Shaq retires

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Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Hakeem never owned Shaq, especially not in that '95 Finals series. That's one of those things that's gotten repeated so many times that it's become "true". They played to a basic dead heat in that series. But Horry, Drexler, Cassell, etc. completely outplayed the Magic guys.

Shaq was quoted in saying he got owned. This is one matchup where the stats completely hide what actually happened. Shaq could not handle Hakeem man-up and when he tried, he got whooped. They had to help a lot which left those shooters open a lot.

The Rockets let Shaq have his points but stayed on everyone else, which is why they won.

pts stats:
The Dream: 31, 34, 31, 35
Shaq: 26, 33, 28, 25

Shaq was the only guy in those playoffs that remotely contained Olajuwon in those playoffs, but Dream just took a ton of shots. Look...I'm not saying that Olajuwon wasn't great, because he was, but so was Shaq. Shaq outrebounded him, blocked more shots, shot 57% from the field, and racked up a ton of assists in that series. He was just as dominant as Olajuwon was.

By the way, Shaq also called Kobe the "best player in the NBA BY FAR"...in 2001. Take what Shaq says with a grain of salt.

I agree, if you compare everything, then Shaq did play well, but a primary reason why HOU dominated was that Shaq could not contain Hakeem and required help. If Shaq was able to man-up on him and hold Hakeem to 20 to 24ppg, then that series could end differently. It was also a surprise because Shaq was such a defensive presence at the time, possibly the most imposing in the league then and Hakeem went through him very easily. I bet that shock to ORL alone got them scrambling because they relied heavily on Shaq controlling the key.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by dobo:
Hakeem's greatness is greatly exaggerated in retrospect, thanks to his brief reign of invincibility and his youtube-friendly dream shake.

Hakeem is my favorite non-Laker ever, but I agree with this.

I don't know, I never hear anyone say Hakeem is the best center ever. It's certainly not exaggerated to the level of Jordan, Magic or Bird.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Hakeem never owned Shaq, especially not in that '95 Finals series. That's one of those things that's gotten repeated so many times that it's become "true". They played to a basic dead heat in that series. But Horry, Drexler, Cassell, etc. completely outplayed the Magic guys.

Shaq was quoted in saying he got owned. This is one matchup where the stats completely hide what actually happened. Shaq could not handle Hakeem man-up and when he tried, he got whooped. They had to help a lot which left those shooters open a lot.

The Rockets let Shaq have his points but stayed on everyone else, which is why they won.

pts stats:
The Dream: 31, 34, 31, 35
Shaq: 26, 33, 28, 25

Shaq was the only guy in those playoffs that remotely contained Olajuwon in those playoffs, but Dream just took a ton of shots. Look...I'm not saying that Olajuwon wasn't great, because he was, but so was Shaq. Shaq outrebounded him, blocked more shots, shot 57% from the field, and racked up a ton of assists in that series. He was just as dominant as Olajuwon was.

By the way, Shaq also called Kobe the "best player in the NBA BY FAR"...in 2001. Take what Shaq says with a grain of salt.

I agree, if you compare everything, then Shaq did play well, but a primary reason why HOU dominated was that Shaq could not contain Hakeem and required help. If Shaq was able to man-up on him and hold Hakeem to 20 to 24ppg, then that series could end differently. It was also a surprise because Shaq was such a defensive presence at the time, possibly the most imposing in the league then and Hakeem went through him very easily. I bet that shock to ORL alone got them scrambling because they relied heavily on Shaq controlling the key.

Hakeem needed help on Shaq too. It was a matchup of two great centers and the both had huge series'. That's a far cry from Olajuwon owning Shaq.

Sixth...you're right that Olajuwon isn't nearly overrated to the degree that the other guys you mentioned are.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Hakeem never owned Shaq, especially not in that '95 Finals series. That's one of those things that's gotten repeated so many times that it's become "true". They played to a basic dead heat in that series. But Horry, Drexler, Cassell, etc. completely outplayed the Magic guys.

Just to clarify, I was referring to DRob not Shaq.

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Hakeem never owned Shaq, especially not in that '95 Finals series. That's one of those things that's gotten repeated so many times that it's become "true". They played to a basic dead heat in that series. But Horry, Drexler, Cassell, etc. completely outplayed the Magic guys.

Just to clarify, I was referring to DRob not Shaq.

Ah, my bad.

Originally posted by dobo:
Hakeem's greatness is greatly exaggerated in retrospect, thanks to his brief reign of invincibility and his youtube-friendly dream shake.

Totally disagree, if anything he's underrated due to his personality. I would contend that at the end of games when it mattered most he was just as reliable, if not moreso than MJ for about a 5 year period. He just wasn't near as flashy.

Hakeem didn't destroy Shaq to the extent that people think but he still outplayed him.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Hakeem never owned Shaq, especially not in that '95 Finals series. That's one of those things that's gotten repeated so many times that it's become "true". They played to a basic dead heat in that series. But Horry, Drexler, Cassell, etc. completely outplayed the Magic guys.

Just to clarify, I was referring to DRob not Shaq.

Ah, my bad.

He's trying to stir things up i tell ya.

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by dobo:
Hakeem's greatness is greatly exaggerated in retrospect, thanks to his brief reign of invincibility and his youtube-friendly dream shake.

Totally disagree, if anything he's underrated due to his personality. I would contend that at the end of games when it mattered most he was just as reliable, if not moreso than MJ for about a 5 year period. He just wasn't near as flashy.

You're both wrong.

Hakeem is properly rated. I don't think anyone consideres him the same tier as Wilt or Russell or Kareem.

But he's in that next, second tier, of great centers.

However, if Jordan didn't retire, Hakeem would have 0 rings.

What is Shaq gonna look like in 5 years when he doesn't have to pretend to stay in basketball shape?

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by dobo:
Hakeem's greatness is greatly exaggerated in retrospect, thanks to his brief reign of invincibility and his youtube-friendly dream shake.

Totally disagree, if anything he's underrated due to his personality. I would contend that at the end of games when it mattered most he was just as reliable, if not moreso than MJ for about a 5 year period. He just wasn't near as flashy.

You're both wrong.

Hakeem is properly rated. I don't think anyone consideres him the same tier as Wilt or Russell or Kareem.

But he's in that next, second tier, of great centers.

However, if Jordan didn't retire, Hakeem would have 0 rings.

I will never agree with that about the rings. Jordan was eliminated by the team Houston swept in 95. He was still great but the team around him was not.
As far as Hakeem being up there with the greats, I don't see why you can't put him there. He was unstoppable offensively and is the all time leader in blocked shots. People forget about defense and he is arguably the greatest ever in that catagory.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by dobo:
Actually, this has got me thinking. Is there a fanbase that has had as adversarial relationship with Shaq as San Antonio?

San Antonio LOVED him when he was in high school and even at LSU. Then he came into San Antonio as a pro and started smack talking the Admiral. Then he joined the Lakers -- the Lakers! -- and started smack talking Duncan and called the Spurs a WNBA team.

In many ways, Robinson was the perfect foil for Shaq. One, he was a boring, God-fearing, all-around nice guy. Two, he was an established superstar, arguably the best center in the league when Shaq joined the league. Three, his style was the opposite of Shaq's. Robinson was a slender, face-the-basket, athletic freak who had decent range. Shaq was a more traditional big; he lived in the post and just physically dominated his opponents on both ends.

Aguably the 2nd best maybe. Hakeem owned him, especially when it mattered most. I like DRob, but he didn't win anything until TD came to town.

I agree, Hakeem was a better player. I honestly believe Tim Duncan, in his prime, would give Hakeem some trouble...but Tim Duncan is a "SF".

Dobo, I think Shaq's animosity towards Robinson was about an issue when Shaq was younger and Robinson denied him an autograph. I remember hearing about something like that.

On another note, am I the only one who believes Tim Duncan should be a top 5 player EVER? Has there been any other play to win multiple championships without a superstar #2? Don't get me wrong, D. Robinson was a top 50 ever but was not the same player during the Spurs 1st championship. Also, how about Tim Duncan's 3rd and 4th rings. He is the only player I can think of to win multiple rings without a dominant sidekick that requires a double-team.

I think it's definitely possible. Duncan has an extremely unique resume. No one outside of perhaps Hakeem in '94 won a title with a supporting cast as weak as Timmy's in '03. His 2 year stretch in the 01-02 and 02-03 seasons was arguably the best 2 year stretch ever, especially for a big. I think there were at least 3 years where Duncan was the best player in the league, something VERY few players can say has been the case with them. He is one of the best, if not THE best defensive players of all time, and he did it without fouling (tragedy that he will finish his career without a defensive player of the year award). That, coupled with his consistent ability to drop 22-25 on any given night on better than 50% shooting, grab 12+ boards, block 2.5+ shots, dish 3.5+ dimes, etc. without any glaring weaknesses (he was never a TERRIBLE free throw shooter and even shot 80% in one of his MVP years) may deserve him to be placed amongst the Jordans, Wilts, and Magics.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone listing Duncan as one of the Top 5 players of all time. He wasn't quite as dominant on the offensive end as most of the other guys that are often mentioned, but he had a tremendous defensive impact on the game, which can't be said about Magic or Bird. He was also a consistently superb rebounder.

I think Magic and Bird get a bit of a pass in the "all-time greatest" discussions because their games were so aesthetically pleasing and because they were so dominant on the offensive end. Their defense gets kinda skimmed over.