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Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
There weren't many top tier O lineman in this draft and the few there were went in the first round or early second. If we would have picked one of them over Bosa or a receiver everyone would be complaining. I'm not sure any of the top linemen fit the type that Kyle likes. Anyway I've never seen a draft where everyone was happy and liked each pick. To really fill all our needs we would have had to have 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds. Even then someone might have beat us to the player we targeted.

Again this is why I was flabbergasted that we didn't try to trade for or make any moves during FA. I know there weren't a ton of OL in the draft and those on the open market but it always strikes me that some teams are aggressive enough to make their own market/opportunities. If NY was willing to trade OBJ, Houston was rumored to trade Clooney, Seattle traded Clark, all elite players who either moved or on the move because someone decided to pay enough.

The question becomes, how valuable is the OL to this coaching staff and if they believe we have enough, that's fine BUT it has to be proven. We have yet to see this proven on the field.

I trust Kyle. I think he is an offensive genius. I know he's forgotten more football than I'll ever know, yet the results are what they are; 125 QB hits. 2 consecutive seasons. Don't get me wrong, I am f**king stocked to see what he does with the weapons at his disposal. I just just don't want him to risk Jimmys health. Yes QBs get hit, it's football. However there is a pretty direct correlation between fewer QB hits and QB performance/efficiency and offensive performance/efficiency.

Pasodoc, regardless of the signal caller your dynasty needs 5 good reliable guys who can be consistent enough so the QB and his rbs and receivers can establish a rapport. I hoping we are getting close to that.


We need Richburg to be the guy we saw play in NY when he was considered one of the top centers in the league. We need Tomlinson to play like a first round prospect. We need Person to play out of his mind. We need Coleman to be much better than he was in a Cleveland. We need Mike to keep growing and Joe to stay healthy. Going to say a prayer to the football gods for my guys.

I think the bolded is what Shanahan is thinking and working towards. His mindset isn't that you need 5 all-pro linemen; you need serviceable linemen that have consistency and able to withstand the grind.

To doc's point as well, maybe he didn't foresee having a QB like JG this soon. But, what is more telling is when we went for CJ, what stood out to Shanahan was his toughness and ability to handle the beating.

It seems Shanahan is more about his scheming moreso than the players. Yes, it's definitely important to have skillful and talented players. But, in Shanahan's mind, you run the play correctly, and everyone handles their job correctly, his scheme will beat the defense.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by jcs:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Doc, regarding the OLine, I think quickness and speed over strength. Again how much *power* do you need as an OLineman to block for a screen pass or draw play? You need quick quickness and agility. Same thing with the zone run. You need timing and coordination more than power and strength.

So you are looking for OLinemen that are different from all the power and gap blocking teams out there. You still need good athletes, dont get me wrong, but it's the timing, coordination and all five olinemen thinking the same thing every single snap. I.e. the intangibles more than the tangibles that matter with shanahan.

I think you can find good athletic quick but maybe under-powered OLinemen in the later rounds, or maybe undrafted. The key is finding linemen with the ability to subdue thier individuality and meld their mind with the rest of the oLine guys and act as one mind vs a power man on man blocker where its mano a mano. Keep in mind even the backups have to mind meld too!
The Key is having a great Oline coach that can mold talent...we haven't had one of those since McKittrick

Those kinds of coaches are hard to find, no doubt about it. I remember McKittrick tutoring the QB's when Walsh got a new one. One of the reasons Walsh had him do that - is that the OLine is intengral to the passing game. Example, a slant to the slot guy, you need the OT to chop the DE to bring his hands down so that the QB can throw the slant to the Slot WR, and not have the pass batted down. Kyle and John Benton work together, I'm sure, to teach the OLinemen their techniques. Kyle is one of the best OC's in the business and I think an underrated OLine coach. I think we're ok on the OLine coaching because of Kyle. Once Kyle decides to step away from offensive coordinating, then that's where I'd love for him to get a good OLine coach from the collegiate ranks.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by flynhayn15:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Again this is why I was flabbergasted that we didn't try to trade for or make any moves during FA. I know there weren't a ton of OL in the draft and those on the open market but it always strikes me that some teams are aggressive enough to make their own market/opportunities. If NY was willing to trade OBJ, Houston was rumored to trade Clooney, Seattle traded Clark, all elite players who either moved or on the move because someone decided to pay enough.

The question becomes, how valuable is the OL to this coaching staff and if they believe we have enough, that's fine BUT it has to be proven. We have yet to see this proven on the field.

I trust Kyle. I think he is an offensive genius. I know he's forgotten more football than I'll ever know, yet the results are what they are; 125 QB hits. 2 consecutive seasons. Don't get me wrong, I am f**king stocked to see what he does with the weapons at his disposal. I just just don't want him to risk Jimmys health. Yes QBs get hit, it's football. However there is a pretty direct correlation between fewer QB hits and QB performance/efficiency and offensive performance/efficiency.

Pasodoc, regardless of the signal caller your dynasty needs 5 good reliable guys who can be consistent enough so the QB and his rbs and receivers can establish a rapport. I hoping we are getting close to that.

We need Richburg to be the guy we saw play in NY when he was considered one of the top centers in the league. We need Tomlinson to play like a first round prospect. We need Person to play out of his mind. We need Coleman to be much better than he was in a Cleveland. We need Mike to keep growing and Joe to stay healthy. Going to say a prayer to the football gods for my guys.

It's basic supply and demand. Colleges aren't developing many NFL ready OL anymore. If Marcus Martin and Chilo Rachael can get jobs in the NFL after we cut them, you know there is definitely a talent deficit. Besides the outlier draft of Stanley, Tunsil, and Conklin, when was the last time "can't miss" or at least projected stud OLinemen where available in the draft. In today's NFL you almost have to draft and develop. The problem is they may take 3 years to develop and then you get a one year starter from their rookie deal and then they get a huge deal in free agency like Norwell and Pugh.

The 49ers drafted the 1st OL taken in the draft last year, and signed the best C available, how can you question whether or not they value that group. The real question, do you give up on the Garnetts and the Tomlinsons of the world early and watch them start on other teams (like Brown, Iupati, person, Looney, and Kilgore) while you draft more guys that could develop later on? Or do you give them a chance to develop into what they were projected to be on draft day?

Great points. Staley, McGlinchy, and Richburg aren't chump change when they are healthy. So clearly ShanaLynch do value the OLine and are doing *something* to protect Jimmy and not be like Mike Martz and have his QB killed every time Kurt Warner dropped back.

I just think the OLine wasn't in as dire need as edge rusher and pass catcher. In other words, this is a one time deal where (Hopefully) this will be the last time under ShanaLynch we will be drafting #2 pick. They had to go for Edge Rusher because that was both a need and the strength of the draft. Also WR, same thing specially between rounds 2-4. I didn't see a Reuben Foster red flag player drafted, nor did I see a Joe Williams no passion player drafted. I think overall, this was a better draft than the 2017 draft. Hurd and [email protected] may be questionable in terms of scheme fit and draft value, but I think overall -- all the players drafted are gold helmet kinds of players that have a great chance at making the team.

I think folks shouldn't underestimate Kyle's ability to spot undrafted offensive talent.
Now that several of the ingredients are in place for Kyle's scheme , if JG can get the ball out quickly as a matter of routine, the line should be able to pass protect better on those occasions when JG needs a few more tenths of a second for a longer pass play to develop-- Versus the OL trying to hold off a pass rush on nearly every play.
[ Edited by WestCoastForever on May 7, 2019 at 10:19 PM ]
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by WestCoastForever:
Now that several of the ingredients are in place for Kyle's scheme , if JG can get the ball out quickly as a matter of routine, the line should be able to pass protect better on those occasions when JG needs a few more tenths of a second for a longer pass play to develop-- Versus the OL trying to hold off a pass rush on nearly every plate.

Agree, and I'll just add that we have a much deeper stable of speedy running backs that make the scheme hum. A QB with a run game is going to be much more healthy that an QB without one.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by WestCoastForever:
Now that several of the ingredients are in place for Kyle's scheme , if JG can get the ball out quickly as a matter of routine, the line should be able to pass protect better on those occasions when JG needs a few more tenths of a second for a longer pass play to develop-- Versus the OL trying to hold off a pass rush on nearly every play.

Agree, and I'll just add that we have a much deeper stable of speedy running backs that make the scheme hum. A QB with a run game is going to be much more healthy that an QB without one.

Especially a run game in which the defense doesn't know if it really is a run play!
How do you catch a unique rabbit?
I think a very unique way to build a dynasty is to win multiple championships in just a few years. I hope the 49ers go this route.
  • mayo49
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Two more years and I think we contend for the NFC title.
  • GORO
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Shanahan likes veteran Guards who have experience and smarts to make his running game successful. The problem that I have is Aaron Donald dominated the interior OL in two games played last year. In the draft the 49ers drafted Bosa for the Defense, the next two picks went to Kyle's Offense and the 4th they went special teams. They do not draft best available player but draft in a sequence. If the 1st pick was an offensive player than the next pick would more than likely go to Saleh side. Cody Ford, Eric McCoy could of been drafted by the 49ers, and would of started in their rookie years.

Drafting a wide receiver was a big need for this team so I understand Deebo but in round 3 they could of taken M Deiter, Nate Davis. Hopefully the Reynolds OL from Iowa is as good as the clips look and he takes a roster spot. In round 4 they could of got Hurd even after the trade down. Then traded both 6 round picks and the 5th they got to trade down in the 4th and moved up to secure Wishnowsky is a 49er.

Lets hope the OL is as good or better than last year. And hopefully the WR do get open and Jimmy stays healthy, But the Defense improvement is what is keeping this team from winning 9 plus games
[ Edited by GORO on May 8, 2019 at 4:06 AM ]

Kyle is building an offense that will put tremendous pressure up front for the first 5-10 yards on the defense, also with the help with the no touch after 5yds rule.

He's getting WR that can get open quickly to catch Jimmy's quick release. RB that can catch the ball. And most importantly ALL of his guys can RAC. The best defensive scheme like the one in Seattle, tend to give you that first 5yards and tries to consistently cover the rest of the field.

Kyle's is seemingly saying, my guys can get the ball in that 5 yrds and beat you with their RAC. Can your LB keep up and make the tackles consistently, or do you have to bring up saftey help. Oh by the way, our TE is George Kittle.

Tremendous pressure on LB and Safeties, the 2 positions that have dual responsibility on the field most of the time. Kyle will mind f**k them with his guys.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on May 8, 2019 at 6:29 AM ]
Originally posted by InfiniteEight:
I think the bolded is what Shanahan is thinking and working towards. His mindset isn't that you need 5 all-pro linemen; you need serviceable linemen that have consistency and able to withstand the grind.

To doc's point as well, maybe he didn't foresee having a QB like JG this soon. But, what is more telling is when we went for CJ, what stood out to Shanahan was his toughness and ability to handle the beating.

It seems Shanahan is more about his scheming moreso than the players. Yes, it's definitely important to have skillful and talented players. But, in Shanahan's mind, you run the play correctly, and everyone handles their job correctly, his scheme will beat the defense.


Interesting that someone (infinite eight) caught the line "Maybe kyle didn't foresee having a QB like JG this soon" . ..i think this still is a realistic possibility and based on the beating CJ took (and it was a royal beating), Kyle seemed to be delighted he could take a licking and keep on ticking. If he would have progressed it seemed he had the main attributes that kyle liked. Stood tall, took the hits and sometimes was still upright long enough to get a pass off. As it turned out he didn't seem to progress in his reads...which to be honest, were painfully slow. Still kyle kept him on ,and maybe it was because he was tough and could take a pounding.

Once Mullie came on tho, CJ was relegated to 3rd string. Mullie got the ball out easily and early, but he got the bejezus beat out of him too. So yes, I think it possible kyle may have really NOT planned on having a FR QB that early....or maybe he felt he could develop any qB who could take the hits, and do quick reads, and perhaps he didn't plan on a FR QB ever? Maybe kyle's Plan was to just keep using QBs who could do the above, and he somehow figured he could get away with no FR QB? I mean that is a bit "out there" but it sure seemed that way at times.

I still believe the FR QB kind of took kyle by surprise and maybe he never intended to protect whoever the QB was who was capable of taking a major beating every game...and truly was not a FR QB. Maybe he got caught in a situation where he couldn't pass on a FR QB who literally got dropped in his lap. Recall the contract was NOT chump change. Maybe kyle was thinking along those lines. If he could get a tough , crusty QB who could stand in, still get the ball out, maybe he could finesse having to ever get a FR QB...and save a bunch of money in the bargain.

Recall also, he had Cousins in WASH and Ryan in ATL....and neither has done anywhere near as well as when kyle was their OC. Is Ryan considered an all pro QB now? I don't think so. And cousins never really was a star once kyle left. So maybe those were the kind of QBs kyle was intending on using...not FR QB, but tough QBs with the quick flick. Whatever, the facts are we got a FR QB, and kyle really is obligated to protect the $137 mil investment. But so far, that hasn't happened. True, kyle got McG last yr, but that was just a replacement for Trent Brown. Richburg was another move to protect the Qb. But not spending draft capital on OGs or $$ on starter OGs...that is going to have to change.

We can hope one of the kids we picked up in UDFA will be a starter OG, and will help protect JimmyG. But we certainly didn't spend any real draft capital on OG altho we did get some quick receivers. Sadly they can't protect the passer however.
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on May 8, 2019 at 9:08 PM ]
One thing i didn't consider is that the OGs kyle wants, may not have been there. My thinking was traditional OGs, but maybe kyle's ZBS OGs just weren't there. To be fair, gotta include that in consideration for not taking one of the two or 3 OG starters in rds 1 -2.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Kyle is building an offense that will put tremendous pressure up front for the first 5-10 yards on the defense, also with the help with the no touch after 5yds rule.

He's getting WR that can get open quickly to catch Jimmy's quick release. RB that can catch the ball. And most importantly ALL of his guys can RAC. The best defensive scheme like the one in Seattle, tend to give you that first 5yards and tries to consistently cover the rest of the field.

Kyle's is seemingly saying, my guys can get the ball in that 5 yrds and beat you with their RAC. Can your LB keep up and make the tackles consistently, or do you have to bring up saftey help. Oh by the way, our TE is George Kittle.

Tremendous pressure on LB and Safeties, the 2 positions that have dual responsibility on the field most of the time. Kyle will mind f**k them with his guys.

I agree on passing side of the offense. Kyle is going to use everthing the rules give him and probably try to take a mile in additon to that. I like how the pass catchers not only are good recievers but also good runners after the catch.

On the run side of things, the thing with the zone run is, in my opinion, you need a RB with very good speed and very good agility to stop start and accelerate. I think one of the things that I'd like to see is the Arby's set up the DLines with their speed better. If the Arby's can get the DLine to commit to one side or the other, instead of staying balanced and keeping the gaps even, a runningback with speed and acceleration can dip into the line and then explode outside if the OLine knows and is one with the arby, can shade their blocking and draw the DLine inside in conjunctionw with the Arby and then have an angle advantage as teh arby explodes outside.
Originally posted by InfiniteEight:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
There weren't many top tier O lineman in this draft and the few there were went in the first round or early second. If we would have picked one of them over Bosa or a receiver everyone would be complaining. I'm not sure any of the top linemen fit the type that Kyle likes. Anyway I've never seen a draft where everyone was happy and liked each pick. To really fill all our needs we would have had to have 2 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds. Even then someone might have beat us to the player we targeted.

Again this is why I was flabbergasted that we didn't try to trade for or make any moves during FA. I know there weren't a ton of OL in the draft and those on the open market but it always strikes me that some teams are aggressive enough to make their own market/opportunities. If NY was willing to trade OBJ, Houston was rumored to trade Clooney, Seattle traded Clark, all elite players who either moved or on the move because someone decided to pay enough.

The question becomes, how valuable is the OL to this coaching staff and if they believe we have enough, that's fine BUT it has to be proven. We have yet to see this proven on the field.

I trust Kyle. I think he is an offensive genius. I know he's forgotten more football than I'll ever know, yet the results are what they are; 125 QB hits. 2 consecutive seasons. Don't get me wrong, I am f**king stocked to see what he does with the weapons at his disposal. I just just don't want him to risk Jimmys health. Yes QBs get hit, it's football. However there is a pretty direct correlation between fewer QB hits and QB performance/efficiency and offensive performance/efficiency.

Pasodoc, regardless of the signal caller your dynasty needs 5 good reliable guys who can be consistent enough so the QB and his rbs and receivers can establish a rapport. I hoping we are getting close to that.


We need Richburg to be the guy we saw play in NY when he was considered one of the top centers in the league. We need Tomlinson to play like a first round prospect. We need Person to play out of his mind. We need Coleman to be much better than he was in a Cleveland. We need Mike to keep growing and Joe to stay healthy. Going to say a prayer to the football gods for my guys.

I think the bolded is what Shanahan is thinking and working towards. His mindset isn't that you need 5 all-pro linemen; you need serviceable linemen that have consistency and able to withstand the grind.

To doc's point as well, maybe he didn't foresee having a QB like JG this soon. But, what is more telling is when we went for CJ, what stood out to Shanahan was his toughness and ability to handle the beating.

It seems Shanahan is more about his scheming moreso than the players. Yes, it's definitely important to have skillful and talented players. But, in Shanahan's mind, you run the play correctly, and everyone handles their job correctly, his scheme will beat the defense.

I don't doubt that this is his philosophy. I recall under Bill Walsh , he sent in Bono , third string quarterback to fill in for Montana , and he looked like a world beater.

When that WCO is firing on all cylinders, it is a beautiful thing, and decent players look great. I think that's what we're gonna have with Kyle's offense.
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