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  • thl408
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I just noticed that the 49ers will use that five DL front with different personnel behind it. I am seeing it used with 2LBs + 4DBs (vs 12 personnel), this removes the SAM (Burks). And also with 1LB + 5DBs (vs 11 personnel), this removes the WILL (Greenlaw). So in both cases, they are removing a LB to put in the 5th DL.
  • thl408
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  • Posts: 32,103
This is the type of stuff I was waiting to see from Kyle after having an offseason with CMC on the roster. 22 personnel with both RBs out wide (Deebo in slot). This play should have gone for more yards if not for the good pursuit by NYG.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Love the deep shot to deebo. He is known for his physicality but people forget he has 4.4 speed.

Wilks is putting his mark on the defense, I am a fan of the 5 man front look.

It's not too dissimilar to the old Bears 46 defense. That was all about man-cov across the board and letting their ridiculous front wreak havoc in 1v1 situations.

Agree and I think the only difference would be one less linebacker and one more defensive back. If so, I think its a nice change up from the wide 9 - with only four down linemen.

I don't see how the five DL front is like the Bears 46. The 46 put two LBs + the four DL on the line of scrimmage and brought a safety down into the box. The only thing the two have in common is man coverage.

I said not toooooo dissimilar. The philosophy is the same. Cover the LOS, man-cov and have lots of pressure from it.

Jonny del is 100% right

The similarity is you are creating one on one blocking and covering the alignment with a tweenner hybrid LB/Saftey.

46 worked because your DTs lined straight up over the guards, in the case of the eagles you flexed Reggie White in right on top of the center. You had a hybrid 3-4 type linebacker over the tackle, and your base DE over the left tackle. The linebacker was a choice rush that would blitz if the back stayed in to chip the middle.

At the snap there is no double team blocking. Each guard had to eat the DT one on one...then your poor b*****d of a center had to eat reggie white solo. Teams tried to chip the middle...but unless you are the oilers and had Lo White you are at a massive size disadvantage. The second the back stayed in though...you had that linebacker coming from the edge too....so basically very similar to what we are doing with 5 down lineman.

Back in the day...the WCO would just cut block those dudes and roll the pocket. Today? not so easy.

The 46 got its name from the safety. Doug Plank....you needed hybrid type players because the SS had to man up if your free safety was going to lurk and roam. You needed a dude you could leave alone in coverage...yet could clean up tackle on the edge. That defense was not really a sideline to sideline type defense..there was not a lot of backup to make a tackle. You needed a hybrid type LB with size that could play end/run support/cover...since the entire edge on the strong side of the defense hinged on that one dude instead of the conventional end (when he got flexed over the center).

edit to provide clarity....

The 46 defense had triggers...not sure I made that clear. Your SS and LBers are on the edge. If a team tried to save the middle of the line with RBs or TEs or FBs ie max protect... That would trigger more edge blitzing. That was by design to blitz were the blocking is not at. That whole block inside-out thing. The 46 would send more edge pressure with a "free" path to the QB.

The WCO killed the 46 when we were healthy with cutblocks both KC against the oilers and the 49ers against the bears or it would have been a bigger thing. Both teams also ran with HUGE RBs....49ers ran double FBs in Craig and Rathman. two guys between 230 and 240. KC Had Marcus Allen(@220)(post blocking for Bo Jackson as a FB) and Kimble Anders(230). In that era the 49ers had linemen that were 250-270. So these were BIG RBs.

What you stated about the 46 is all correct. But it doesn't tell me why it's similar to what the 49ers are doing in their five DL front.

How it is similar:

guard-center-guard is forced to single block by alignment in both systems

Tackle is locked by threat of blitz with 46
Tackle is locked by actual DE in 5 man front.

Functionally it is a wash since the 46 was a very blitz heavy defense.

Both defenses had high tier coverage linebackers and an instinctive SS to cover how many bodies are out position compared to a conventional defense.

How it is dissimilar

46 put the best pass rusher over the center

5 man line puts Hargrave over the center (quite possibly our best pass rusher this year)

Only way it would be more similar upfront is we flexed Bosa over the center and put AA back at end again, but we really don't need too we have a ton more talent then any 46 defense I can think of.

in the 46 ideally one tackle blocks "air" and is held in place by the treat of a blitz

with the 5 man line...tackle has to block another person or...well...at least should...

in the 46 you can send the 5th rusher off the edge potentially unblocked

with a 5 man line you. have to send a 6th to do that..
  • thl408
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  • Posts: 32,103
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Love the deep shot to deebo. He is known for his physicality but people forget he has 4.4 speed.

Wilks is putting his mark on the defense, I am a fan of the 5 man front look.

It's not too dissimilar to the old Bears 46 defense. That was all about man-cov across the board and letting their ridiculous front wreak havoc in 1v1 situations.

Agree and I think the only difference would be one less linebacker and one more defensive back. If so, I think its a nice change up from the wide 9 - with only four down linemen.

I don't see how the five DL front is like the Bears 46. The 46 put two LBs + the four DL on the line of scrimmage and brought a safety down into the box. The only thing the two have in common is man coverage.

I said not toooooo dissimilar. The philosophy is the same. Cover the LOS, man-cov and have lots of pressure from it.

Jonny del is 100% right

The similarity is you are creating one on one blocking and covering the alignment with a tweenner hybrid LB/Saftey.

46 worked because your DTs lined straight up over the guards, in the case of the eagles you flexed Reggie White in right on top of the center. You had a hybrid 3-4 type linebacker over the tackle, and your base DE over the left tackle. The linebacker was a choice rush that would blitz if the back stayed in to chip the middle.

At the snap there is no double team blocking. Each guard had to eat the DT one on one...then your poor b*****d of a center had to eat reggie white solo. Teams tried to chip the middle...but unless you are the oilers and had Lo White you are at a massive size disadvantage. The second the back stayed in though...you had that linebacker coming from the edge too....so basically very similar to what we are doing with 5 down lineman.

Back in the day...the WCO would just cut block those dudes and roll the pocket. Today? not so easy.

The 46 got its name from the safety. Doug Plank....you needed hybrid type players because the SS had to man up if your free safety was going to lurk and roam. You needed a dude you could leave alone in coverage...yet could clean up tackle on the edge. That defense was not really a sideline to sideline type defense..there was not a lot of backup to make a tackle. You needed a hybrid type LB with size that could play end/run support/cover...since the entire edge on the strong side of the defense hinged on that one dude instead of the conventional end (when he got flexed over the center).

edit to provide clarity....

The 46 defense had triggers...not sure I made that clear. Your SS and LBers are on the edge. If a team tried to save the middle of the line with RBs or TEs or FBs ie max protect... That would trigger more edge blitzing. That was by design to blitz were the blocking is not at. That whole block inside-out thing. The 46 would send more edge pressure with a "free" path to the QB.

The WCO killed the 46 when we were healthy with cutblocks both KC against the oilers and the 49ers against the bears or it would have been a bigger thing. Both teams also ran with HUGE RBs....49ers ran double FBs in Craig and Rathman. two guys between 230 and 240. KC Had Marcus Allen(@220)(post blocking for Bo Jackson as a FB) and Kimble Anders(230). In that era the 49ers had linemen that were 250-270. So these were BIG RBs.

What you stated about the 46 is all correct. But it doesn't tell me why it's similar to what the 49ers are doing in their five DL front.

How it is similar:

guard-center-guard is forced to single block by alignment in both systems

Tackle is locked by threat of blitz with 46
Tackle is locked by actual DE in 5 man front.

Functionally it is a wash since the 46 was a very blitz heavy defense.

Both defenses had high tier coverage linebackers and an instinctive SS to cover how many bodies are out position compared to a conventional defense.

How it is dissimilar

46 put the best pass rusher over the center

5 man line puts Hargrave over the center (quite possibly our best pass rusher this year)

Only way it would be more similar upfront is we flexed Bosa over the center and put AA back at end again, but we really don't need too we have a ton more talent then any 46 defense I can think of.

in the 46 ideally one tackle blocks "air" and is held in place by the treat of a blitz

with the 5 man line...tackle has to block another person or...well...at least should...

in the 46 you can send the 5th rusher off the edge potentially unblocked

with a 5 man line you. have to send a 6th to do that..

I agree with the bolded. We may be getting into semantics here. You and jd are saying they are similar. Yes they are similar, but there are differences. You are focused on the similar parts, I am focused on the differences. The 46 was strange with how it aligned two LBs to the offensive strongside - that's weird, but that's what made it unique and unlike the 49ers five DL front.
Is our 5 man rush susceptible to the same thing as the 46?

What is the weakness of the 46 defense?
A weakness of the 46 defense is that with eight defensive players lining up near the line of scrimmage and only three in the secondary, it leaves areas open for receivers to catch passes. Also, timed passes can be thrown before the players blitzing have a chance to reach the quarterback.
  • 9moon
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Originally posted by ChaunceyGardner:
Is our 5 man rush susceptible to the same thing as the 46?

What is the weakness of the 46 defense?
A weakness of the 46 defense is that with eight defensive players lining up near the line of scrimmage and only three in the secondary, it leaves areas open for receivers to catch passes. Also, timed passes can be thrown before the players blitzing have a chance to reach the quarterback.

46's BIGGEST weakness is that those secondary best be a very good tackler..

One of the reason why Marino beat them was that he got the ball quickly by not using a lot of play action fakes and some missed tackles by the secondary..
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,103
Originally posted by ChaunceyGardner:
Is our 5 man rush susceptible to the same thing as the 46?

What is the weakness of the 46 defense?
A weakness of the 46 defense is that with eight defensive players lining up near the line of scrimmage and only three in the secondary, it leaves areas open for receivers to catch passes. Also, timed passes can be thrown before the players blitzing have a chance to reach the quarterback.

What the 49ers are doing, they always have at least 4 DBs on the field.
Any man coverage call, with a single high safety, shares the same weakness - the CBs are on an island.

This is with 5DL, 2LB, 4DB


This is with 5DL, 1 LB, 5 DB
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Love the deep shot to deebo. He is known for his physicality but people forget he has 4.4 speed.

Wilks is putting his mark on the defense, I am a fan of the 5 man front look.

It's not too dissimilar to the old Bears 46 defense. That was all about man-cov across the board and letting their ridiculous front wreak havoc in 1v1 situations.

Agree and I think the only difference would be one less linebacker and one more defensive back. If so, I think its a nice change up from the wide 9 - with only four down linemen.

I don't see how the five DL front is like the Bears 46. The 46 put two LBs + the four DL on the line of scrimmage and brought a safety down into the box. The only thing the two have in common is man coverage.

I said not toooooo dissimilar. The philosophy is the same. Cover the LOS, man-cov and have lots of pressure from it.

Jonny del is 100% right

The similarity is you are creating one on one blocking and covering the alignment with a tweenner hybrid LB/Saftey.

46 worked because your DTs lined straight up over the guards, in the case of the eagles you flexed Reggie White in right on top of the center. You had a hybrid 3-4 type linebacker over the tackle, and your base DE over the left tackle. The linebacker was a choice rush that would blitz if the back stayed in to chip the middle.

At the snap there is no double team blocking. Each guard had to eat the DT one on one...then your poor b*****d of a center had to eat reggie white solo. Teams tried to chip the middle...but unless you are the oilers and had Lo White you are at a massive size disadvantage. The second the back stayed in though...you had that linebacker coming from the edge too....so basically very similar to what we are doing with 5 down lineman.

Back in the day...the WCO would just cut block those dudes and roll the pocket. Today? not so easy.

The 46 got its name from the safety. Doug Plank....you needed hybrid type players because the SS had to man up if your free safety was going to lurk and roam. You needed a dude you could leave alone in coverage...yet could clean up tackle on the edge. That defense was not really a sideline to sideline type defense..there was not a lot of backup to make a tackle. You needed a hybrid type LB with size that could play end/run support/cover...since the entire edge on the strong side of the defense hinged on that one dude instead of the conventional end (when he got flexed over the center).

edit to provide clarity....

The 46 defense had triggers...not sure I made that clear. Your SS and LBers are on the edge. If a team tried to save the middle of the line with RBs or TEs or FBs ie max protect... That would trigger more edge blitzing. That was by design to blitz were the blocking is not at. That whole block inside-out thing. The 46 would send more edge pressure with a "free" path to the QB.

The WCO killed the 46 when we were healthy with cutblocks both KC against the oilers and the 49ers against the bears or it would have been a bigger thing. Both teams also ran with HUGE RBs....49ers ran double FBs in Craig and Rathman. two guys between 230 and 240. KC Had Marcus Allen(@220)(post blocking for Bo Jackson as a FB) and Kimble Anders(230). In that era the 49ers had linemen that were 250-270. So these were BIG RBs.

What you stated about the 46 is all correct. But it doesn't tell me why it's similar to what the 49ers are doing in their five DL front.

How it is similar:

guard-center-guard is forced to single block by alignment in both systems

Tackle is locked by threat of blitz with 46
Tackle is locked by actual DE in 5 man front.

Functionally it is a wash since the 46 was a very blitz heavy defense.

Both defenses had high tier coverage linebackers and an instinctive SS to cover how many bodies are out position compared to a conventional defense.

How it is dissimilar

46 put the best pass rusher over the center

5 man line puts Hargrave over the center (quite possibly our best pass rusher this year)

Only way it would be more similar upfront is we flexed Bosa over the center and put AA back at end again, but we really don't need too we have a ton more talent then any 46 defense I can think of.

in the 46 ideally one tackle blocks "air" and is held in place by the treat of a blitz

with the 5 man line...tackle has to block another person or...well...at least should...

in the 46 you can send the 5th rusher off the edge potentially unblocked

with a 5 man line you. have to send a 6th to do that..

I agree with the bolded. We may be getting into semantics here. You and jd are saying they are similar. Yes they are similar, but there are differences. You are focused on the similar parts, I am focused on the differences. The 46 was strange with how it aligned two LBs to the offensive strongside - that's weird, but that's what made it unique and unlike the 49ers five DL front.

That mostly depended on down and distance, some times its more balanced then other times....but it was not a sideline to sideline defense...at least not the way I remember it (mostly the Philly/Cards version/Green Bay versions they where all different)....I remember it coming down hill mostly. They ran it in nickel too so It was all over the place.

It was a 4-3 defense, but it is probably best to think of it as a 5-3-3 defense. The SS was either the strong side or weak side backer, and the LOLB was really your LDE.

I remember Seth Joyner was the DE for a while making it a 4-4-3, I remember he was relabeled as SS and it made it a 4-2-5...keep in mind it did not change a whole lot just really re-labled strong side and weak side coverage. Joyner was a CB on the Cards for like 4 games..... So a dude was played at DE-LBER-SS and now CB...basically making it as a 4-2-5 even though all of these combos really lined up as a 4-4-3 but performed as a 5-3-3.

Firz Shurmer ( Buddy Ryan understudy) did some of this too with his zone blitz... He brought in Seth Joyner and reggie white. Used Leeroy Butler as that 4th LB/Safety hybrid...he ended with 7 or 8 sacks if I recall correctly. the 46 evolved to the "zone blitz" but it was the same concept get single blocking . They would drop the end into cover instead of dropping the hybrid LB/END into coverage to get a tackle to block air, then send the SS on a blitz on the other side unblocked. Reggie white got time on the center from time to time...

our 5-3 is not the 46 but it kinda does have parts of it....
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Love the deep shot to deebo. He is known for his physicality but people forget he has 4.4 speed.

Wilks is putting his mark on the defense, I am a fan of the 5 man front look.

It's not too dissimilar to the old Bears 46 defense. That was all about man-cov across the board and letting their ridiculous front wreak havoc in 1v1 situations.

Agree and I think the only difference would be one less linebacker and one more defensive back. If so, I think its a nice change up from the wide 9 - with only four down linemen.

I don't see how the five DL front is like the Bears 46. The 46 put two LBs + the four DL on the line of scrimmage and brought a safety down into the box. The only thing the two have in common is man coverage.

I said not toooooo dissimilar. The philosophy is the same. Cover the LOS, man-cov and have lots of pressure from it.

When I think of the 46, I think of its unique alignment up front. So in that sense, I don't see the similarity, neither in personnel or alignment. I also think the 49ers five man front is set out to pressure the QB whereas the 46's primary mission was to stuff the run, hence the 46's box safety for +1 in run defense.

When I think of the 46 I think of what Mike Singletary said about it, "The 46 defense was all about...pressure."

I'm meaning it's not too different from a philosphy standpoint, not necessarily execution. The 46 was going to cover up your lineman, give very simple responsibilities and man up behind it. It stressed the OL to win their 1 on 1's and allowed the talent of the defensive line to shine. Like was said, if a TE stayed in to block, his coverage man blitzed. If a RB stayed in to block, his coverage man blitzed. It was always going to have 1 on 1 matchups in pass pro and then take away so many of the angle blocks that teams like to run. The 46 was really a 6-2 front with Plank functioning like a LB. But, you had every lineman and the TE covered up.
In that way, our 5-2 is very similar as it essentially functions like a 5-3. With us in a 5-3 and man-cov you're essentially covering up the TE still, just not fully up on the LOS.
In that way, technically we're in a 5-2 but the play style and thought behind it is still very similar and creates similar problems for the offense.

Being that we're in C-1 with no lurk, it's always going to create a +1 in the run game as well. Even if a team comes out in Nickel and spreads you out, they're 6 on 7 in the run game.
Originally posted by ChaunceyGardner:
Is our 5 man rush susceptible to the same thing as the 46?

What is the weakness of the 46 defense?
A weakness of the 46 defense is that with eight defensive players lining up near the line of scrimmage and only three in the secondary, it leaves areas open for receivers to catch passes. Also, timed passes can be thrown before the players blitzing have a chance to reach the quarterback.

Yeah you can swing but if you miss the counter punch is coming.

the 46 relied on rarer skill sets too...not anyone could run it

You need legit 4-3 ends ....so in that era it means easy to find DTs....but hard to find DEs. Reggie White and Ricard Dent basically made that defense...so you needed a HOF DE.

You also needed at least one legit 3-4 OLBER. Again hard to find a coverage threat and a rush threat.

Then to make sure it would not fall apart you needed a hybrid SS that could cover like a CB, add run support like a SS and blitz like a 3-4 OLBER.

That SS is where the name 46 comes from. It was the number of the SS on the Bears. Doug Plank.

Keep in mind...yes Philly was bad ass with that defense, 85 bears were bad ass with that defense, Green Bay was bad ass with parts of that defense.... but that defense failed ALOT in an era that teams ran the football a lot....with blocking TEs and FBs on the field.

In this day and age we watch a passing league, it would get destroyed and gutted with a quickness.
[ Edited by Dshearn on Sep 27, 2023 at 11:13 AM ]

Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by ChaunceyGardner:
Is our 5 man rush susceptible to the same thing as the 46?

What is the weakness of the 46 defense?
A weakness of the 46 defense is that with eight defensive players lining up near the line of scrimmage and only three in the secondary, it leaves areas open for receivers to catch passes. Also, timed passes can be thrown before the players blitzing have a chance to reach the quarterback.

What the 49ers are doing, they always have at least 4 DBs on the field.
Any man coverage call, with a single high safety, shares the same weakness - the CBs are on an island.

This is with 5DL, 2LB, 4DB

This is with 5DL, 1 LB, 5 DB

This is a really good look at it, Armstead and Kinlaw are playing more 4i but you swap those for a 3 and it looks realllllll similar to the 46 here:


4i vs 3 tech on that front also has a lot to do with the modern NFL and Zone schemes. A 4i seems to be the go-to everyone is using to defeat wide zone.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 32,103
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by iLLEST209ER:
Love the deep shot to deebo. He is known for his physicality but people forget he has 4.4 speed.

Wilks is putting his mark on the defense, I am a fan of the 5 man front look.

It's not too dissimilar to the old Bears 46 defense. That was all about man-cov across the board and letting their ridiculous front wreak havoc in 1v1 situations.

Agree and I think the only difference would be one less linebacker and one more defensive back. If so, I think its a nice change up from the wide 9 - with only four down linemen.

I don't see how the five DL front is like the Bears 46. The 46 put two LBs + the four DL on the line of scrimmage and brought a safety down into the box. The only thing the two have in common is man coverage.

I said not toooooo dissimilar. The philosophy is the same. Cover the LOS, man-cov and have lots of pressure from it.

Jonny del is 100% right

The similarity is you are creating one on one blocking and covering the alignment with a tweenner hybrid LB/Saftey.

46 worked because your DTs lined straight up over the guards, in the case of the eagles you flexed Reggie White in right on top of the center. You had a hybrid 3-4 type linebacker over the tackle, and your base DE over the left tackle. The linebacker was a choice rush that would blitz if the back stayed in to chip the middle.

At the snap there is no double team blocking. Each guard had to eat the DT one on one...then your poor b*****d of a center had to eat reggie white solo. Teams tried to chip the middle...but unless you are the oilers and had Lo White you are at a massive size disadvantage. The second the back stayed in though...you had that linebacker coming from the edge too....so basically very similar to what we are doing with 5 down lineman.

Back in the day...the WCO would just cut block those dudes and roll the pocket. Today? not so easy.

The 46 got its name from the safety. Doug Plank....you needed hybrid type players because the SS had to man up if your free safety was going to lurk and roam. You needed a dude you could leave alone in coverage...yet could clean up tackle on the edge. That defense was not really a sideline to sideline type defense..there was not a lot of backup to make a tackle. You needed a hybrid type LB with size that could play end/run support/cover...since the entire edge on the strong side of the defense hinged on that one dude instead of the conventional end (when he got flexed over the center).

edit to provide clarity....

The 46 defense had triggers...not sure I made that clear. Your SS and LBers are on the edge. If a team tried to save the middle of the line with RBs or TEs or FBs ie max protect... That would trigger more edge blitzing. That was by design to blitz were the blocking is not at. That whole block inside-out thing. The 46 would send more edge pressure with a "free" path to the QB.

The WCO killed the 46 when we were healthy with cutblocks both KC against the oilers and the 49ers against the bears or it would have been a bigger thing. Both teams also ran with HUGE RBs....49ers ran double FBs in Craig and Rathman. two guys between 230 and 240. KC Had Marcus Allen(@220)(post blocking for Bo Jackson as a FB) and Kimble Anders(230). In that era the 49ers had linemen that were 250-270. So these were BIG RBs.

What you stated about the 46 is all correct. But it doesn't tell me why it's similar to what the 49ers are doing in their five DL front.

How it is similar:

guard-center-guard is forced to single block by alignment in both systems

Tackle is locked by threat of blitz with 46
Tackle is locked by actual DE in 5 man front.

Functionally it is a wash since the 46 was a very blitz heavy defense.

Both defenses had high tier coverage linebackers and an instinctive SS to cover how many bodies are out position compared to a conventional defense.

How it is dissimilar

46 put the best pass rusher over the center

5 man line puts Hargrave over the center (quite possibly our best pass rusher this year)

Only way it would be more similar upfront is we flexed Bosa over the center and put AA back at end again, but we really don't need too we have a ton more talent then any 46 defense I can think of.

in the 46 ideally one tackle blocks "air" and is held in place by the treat of a blitz

with the 5 man line...tackle has to block another person or...well...at least should...

in the 46 you can send the 5th rusher off the edge potentially unblocked

with a 5 man line you. have to send a 6th to do that..

I agree with the bolded. We may be getting into semantics here. You and jd are saying they are similar. Yes they are similar, but there are differences. You are focused on the similar parts, I am focused on the differences. The 46 was strange with how it aligned two LBs to the offensive strongside - that's weird, but that's what made it unique and unlike the 49ers five DL front.

That mostly depended on down and distance, some times its more balanced then other times....but it was not a sideline to sideline defense...at least not the way I remember it (mostly the Philly/Cards version/Green Bay versions they where all different)....I remember it coming down hill mostly. They ran it in nickel too so It was all over the place.

It was a 4-3 defense, but it is probably best to think of it as a 5-3-3 defense. The SS was either the strong side or weak side backer, and the LOLB was really your LDE.

I remember Seth Joyner was the DE for a while making it a 4-4-3, I remember he was relabeled as SS and it made it a 4-2-5...keep in mind it did not change a whole lot just really re-labled strong side and weak side coverage. Joyner was a CB on the Cards for like 4 games..... So a dude was played at DE-LBER-SS and now CB...basically making it as a 4-2-5 even though all of these combos really lined up as a 4-4-3 but performed as a 5-3-3.

Firz Shurmer ( Buddy Ryan understudy) did some of this too with his zone blitz... He brought in Seth Joyner and reggie white. Used Leeroy Butler as that 4th LB/Safety hybrid...he ended with 7 or 8 sacks if I recall correctly. the 46 evolved to the "zone blitz" but it was the same concept get single blocking . They would drop the end into cover instead of dropping the hybrid LB/END into coverage to get a tackle to block air, then send the SS on a blitz on the other side unblocked. Reggie white got time on the center from time to time...

our 5-3 is not the 46 but it kinda does have parts of it....

As far as philosophy in defending the pass, a big similarity is trying to apply pressure right in the QB's face by forcing the Center to pass block 1on1. You mentioned this above. Most fronts allow the Center to help one of his guards in pass pro.
To me, what makes the 49ers five DL front unique is that there is no disguising as to who the five rushers are. Typical blitz packages try to disguise who the 5th rusher is - a LB, or a slot CB, or a safety. The 49ers are deliberate with what is about to happen.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
Was really hoping to see a breakdown of the first drive and see why that was so different from the rest of the game. But basically all we saw were the better highlights.

Jonny I am sorry for ever calling you a Jimmy homer or defender. Clearly you just dont like to highlight bad plays regardless of who the QB is. I hope you accept my apology.

I've always said, with the channel it's about the why's and how's. What was the outcome and how did we get there? Why did things end up the way they did? We scored 30 points, Brock threw for 300+ yards and 2 TD's and made some elite level throws. To me, looking at the misses on a day like that is just critiquing to critique.

Every QB will have misses. The overall story was extremely positive. I've always said this is what goes into my thought process.

I've shown Jimmy's negative plays when it was a low scoring game or we lost and I've covered every one of his picks.

To me, a big story was that Brock looked AWFUL in the first drive and was pretty much incredible after that. So I thought it would have been interesting to really break down what went wrong early in effort to see how things changed. Maybe not many of your subscribers agree. Just my two cents. Appreciate your work. Dont want you to think I dont.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
This is a really good look at it, Armstead and Kinlaw are playing more 4i but you swap those for a 3 and it looks realllllll similar to the 46 here:


4i vs 3 tech on that front also has a lot to do with the modern NFL and Zone schemes. A 4i seems to be the go-to everyone is using to defeat wide zone.

heheheh I forgot about that!

Dwight Clark use to come off the line in a 3 point stance....

For the younger guys....that is a WR (87) lined up in a 3 point stance and he use to do it all the time......even outside......
Originally posted by thl408:
As far as philosophy in defending the pass, a big similarity is trying to apply pressure right in the QB's face by forcing the Center to pass block 1on1. You mentioned this above. Most fronts allow the Center to help one of his guards in pass pro.
To me, what makes the 49ers five DL front unique is that there is no disguising as to who the five rushers are. Typical blitz packages try to disguise who the 5th rusher is - a LB, or a slot CB, or a safety. The 49ers are deliberate with what is about to happen.

I love it as a part time wrinkle because it made Kinlaw look legit and leverages our interior guys....

it is a win/win if we dont go crazy with it.
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