Dallas Cowboys QB Trey Lance Thread

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Are you seeing this guys? He's actually arguing TL > Hurts as a runner.

You have the worst reading comprehension I have seen in my 15+ years on message boards. Jesus Christ dude. SMFH.

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
You have the worst reading comprehension I have seen in my 15+ years on message boards. Jesus Christ dude. SMFH.

You guys are taking this s**t overboard.

'I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.'

That was the initial quote. There are clear implications there, not to mention the fact that he made a statistical argument in response to faithful's post (where faithful said Trey can't run as well as Jalen).

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I literally didn't. This guy made up a straw man.

I did later point out that Trey breaks more tackles per run and has more yards per contact per attempt. But that information is with a small sample size and may only mean a little. Regardless, it IS a fact that Lance is pretty good doing those QB runs up the middle, and he's CERTAINLY comfortable doing it. Which is what I originally said, which for some asinine reason, Faithful claimed I said he was a better runner than Hurts.

I feel like I'm talking to a zoo exhibit sometimes here. Why is it so hard to actually read a post?

lol straw man, you literally admit in your second paragraph, opening line, you did create an entire post with numbers reflecting TL is a better runner. You then get hurt (pun intended?) when someone draws this conclusion. Just say what you mean. When I initially posted, I said "if" you feel on they are on same level, I gave you a chance to say you didn't.

we need to stop putting TL and Hurts in the same sentence in here guys, no more Josh Allen either
he ain't those guys, doesn't have to be either
he will need to flourish throwing the ball

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
lol straw man, you literally admit in your second paragraph, opening line, you did create an entire post with numbers reflecting TL is a better runner. You then get hurt (pun intended?) when someone draws this conclusion. Just say what you mean. When I initially posted, I said "if" you feel on they are on same level, I gave you a chance to say you didn't.

we need to stop putting TL and Hurts in the same sentence in here guys, no more Josh Allen either
he ain't those guys, doesn't have to be either
he will need to flourish throwing the ball

What a waste of time, lol.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I think he just needs one or two more years tops. Most of his growth will come from playing. One more year on a winning team while spending another off-season with Christensen will probably do him wonders.

I'll say this though: if it's a tossup between Trey and Sam for the number 2 spot, I'm giving it to Trey so I can use him in spot gimmick situations where we can threaten a QB power play. Not sure on the new QB rules though, but if I have to have one and they're even, I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.

lol.. and who would that be?

Clearly Trey. Trey has been used as a bulldozer his entire life at QB, including in the NFL, and it worked in the NFL. His injury was a freak accident. Much like Jimmy's.

lord help you if you are watching Jalen Hurts and you are watching Trey Lance and you think they are on the same level, running the football
I am just floored by this thread on a daily basis

Right.

Attempts per broken tackle:
Hurts: 20.4
Trey: 8.0
(Lower is better; Lamar Jackson was also 8.0 last year. Jimmy had 46 in 2019. Josh Allen was 10.2 in 2021 and 24.2 last year).

Yards after contact per attempt (each year of their career):
Hurts: 1.1, 1.0, 0.8
Trey: 1.4, 1.1

Trey runs through contact more.
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I know it's hard to set aside your intuition and opinion and actually look at observable reality, but you may want to try it at some point. Trey is solid at QB power and draws straight up the gut. It's what he's good at as a runner.

This right here:

Not this:

Out of curiosity I noticed you did every year of their career for their YAC but not for Broken tackles. Is it because it didn't fit your argument?

Trey's career attempts/ BT is 27 by far more than Jalen's 17 attempts/BT

No. It was because broken tackles happen very rarely for QBs (almost every QB is in the single digits each year), and you can have ten rushing yards off of 1 broken tackle, and consequently it felt stupid to include a year in which Trey didn't even have a single broken tackle. Especially considering that DIVIDING BY ZERO IS MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE in the ring of real numbers.

When I talk about math I try to avoid dividing by zero. Just not my thing. Some people are comfortable with things that are mathematically undefined. I am not. Usually.

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Regardless, the more important number is by far YAC.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
I literally didn't. This guy made up a straw man.

I did later point out that Trey breaks more tackles per run and has more yards per contact per attempt. But that information is with a small sample size and may only mean a little. Regardless, it IS a fact that Lance is pretty good doing those QB runs up the middle, and he's CERTAINLY comfortable doing it. Which is what I originally said, which for some asinine reason, Faithful claimed I said he was a better runner than Hurts.

I feel like I'm talking to a zoo exhibit sometimes here. Why is it so hard to actually read a post?

lol straw man, you literally admit in your second paragraph, opening line, you did create an entire post with numbers reflecting TL is a better runner. You then get hurt (pun intended?) when someone draws this conclusion. Just say what you mean. When I initially posted, I said "if" you feel on they are on same level, I gave you a chance to say you didn't.

we need to stop putting TL and Hurts in the same sentence in here guys, no more Josh Allen either
he ain't those guys, doesn't have to be either
he will need to flourish throwing the ball

The only thing I said that is even remotely close to that is that "Trey runs through contact more," and what I meant by that is according to the data, on a per rush attempt he gets more yards after contact. That does NOT mean he is a better runner. It means he gets more yards after contact based on the available data. Which he does, thus far, in their respective careers.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by SteveWallacesHelmet:
You have the worst reading comprehension I have seen in my 15+ years on message boards. Jesus Christ dude. SMFH.

You guys are taking this s**t overboard.

'I'm going with the guy comfortable of doing what Jalen Hurts does in Philly.'

That was the initial quote. There are clear implications there, not to mention the fact that he made a statistical argument in response to faithful's post (where faithful said Trey can't run as well as Jalen).

Yeah that was in reference to THE PLAY CALLS. Like the QB power sneak the Eagles run, which Trey ran something similar about three thousand times last year before breaking his ankle. Like are you serious? As for the rest regarding the statistics, it was in response to notion Faithless' was implying that Trey is not a good runner. AT NO POINT AT ALL EVER have I stated that Trey was a BETTER runner than Hurts. He's simply the type of guy who can run similar PLAY CALLS. Kind of like how Nate Davis is the kind of guy who can run similar plays that John Elway ran (long developing play-action with a super deep post). That does not mean even a little bit that Etan Sivad is as good a QB as John Elway.

Originally posted by riverrunzthruit:

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Are you seeing this guys? He's actually arguing TL > Hurts as a runner.

That's literally a false statement.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Yeah that was in reference to THE PLAY CALLS. Like the QB power sneak the Eagles run, which Trey ran something similar about three thousand times last year before breaking his ankle. Like are you serious? As for the rest regarding the statistics, it was in response to notion Faithless' was implying that Trey is not a good runner. AT NO POINT AT ALL EVER have I stated that Trey was a BETTER runner than Hurts. He's simply the type of guy who can run similar PLAY CALLS. Kind of like how Nate Davis is the kind of guy who can run similar plays that John Elway ran (long developing play-action with a super deep post). That does not mean even a little bit that Etan Sivad is as good a QB as John Elway.

Buddy, I'm done with this conversation. I'm not here to argue about posters and reading others do it constantly is annoying… that's why I said something. He didn't initially claim you said Trey was good a runner as Hurts, or better. He said lord help you if you think he is, and I think that could be reasonably inferred from your very vague comment. I understood what you were saying the first time. That's why I had my own response to your post.

Originally posted by SmokeyJoe:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
Yeah that was in reference to THE PLAY CALLS. Like the QB power sneak the Eagles run, which Trey ran something similar about three thousand times last year before breaking his ankle. Like are you serious? As for the rest regarding the statistics, it was in response to notion Faithless' was implying that Trey is not a good runner. AT NO POINT AT ALL EVER have I stated that Trey was a BETTER runner than Hurts. He's simply the type of guy who can run similar PLAY CALLS. Kind of like how Nate Davis is the kind of guy who can run similar plays that John Elway ran (long developing play-action with a super deep post). That does not mean even a little bit that Etan Sivad is as good a QB as John Elway.

Buddy, I'm done with this conversation. I'm not here to argue about posters and reading others do it constantly is annoying… that's why I said something. He didn't initially claim you said Trey was good a runner as Hurts, or better. He said lord help you if think he is, and I think that could be reasonably inferred from your very vague comment. I understood what you were saying the first time. That's why I had my own response to your post.

When we talking about "running" something in the context of football, we mean executing a type of play. Presumably we are all football fans here. When we say Jimmy Garoppolo is the type of guy who is capable of running what Tom Brady ran, we are not saying Jimmy is as good as Brady. We are saying he is the type of QB who can execute a similar offense. Quick screens. Slant/flat concepts. Occasional play-action. Tom Brady runs that. Jimmy is capable of running that. At no point ever is it reasonable to then infer they are the same level of quarterback.

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:
When we talking about "running" something in the context of football, we mean executing a type of play. Presumably we are all football fans here. When we say Jimmy Garoppolo is the type of guy who is capable of running what Tom Brady ran, we are not saying Jimmy is as good as Brady. We are saying he is the type of QB who can execute a similar offense. Quick screens. Slant/flat concepts. Occasional play-action. Tom Brady runs that. Jimmy is capable of running that. At no point ever is it reasonable to then infer they are the same level of quarterback.

I wouldn't at all agree with the comment that Jimmy G is capable of running what Tom Brady ran specifically because he isn't as skilled a player. He can do some of what Tom Brady can do, just as Trey can do some of what Hurts can do. You made a blanket statement. I understood what you were saying. Aside from that it was overboard to attack his reading comprehension when you made a vague comment that could be interpreted multiple ways.

I don't have a problem with your reply anyway. It was the other guy(s) who went flat out into making it about the poster and added legitimately zero substance to the conversation. I promise you those guys aren't perfect with their reading comprehension. Had to explain how a comma worked to one of them, and I did it without being a d******d and hijacking the conversation.

Originally posted by krizay:
Out of curiosity I noticed you did every year of their career for their YAC but not for Broken tackles. Is it because it didn't fit your argument?

Trey's career attempts/ BT is 27 by far more than Jalen's 17 attempts/BT

Golden didn't get the memo that only negative stats can be posted

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 5_Golden_Rings:

Originally posted by Bay2Bay9erAllday:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I disagree to a point. Nothing about Kyle's player acquisition (until Trey) has demonstrated anything but the opposite. All 3 cone, short area quick and RAC receivers, receiving backs, run blockers, etc.

That doesn't mean he doesn't want to set up shot plays esp. if he happens to have a deep shot talent but he's much more conservative and controlled with them.

In addition, IIRC, it was Maiocco who asked him about that and he was pretty annoyed and went into what I noted above.

I'm sure if he had Tyreek Hill, Julio Jones or Jerry Rice, he'd use that skill set more. His predecessor did want that. Here? I'm not seeing it in actions in the personnel he's brought in after 7 years. Do you?

I get what your point. It does appear like Kyle acquire WR to get QB quick options. Which also helps out OL PP. especially now a days when pass rushing is relentless.

Also, reminds me of a conversation I seen on Twitter recently regarding WCO. I know Kyle has evolved from the bill Walsh early days, but I still believe he holds some of the same principles.

Bill Walsh's great discovery was that decreasing air yards increased cmp %, 1st down conversion rate, yards per attempt, points per drive, and QB rating.

Spread the gospel my fellow WCO acolytes pic.twitter.com/WxXS14X0oe

— Danny G (@DannyG_49) June 1, 2023

pic.twitter.com/njhdV4AnKS

— Allan Basso (@Endzone51) June 1, 2023

Decreasing air yards also increases YAC. Last year for every 1 yard reduction in intended air yards resulted in ~0.6 extra YAC. pic.twitter.com/rfOI10dgK4

— Sensible Moderate (@sensiblemoderat) June 1, 2023

I thought I'd just throw in this funny video from Simms regarding his power throws lol

pic.twitter.com/RTGsZKPJjX

— Allan Basso (@Endzone51) June 1, 2023

"It's not the f**king West Coast Offense." - Kyle Shanahan.

LMAO. Except all the terminology, plays and philosophy, it sure isn't. It is inverse though in that it's still more run to set up the pass vs. Walsh who was more pass to set up the run.

I mean how often do we see posters bring up plays from Walsh years to show parallels to the plays being ran now.

Of course, no one truly runs a west coast offense like Bill did. By now, It's all just variations of it. But they do keep some of the principles.

Niners816 has his entire playbook. It's WCO. Sure he'll modify things and add things. But even the terminology is still WCO. But it's Kyle...so he probably wants it named after him because it's unique to him. Let's call it the West Cancun Offense and everyone is happy.

There are more or less only three terminology systems used widespread in the NFL: digit, Walsh, and Erhardt-Perkins. A terminology system is not an offensive scheme. When Mike Shanahan came to the 49ers, he changed his terminology to the WCO terminology, but kept most of the Bronco's/Raider's passing concepts (the only obvious change is a removal of shotgun because of Steve Young's preference), and kept the 49ers run offenes. Kyle cut his teeth on Jon Gruden's and Mike Shanahan's scheme. That is why Kyle's actual offense is really an amalgam of all the successful offensive concepts in NFL history. That's actually probably the real reason he said he doesn't run the West Coast Offense. Because he doesn't. He's taken elements from everything that works, and if there's anything that obviously lingers form previous offenses, it's Mike Shanahan's zone-run scheme.

Regardless, terminology does not determine what a scheme is. The West Coast Offense, the REAL West Coast Offense, utilizes balanced formations and short passes in place of the run to control the ball. Kyle's offense using unbalanced formations and the run and short passes to set up the DEEP pass. But every now and then you'll see an old Bill Walsh play ripped right from the 80s. Because Kyle doesn't run one offense. He runs them all, with, again, the only real exception is the zone-run scheme. But even that isn't gospel with him, as he'll throw in man-blocking and other key changes from time to time.

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Regarding those playbooks, some of those playbooks are available on the internet, or at least they used to be. Mike Holmgren's playbook (the ACTUAL WCO) is different from Kyle's. It's even different from Mike Shanahan's including terminology (for example, Mike Holmgren called a split back formation "Red" and Mike Shanahan called it "Split"; some where the same, such as "double wing")

That's perfectly fair. The dude is always evolving and has been an OC for 40 years. He doesn't have a Greg Roman hodge podge playbook. I just think the plays and terminology are grounded mostly in WCO foundation/principles.

But he can call it whatever he wants...or doesn't want.

Appreciate the discussion.

It's always a fun conversation. Here is some fun stuff:

1985 49ers:
https://www.footballxos.com/download/1985-san-francisco-49ers-west-coast-offense-bill-walsh-pdf/

2000 Seahawks:
https://www.footballxos.com/download/2000-seattle-seahawks-offense-pdf/

Notice that even 15 years later, for example, "Red" means split formation. In a Kyle's Falcon playbook I've had, "Red" was used for split, but for some other 2 back formations, instead of colors like Walsh and Holmgren, he just used the description of the formation. For example, instead of "Green" for I, Shanahan just used I-Right, Strong, Weak, etc.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=1dQN43WO-xoyE0kWFE9ZwPZP4MrTDFUdQ

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But what I think is important here is that neither terminology nor playbooks define an offensive system. Mike Martz had the same terminology as the 1990s Cowboys, but the Rams were definitely running a different offense. Rather than I-form run to set up the deep pass that Norv Turner favored, this was a pass to set up the pass offense, with zone runs often from a single back set sprinkled in to finish games. You didn't see the same spread formations, motions, empty sets and third and long offense on first down with the Cowboys that you saw with the Rams.

Conversely, the 1990s Packers were definitely running the West Coast Offense. The major change they had was moving from a split back run game to an I-formation run game. But the 49ers also went to that with Steve Mariucci, so by the late 90s at least two teams were running the closest thing to a true WCO there had been since Bill Walsh.

But if you ask Steve Young, terminology, plays, even play-calling style wasn't what made the West Coast Offense. It was marrying the QB's footwork to the routes that really defined it. And I hate to say it, but that isn't really something you see today with so much of the passing game based on the shotgun.

https://a.espncdn.com/nfl/s/westcoast/defining.html

Originally posted by Steve Young:

The offense cannot be taught or run based solely on a playbook. If a coach has no history in the West Coast and wants to teach it based on a playbook, he wouldn't get it. Timing and choreography, not plays, are what make the West Coast offense.
[...]
Two weeks ago I visited the Patriots and met with quarterback Tom Brady. When I asked him about his drops and his reads, he said everything is about finding space, zone routes, man-zone reads, short drops and timing. Brady's footwork tells him when to throw the ball. So, while offensive coordinator Charlie Weis has no West Coast history or ties to Walsh and the 49ers system in his coaching background, the Patriots essentially are running the West Coast offense.

Great stuff.

I couldn't agree more about the marriage of the feet choreographed. The Young to Rice slant was indefensible because of the thousand reps practiced to precision.

You just don't see that anymore. You probably can't see that anymore because of the CBA and coaches would rather use their time on installs. As a result, QB's have to hire their own mechanics coaches independent of the offenses they play in.

No doubt, what you bolded is a foundational core to the WCO. There are countless BW videos out there on this which stressed the QB's footwork, WR routes and their choreographed timing link to a successful play.

Too bad Niners816 isn't in here anymore. He'd have a field day talking about this.

At some point, we'll need to start talking about Kyle and how his own predecessors have morphed his offense as well. Hell, Kyle himself can morph pretty significantly over the course of one off season.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Aiyuk wins routes all over the field, including deep.

Too bad he's a 4th option though. Maybe Kyle should let his QB's know he should be the primary deep much more after 7 years.

Dude do you seriously believe that he's forcing his QBs to look low to high? You seriously think he's forcing his QBs to throw into the middle of the field in the 10-19 yard range among all the traffic all game?

totally disagree. There was shots to be had in that Raiders game that weren't short/intermediate plays that kyle said Brock missed.

If you truly believe that. Then kyle would have destroyed Allen and Mahomes careers and thank god we didn't draft them. Why in the world would he have wanted Stafford and Lance if that was the case? Why draft gray? Why sniff around at Watson before the off field stuff? He clearly wasn't a fit for his normal kubiak offense if you watched him last yr.

imo he's calling plays to his QB's strengths nothing more nothing less. He has his staple plays but he tailors the offense to his guys.

it's funny when you bring up Deebo and such as why it's all his short YAC plays…in that draft it was reported they also wanted DK but he got scooped up before we could draft him.

No, I believe Kyle is conservative. There's a whole podcast on it with Crocker from yesterday. I believe he coaches up his QB's to take the higher % shots and that's evident over time. I believe he likes to be in control of when the deeper shots are taken hence how JD has highlighted those being set up from earlier designs.

He's had 7 years to construct a team exactly how he wants it. Golden and 9ers4eva believe Aiyuk is our consistent deep threat (which is fine but I don't see the objective evidence for that). We've changed QB's. We still have no consistent deep threat, IMHO. What's the one constant? Kyle. He runs this b***h.

QB's change, spray chart stays the same. In fact, the only change we ever saw was with Trey when he became a FB dive specialist where the spray charts actually flipped.

So no, I'm going to focus on the 95% grounded in history and expect the exact same thing this year. A couple calculated set-up deep shots per game by Kyle using different personnel, mixed in with an off schedule shot once in a while by the QB/conditions but living in Kyle's designs under 20 yards the rest of the time.