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Big Wide Receivers

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Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Scottie15:
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I was just listening to the Colts GM on a radio show and he was saying how tough it is to evaluate wide receivers now because college teams are passing so much that a ton of guys have big stats. Add to that how many great receivers come from small colleges and can get overlooked sometimes. Rice, John Taylor, Owens, Antonio Brown, and Randy Moss are just a few that could have been overlooked without good scouting or dumb luck.

Great stuff here. Excellent post, especially as it pertains to small schools.

And to your point, there have been teams who have found lots of success without drafting WR high or utilizing the UDFA market. Doug Baldwin was undrafted, Victor Cruz was undrafted, Colston was drafted as TE in 7th round, and posted 6 seasons of over 1,000 yards receiving.

I think it all comes down to QB play, and scheme.

Agree, and I think the WR injuries - QB play has a role in it too. Too many times, I saw BeatHard hang his WR's out to dry because he missed an open window and threw late and allowed the DB to tee of on the WR.
Originally posted by Scottie15:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Scottie15:
Great stuff here. Excellent post, especially as it pertains to small schools.

And to your point, there have been teams who have found lots of success without drafting WR high or utilizing the UDFA market. Doug Baldwin was undrafted, Victor Cruz was undrafted, Colston was drafted as TE in 7th round, and posted 6 seasons of over 1,000 yards receiving.

I think it all comes down to QB play, and scheme.

Your last sentence is on point...WR is probably one of the most dependent positions in football.

Well that is where top WR talent becomes key.

Josh Gordon, widely considered one of the top WRs at the time, was able to ball out with horrible QB play and rotating door of QBs.

Same goes for OBJ, or most of the top producing receivers who can overcome horrible QB play.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Fascinating piece on sizes of the WR's.



This is it for me.

There is something to the game above the game (or the meta-game) in other words, guys like Bellicheat see trends in the NFL and run a strategy that counters those trends exploits weaknesses in what everybody else is doing. That may be what Kyle sees - that everybody is going small and he goes big.

As for big WR's, I've always viewed TE's as big WR's. Brent Jones was one heck of a move TE that could catch. His blocking was but man o man could he catch verticals and contested balls.

Our new rookie big Wr's and Garcon 2.0's always remind me that the WCO is based on throwing on third down and short instead of handing it off to the arby for a short yardage gain. It doesn't surprise me to see ShanaLynch going after running backs that can catch and wide recievers that can run.

Most definitely. I think Kyle is going to abuse slot CB's and LB's with the TE1 and TE2 positions. Kyle's tailoring this offense towards Garoppolo's strengths. Jimmy loves the intermediate pass. Deebo (slant), Hurd (in breaking routes and extensive slot experience) and Kaden (seam master).
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Most definitely. I think Kyle is going to abuse slot CB's and LB's with the TE1 and TE2 positions. Kyle's tailoring this offense towards Garoppolo's strengths. Jimmy loves the intermediate pass. Deebo (slant), Hurd (in breaking routes and extensive slot experience) and Kaden (seam master).

I think it's that and more. All of Kyle's WR's and arby's can run. I mean I *think* the average speed of all the pass catchers is around 4.4. Those are players that can play *fast break* offenses like the Warriors of the NFL. I remember '94 (sorry Hero for the reference ) and every one of those pass catchers could run after the catch. In other words, Kyle can play the verticl Air Coryell game with the kind of players he has if the defenses squat on the intermediate routes.

Kyle's offense is based on the WCO intermedite passing, but his offensive personnel has explosive Air Coryell written all over it.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Most definitely. I think Kyle is going to abuse slot CB's and LB's with the TE1 and TE2 positions. Kyle's tailoring this offense towards Garoppolo's strengths. Jimmy loves the intermediate pass. Deebo (slant), Hurd (in breaking routes and extensive slot experience) and Kaden (seam master).

I think it's that and more. All of Kyle's WR's and arby's can run. I mean I *think* the average speed of all the pass catchers is around 4.4. Those are players that can play *fast break* offenses like the Warriors of the NFL. I remember '94 (sorry Hero for the reference ) and every one of those pass catchers could run after the catch. In other words, Kyle can play the verticl Air Coryell game with the kind of players he has if the defenses squat on the intermediate routes.

Kyle's offense is based on the WCO intermedite passing, but his offensive personnel has explosive Air Coryell written all over it.

That's true...lots of guys who can become (or already are) YAC machines and a few who are elusive and/or great at breaking tackles.
Kyle does want separation. He prefers size but will go small if that's who creates it. There's still a very good chance that we end up with only 1 of 6 WR's on the roster being over 6'1
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NCommand:

Yes, V e r t I c a l Separation.

In the endzone, you can't separate horizontally, there isn't enough real estate, so you go V e r t I c a l!
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NCommand:

Yes, V e r t I c a l Separation.

In the endzone, you can't separate horizontally, there isn't enough real estate, so you go V e r t I c a l!

That and positioning using your body. I find that ex-basketballers do this very well!
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by OsBoogie:
Kyle does want separation. He prefers size but will go small if that's who creates it. There's still a very good chance that we end up with only 1 of 6 WR's on the roster being over 6'1
so mathews hurd smith and levine will all get cut?? lol. for two years we have been lectured that kyle likes small. breaking other guys ankles guys... well. very quietly. that has changed as is evidenced by who he has brought in
Originally posted by cciowa:
so mathews hurd smith and levine will all get cut?? lol. for two years we have been lectured that kyle likes small. breaking other guys ankles guys... well. very quietly. that has changed as is evidenced by who he has brought in

Smith and Levine are TE's... Kyle has never been accused of using small TE's

Matthews is quite possibly cut. Which leaves Hurd as the 1 in 6 WR over 6'1. That's not even talking about Kyle's talk about him possibly becoming an H or TE.

I don't know who has been lecturing you that Kyle likes small guys, he has clearly said he would love size with the athleticism but won't choose size OVER athleticism and the ability to get open.

If anything, he drafted Deebo, to start which would be against your argument, but again, he doesn't hate size, he just has more important qualities he looks for. You don't find Julio in every draft.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by OsBoogie:
Originally posted by cciowa:
so mathews hurd smith and levine will all get cut?? lol. for two years we have been lectured that kyle likes small. breaking other guys ankles guys... well. very quietly. that has changed as is evidenced by who he has brought in

Smith and Levine are TE's... Kyle has never been accused of using small TE's

Matthews is quite possibly cut. Which leaves Hurd as the 1 in 6 WR over 6'1. That's not even talking about Kyle's talk about him possibly becoming an H or TE.

I don't know who has been lecturing you that Kyle likes small guys, he has clearly said he would love size with the athleticism but won't choose size OVER athleticism and the ability to get open.

If anything, he drafted Deebo, to start which would be against your argument, but again, he doesn't hate size, he just has more important qualities he looks for. You don't find Julio in every draft.
ok. all i know. we have had little guys.. yes. posters have said and no i am not going back in time to find them,, its been said.. a little guy can be a good red zone target. size in the red zone is over rated etc etc..... that may or may not be true.. all i know is that something happened because all of a sudden we have reversed course 100 per cent and have brought in bigger guys. that shows me that kyle was not pleased, like so many of us, by our wide outs and second tight end from last year. i also disagree that mathews will be cut. i think he is more polished and is a better wide out than a couple of "our guys". if i am wrong. so what. i will admit it . just like i did with marlon moore and jon baldwin

Originally posted by Rascal:
Contested deep balls and end zone fades are "stupid" play calls? Says who? End zone fade is probably one of the most common play calls in the NFL. That is when a dominant WR really shows his worth when he towers above and outmuscle DBs. Most WRs can catch a ball when they are wide open. The difficulty of the red zone is because the action is so condensed is such a small area of the field which is why it is arguably more difficult to score when you are in the red zone.

Absolutely. If we had executed the end zone fade properly against the Seahawks (with Sherman defending) in one championship game we would have gone to another SB. We would have won another SB against the Ravens if we could have thrown the fade properly. Far from being stupid fades are an important part of any red zone offense. Without them you either have to be able to pound the ball into the end zone or have a good kicker.
Originally posted by cciowa:
ok. all i know. we have had little guys.. yes. posters have said and no i am not going back in time to find them,, its been said.. a little guy can be a good red zone target. size in the red zone is over rated etc etc..... that may or may not be true.. all i know is that something happened because all of a sudden we have reversed course 100 per cent and have brought in bigger guys. that shows me that kyle was not pleased, like so many of us, by our wide outs and second tight end from last year. i also disagree that mathews will be cut. i think he is more polished and is a better wide out than a couple of "our guys". if i am wrong. so what. i will admit it . just like i did with marlon moore and jon baldwin

I think you are overstating "reversing course 100 percent". Like I pointed out, Deebo was our highest drafted guy and is the likely starter opposite Pettis. 2 of the guys listed are TE's that will replace TE's that were all tall. If you don't think Matthews will be cut, you have to at least realize he's not a lock.

We needed upgrades, clearly and Kyle has stated that he would love size + athleticism, which is why I believe Hurd was his guy and I have high posts for him. I just don't think it's a full change of strategy by any means. He's always looking for mismatches regardless. First and foremost for the WR group is the ability to get open.

Then again, if you are arguing against people who simply think it was the shortness that he liked, then they are wrong. It's neither of the two.
It is, however, and has always been, about separation.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Absolutely. If we had executed the end zone fade properly against the Seahawks (with Sherman defending) in one championship game we would have gone to another SB. We would have won another SB against the Ravens if we could have thrown the fade properly. Far from being stupid fades are an important part of any red zone offense. Without them you either have to be able to pound the ball into the end zone or have a good kicker.

going to crabtree in the clutch. burning a time out right before ck was going to walk into the end zone and not running the ball on second and goal from the five with a fully rested gore and ,at the time.the best run blocking offensive line in the nfl. was the issue
Originally posted by cciowa:
going to crabtree in the clutch. burning a time out right before ck was going to walk into the end zone and not running the ball on second and goal from the five with a fully rested gore and ,at the time.the best run blocking offensive line in the nfl. was the issue

All true.
Originally posted by cciowa:
so mathews hurd smith and levine will all get cut?? lol. for two years we have been lectured that kyle likes small. breaking other guys ankles guys... well. very quietly. that has changed as is evidenced by who he has brought in

No he likes good route runners. Whether they be small or big.

Toilolo was brought in for competition more than anything. Don't know that he's even making the team.
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