The win over the Seahawks will be the turning point going forward for the Niners

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by SD49er:
I've tried to read through all of this, plus the game thread. It seems to me that most of the dissenters over the win essentially claim that there is no value in the win, we said that wins last year would translate different, and that one player, Bosa, will change us from a crappy 3 win team to a contender.

The problem I have with these assertions is that it ignores the objective benefits of these wins. If we are really just a bad 2 win team blowing our chances then Bosa won't save the team anyway, because it will mean these last two drafts were bombs and we are completely screwed. There's no doubt that draft one for Lynch had a ton of mistakes (overdraftibg Thomas, the foster debacle, shanahan joe Williams infatuation, etc), but what we are seeing is a team that went from a one win team without jimmy to a 4-6 win team without jimmy because of young players developing. This win has objective value because it wasn't a fluke - it was a win by a mostly first and second year team learning to win agjnsy a very good Seattle team. This is a win because thomas, kittle, tt, Breida, DJ Jones, Mullins, mcglinchy, Pettis, Warner, Moore, Exum, Harris, and lee - all guys drafted by this regime, played great. These players development has more value that the opportunity cost of Bosa, which is just the difference between whatever player we draft and him.

We only won games last year because of jimmy, now we are winning games without jimmy - this is tangible objective improvement. This entire season has basically been an exhibition since Jimmy's injury. Now we have real hope that this team is actually improving. I hope we beat the bears and believe we can. This will only further show the positive changes we are witnessing. Go 49ers!

The arguement that I have been trying to make is that getting Bosa would be more beneficial to our future than this win and not that it would make us overnight contenders by that one move alone.

I don't understand this next point you are making. Please let me know if I get it wrong. Are you saying that we can only improve if we won that game? If we had lost the game by a close margin (which we easily could have if some of the penalties weren't called) would the players not improve? I have said repeatedly that experience is what these young players need and it is clear that they are improving. I just don't think there is any evidence to say you have to win or you won't get better. I remember that year we had with the Brett Favre touchdown in the back of the end zone. We lost so many heartbreaking games that I honestly believe may have helped us more than any win did. Not saying losing is better but I just don't think you can prove the outcome of the game to player progress.

I also don't agree that it was only Jimmy last year. Our defense played a lot better late last year and forced a bunch of turnovers in that win streak. Member Jimmy didn't put up all those points in the Jags game he had help. Then a lot of those rookie players regressed this year like Colbert, Witherspoon, T. Taylor among others. Even though Jimmy and McKinnon aren't back their our QB and RB play has been really good.

I believe we are improving but it's not because of the wins or losses it's because players are getting more comfortable with the scheme. Talent really matters in the NFL though and getting the first pick and coaching the senior bowl could have given us a much needed boost this offseason.

SD49er makes some excellent points in his post.

The perspective with the most significant merit is that 1 or 2 players don't make a team. This is weakness of the tank for Bosa argument.

Bosa only has potential to be an effective player in this league. He could also be a bust as was Forster, Thomas and Williams. He could also get broke like JG and Mackinnon. He could also be inconsistent and injury prone like Witherspoon. Potential does not equal the reality of becoming a great player.

However, the two wins against the Bronco's and Seattle demonstrate that now the team is developing as a team and individual's are rising to the occasion. This will carry over till next year.

This playing standard will be accentuated when JG comes back and with Mackinnon introduced into the run game. We will have much more depth there with Mackinnon and having Breida and Mosert all healed up.

This team only needs tinkering. Two adjustments to the Oline at centre and a guard. Another effective experienced WR now Garcon looks spend and we are getting close to what we need to start with to get more early wins next season.

The notion that we are doomed by not getting the 1st Draft and Bosa does not carry much weight relative to the bigger issue of team cohesion and being at full strength. The team is gelling with each other and collectively getting their heads around the play books.

I am optimistic about next year where as this time last year I was just full of wishful thinking.

Originally posted by Goatie:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by SD49er:

I've tried to read through all of this, plus the game thread. It seems to me that most of the dissenters over the win essentially claim that there is no value in the win, we said that wins last year would translate different, and that one player, Bosa, will change us from a crappy 3 win team to a contender.

The problem I have with these assertions is that it ignores the objective benefits of these wins. If we are really just a bad 2 win team blowing our chances then Bosa won't save the team anyway, because it will mean these last two drafts were bombs and we are completely screwed. There's no doubt that draft one for Lynch had a ton of mistakes (overdraftibg Thomas, the foster debacle, shanahan joe Williams infatuation, etc), but what we are seeing is a team that went from a one win team without jimmy to a 4-6 win team without jimmy because of young players developing. This win has objective value because it wasn't a fluke - it was a win by a mostly first and second year team learning to win agjnsy a very good Seattle team. This is a win because thomas, kittle, tt, Breida, DJ Jones, Mullins, mcglinchy, Pettis, Warner, Moore, Exum, Harris, and lee - all guys drafted by this regime, played great. These players development has more value that the opportunity cost of Bosa, which is just the difference between whatever player we draft and him.

We only won games last year because of jimmy, now we are winning games without jimmy - this is tangible objective improvement. This entire season has basically been an exhibition since Jimmy's injury. Now we have real hope that this team is actually improving. I hope we beat the bears and believe we can. This will only further show the positive changes we are witnessing. Go 49ers!

The arguement that I have been trying to make is that getting Bosa would be more beneficial to our future than this win and not that it would make us overnight contenders by that one move alone.

I don't understand this next point you are making. Please let me know if I get it wrong. Are you saying that we can only improve if we won that game? If we had lost the game by a close margin (which we easily could have if some of the penalties weren't called) would the players not improve? I have said repeatedly that experience is what these young players need and it is clear that they are improving. I just don't think there is any evidence to say you have to win or you won't get better. I remember that year we had with the Brett Favre touchdown in the back of the end zone. We lost so many heartbreaking games that I honestly believe may have helped us more than any win did. Not saying losing is better but I just don't think you can prove the outcome of the game to player progress.

I also don't agree that it was only Jimmy last year. Our defense played a lot better late last year and forced a bunch of turnovers in that win streak. Member Jimmy didn't put up all those points in the Jags game he had help. Then a lot of those rookie players regressed this year like Colbert, Witherspoon, T. Taylor among others. Even though Jimmy and McKinnon aren't back their our QB and RB play has been really good.

I believe we are improving but it's not because of the wins or losses it's because players are getting more comfortable with the scheme. Talent really matters in the NFL though and getting the first pick and coaching the senior bowl could have given us a much needed boost this offseason.

SD49er makes some excellent points in his post.

The perspective with the most significant merit is that 1 or 2 players don't make a team. This is weakness of the tank for Bosa argument.

Bosa only has potential to be an effective player in this league. He could also be a bust as was Forster, Thomas and Williams. He could also get broke like JG and Mackinnon. He could also be inconsistent and injury prone like Witherspoon. Potential does not equal the reality of becoming a great player.

However, the two wins against the Bronco's and Seattle demonstrate that now the team is developing as a team and individual's are rising to the occasion. This will carry over till next year.

This playing standard will be accentuated when JG comes back and with Mackinnon introduced into the run game. We will have much more depth there with Mackinnon and having Breida and Mosert all healed up.

This team only needs tinkering. Two adjustments to the Oline at centre and a guard. Another effective experienced WR now Garcon looks spend and we are getting close to what we need to start with to get more early wins next season.

The notion that we are doomed by not getting the 1st Draft and Bosa does not carry much weight relative to the bigger issue of team cohesion and being at full strength. The team is gelling with each other and collectively getting their heads around the play books.

I am optimistic about next year where as this time last year I was just full of wishful thinking.

1 or 2 players making the team isn't the point though. It's about what is better the win or getting Bosa. Like I said above there is no evidence to say that winning is the only way your team improves. Otherwise the jags would be great this season because they had a winning culture last year. We would have everyone on the team playing better this season because of our win streak last season but that's not the case.

Wins never carry over it's just false. If you can't see that with our recent history you simply haven't been paying attention. You can improve yet still lose.

Btw it's not Mackinnon lol.

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by Goatie:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by SD49er:

I've tried to read through all of this, plus the game thread. It seems to me that most of the dissenters over the win essentially claim that there is no value in the win, we said that wins last year would translate different, and that one player, Bosa, will change us from a crappy 3 win team to a contender.

The problem I have with these assertions is that it ignores the objective benefits of these wins. If we are really just a bad 2 win team blowing our chances then Bosa won't save the team anyway, because it will mean these last two drafts were bombs and we are completely screwed. There's no doubt that draft one for Lynch had a ton of mistakes (overdraftibg Thomas, the foster debacle, shanahan joe Williams infatuation, etc), but what we are seeing is a team that went from a one win team without jimmy to a 4-6 win team without jimmy because of young players developing. This win has objective value because it wasn't a fluke - it was a win by a mostly first and second year team learning to win agjnsy a very good Seattle team. This is a win because thomas, kittle, tt, Breida, DJ Jones, Mullins, mcglinchy, Pettis, Warner, Moore, Exum, Harris, and lee - all guys drafted by this regime, played great. These players development has more value that the opportunity cost of Bosa, which is just the difference between whatever player we draft and him.

We only won games last year because of jimmy, now we are winning games without jimmy - this is tangible objective improvement. This entire season has basically been an exhibition since Jimmy's injury. Now we have real hope that this team is actually improving. I hope we beat the bears and believe we can. This will only further show the positive changes we are witnessing. Go 49ers!

The arguement that I have been trying to make is that getting Bosa would be more beneficial to our future than this win and not that it would make us overnight contenders by that one move alone.

I don't understand this next point you are making. Please let me know if I get it wrong. Are you saying that we can only improve if we won that game? If we had lost the game by a close margin (which we easily could have if some of the penalties weren't called) would the players not improve? I have said repeatedly that experience is what these young players need and it is clear that they are improving. I just don't think there is any evidence to say you have to win or you won't get better. I remember that year we had with the Brett Favre touchdown in the back of the end zone. We lost so many heartbreaking games that I honestly believe may have helped us more than any win did. Not saying losing is better but I just don't think you can prove the outcome of the game to player progress.

I also don't agree that it was only Jimmy last year. Our defense played a lot better late last year and forced a bunch of turnovers in that win streak. Member Jimmy didn't put up all those points in the Jags game he had help. Then a lot of those rookie players regressed this year like Colbert, Witherspoon, T. Taylor among others. Even though Jimmy and McKinnon aren't back their our QB and RB play has been really good.

I believe we are improving but it's not because of the wins or losses it's because players are getting more comfortable with the scheme. Talent really matters in the NFL though and getting the first pick and coaching the senior bowl could have given us a much needed boost this offseason.

SD49er makes some excellent points in his post.

The perspective with the most significant merit is that 1 or 2 players don't make a team. This is weakness of the tank for Bosa argument.

Bosa only has potential to be an effective player in this league. He could also be a bust as was Forster, Thomas and Williams. He could also get broke like JG and Mackinnon. He could also be inconsistent and injury prone like Witherspoon. Potential does not equal the reality of becoming a great player.

However, the two wins against the Bronco's and Seattle demonstrate that now the team is developing as a team and individual's are rising to the occasion. This will carry over till next year.

This playing standard will be accentuated when JG comes back and with Mackinnon introduced into the run game. We will have much more depth there with Mackinnon and having Breida and Mosert all healed up.

This team only needs tinkering. Two adjustments to the Oline at centre and a guard. Another effective experienced WR now Garcon looks spend and we are getting close to what we need to start with to get more early wins next season.

The notion that we are doomed by not getting the 1st Draft and Bosa does not carry much weight relative to the bigger issue of team cohesion and being at full strength. The team is gelling with each other and collectively getting their heads around the play books.

I am optimistic about next year where as this time last year I was just full of wishful thinking.

1 or 2 players making the team isn't the point though. It's about what is better the win or getting Bosa. Like I said above there is no evidence to say that winning is the only way your team improves. Otherwise the jags would be great this season because they had a winning culture last year. We would have everyone on the team playing better this season because of our win streak last season but that's not the case.

Wins never carry over it's just false. If you can't see that with our recent history you simply haven't been paying attention. You can improve yet still lose.

Btw it's not Mackinnon lol.

Every one still bringing up BOSA dude has red Flags written all over him by being hurt anyway. I didn't even get into the Jimmy hype cause I knew the two injuries he had in New England. It doesn't matter how many talented players we have if they can't get on the feild. Happy with the win !!!!

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:
Turning point head on in to the Bears and Rams.
If we compete there then ok.

I get a feeling from the coaching attitude that we had already turned the corner when they said goodbye to Forster.

Ehh I don't know about this. That game in Tampa was UGLY. Worst loss of the season, even worse than the Rams game.

It was the underlying vibe sent out to the team by the coach that I think I was more so getting at. Not so much the result. The fire that came out of KS after the game and in subsequent games showed real mettle and resolve to never be screwed over again.

Emotionally it felt like that moment in the first Rocky film during the Creed fight when the background noise faded back to just a bell tolling. Call me a romantic idiot but I like the theater I am imagining is going on at Santa Clara HQ.

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
Great win by by Shaun Hill last week!

Championship!

Originally posted by SD49er:

I've tried to read through all of this, plus the game thread. It seems to me that most of the dissenters over the win essentially claim that there is no value in the win, we said that wins last year would translate different, and that one player, Bosa, will change us from a crappy 3 win team to a contender.

The problem I have with these assertions is that it ignores the objective benefits of these wins. If we are really just a bad 2 win team blowing our chances then Bosa won't save the team anyway, because it will mean these last two drafts were bombs and we are completely screwed. There's no doubt that draft one for Lynch had a ton of mistakes (overdraftibg Thomas, the foster debacle, shanahan joe Williams infatuation, etc), but what we are seeing is a team that went from a one win team without jimmy to a 4-6 win team without jimmy because of young players developing. This win has objective value because it wasn't a fluke - it was a win by a mostly first and second year team learning to win agjnsy a very good Seattle team. This is a win because thomas, kittle, tt, Breida, DJ Jones, Mullins, mcglinchy, Pettis, Warner, Moore, Exum, Harris, and lee - all guys drafted by this regime, played great. These players development has more value that the opportunity cost of Bosa, which is just the difference between whatever player we draft and him.

We only won games last year because of jimmy, now we are winning games without jimmy - this is tangible objective improvement. This entire season has basically been an exhibition since Jimmy's injury. Now we have real hope that this team is actually improving. I hope we beat the bears and believe we can. This will only further show the positive changes we are witnessing. Go 49ers!

Great post. Jimmy covered up a lot of the line problems and offenses problems in general. He also made the defense look a lot better than it was. Now we are winning without that so other players are making the team better, not just looking better, but really better. And a lot of them are rookies or second or third strings or even practice squad players. That is remarkable.

Originally posted by Waterbear:
Hurt emotions? The only emotions in this thread are from the people like you who feel like this one win will mean anything 5 years from now, a year from now, or even a week from now. Beating Seattle to go from three to four wins does not carry over to the next season it just doesn't no matter how many butterflies it gives you in your stomach. How many of our players drastically improved after the huge win vs the Jags last year? I could easily argue most of our young players got worse, not better after that game. How could that be if we had a signature/turning point win?

The bolded are complete straw man arguments. It really is embarrassing that you have to change what I'm arguing to make any of your points sound valid.

1. I have never said that. You're trying to change my argument and it's BS. I never said it is the only way to find talent I have always believed that getting a higher draft pick increased your chances of picking an elite player. Does it always work out? No. Do people find good players all over the draft? Yes. You do understand that when I say talent, it means your skills as a football player, not just physical tools. Would you say that Steph Curry isn't talented because he doesn't look like Lebron? Btw if you don't think Tom Brady is talented idk what to tell you.

You say you agree that coaching is a factor in determining wins yet ignore it with the Patriots example. You're right... It is more likely to be a "winning culture", which is what I'm guessing is the argument you are trying to make. There are many ways to build a roster but again that doesn't mean getting the first pick isn't the best thing to do in terms of accumulating elite talent.

2. How did you come to that conclusion? You literally are just making stuff up now.

3. That is exactly what I have said I am NOT expecting from this team. My point has always been that the fans have every right to root for losses and that the team itself should never try to purposely tank and also that winning one game would not be better in the long run than getting a prospect the caliber of Bosa. I have no idea what made you think that looking up an old quote of mine about moral victories would make any point at all lol.

4. I'm not criticizing the win. I am happy for the players, coaches, and fans who wanted that win. I have said that recently so you can look for that one as well.

I'm criticizing the fans like you who tell me that I have a loser mentality or that I'm inconsistent but yet you haven't come up with anything other than "there are draft busts" and "you don't need to draft high for good players" yourselves. We could actually break down statistically how much players like Von Miller and other top pass rushers have helped their team but there is nothing on your side that we could actually quantify. You really need to stop straw manning me because I have at least tried to argue what you are actually saying.

My first post was bombastic and hyperbolic, but was intended to be so because there is far too much negativity on this forum based on projection that the future will be as bad as the past (understandable given whats happened since the Yorks took over).

1, Your first post implied that this win was meaningless and that drafting Bosa was more important; from your recent responses I think you mean drafting talent is more important than winning a game when out of play-off contention and that the first overall pick gives you the best opportunity of that. I don't disagree with that logic.

My perspective is that this is a different kind of win, others have also pointed that out - this was a win that was about the team beating a very good opponent by the players themselves stepping up and not relying on the Jimmy G effect. I think this growth and development of the players is better than the opportunity cost in losing the number one overall pick because it is about those players getting better and more talented. What I am also trying to point out is that talented players are available throughout the draft and the consensus number one pick is as likely as not to be outshone by a player drafted later because there are no guarantees.

2. I'm not making things up, I am highlighting the flaw in your argument that is implicit in the notion that talent is only available if you are an early pick by pointing out that the teams with a winning culture are continually succeeding even when picking in the latter half of the draft and have been doing so for years. They are continually replenishing their talent and maintaining success with lower draft positions than we've had for the last 4 years - we were 8-8 in 2014. So if your argument that this win will hurt us because we can't draft Bosa was the only factor in play this would not be the case. My point is that there is no guarantee that Bosa will be the most talented player to come out of this draft.

3. My point is that you are taking a hypocritical stance and you are because you cited effort as one of the keys of a successful team culture, along with talent and coaching. When I make a post about the character and grit and determination the players showed to win (synonymous with effort) you cite that as hurtful to the long term success of the franchise because it came at the cost of draft position in a losing season, and that the celebration of that effort is embarrassing.

4. The criticism is in the implication and style of your posting.

Perhaps you should reflect that if many people are telling you this, that maybe they are right and you are wrong?

Lastly, and I won't post again in our debate; I have not straw-manned you at all, I have simply pointed out the implicit flaws and holes in your arguments when taking a step back and objectively looking at the logic. You came out swinging in your first post in an insulting fashion and I took you apart; don't start a fight and then complain you are the victim when you lose it. Perhaps next time you respond to a post you'll maybe consider tempering your style?

Now that aside, I suspect that if we were sitting in a bar having a beer and talking football we'd agree far more than we disagree.

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by Goatie:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Originally posted by SD49er:
I've tried to read through all of this, plus the game thread. It seems to me that most of the dissenters over the win essentially claim that there is no value in the win, we said that wins last year would translate different, and that one player, Bosa, will change us from a crappy 3 win team to a contender.

The problem I have with these assertions is that it ignores the objective benefits of these wins. If we are really just a bad 2 win team blowing our chances then Bosa won't save the team anyway, because it will mean these last two drafts were bombs and we are completely screwed. There's no doubt that draft one for Lynch had a ton of mistakes (overdraftibg Thomas, the foster debacle, shanahan joe Williams infatuation, etc), but what we are seeing is a team that went from a one win team without jimmy to a 4-6 win team without jimmy because of young players developing. This win has objective value because it wasn't a fluke - it was a win by a mostly first and second year team learning to win agjnsy a very good Seattle team. This is a win because thomas, kittle, tt, Breida, DJ Jones, Mullins, mcglinchy, Pettis, Warner, Moore, Exum, Harris, and lee - all guys drafted by this regime, played great. These players development has more value that the opportunity cost of Bosa, which is just the difference between whatever player we draft and him.

We only won games last year because of jimmy, now we are winning games without jimmy - this is tangible objective improvement. This entire season has basically been an exhibition since Jimmy's injury. Now we have real hope that this team is actually improving. I hope we beat the bears and believe we can. This will only further show the positive changes we are witnessing. Go 49ers!

The arguement that I have been trying to make is that getting Bosa would be more beneficial to our future than this win and not that it would make us overnight contenders by that one move alone.

I don't understand this next point you are making. Please let me know if I get it wrong. Are you saying that we can only improve if we won that game? If we had lost the game by a close margin (which we easily could have if some of the penalties weren't called) would the players not improve? I have said repeatedly that experience is what these young players need and it is clear that they are improving. I just don't think there is any evidence to say you have to win or you won't get better. I remember that year we had with the Brett Favre touchdown in the back of the end zone. We lost so many heartbreaking games that I honestly believe may have helped us more than any win did. Not saying losing is better but I just don't think you can prove the outcome of the game to player progress.

I also don't agree that it was only Jimmy last year. Our defense played a lot better late last year and forced a bunch of turnovers in that win streak. Member Jimmy didn't put up all those points in the Jags game he had help. Then a lot of those rookie players regressed this year like Colbert, Witherspoon, T. Taylor among others. Even though Jimmy and McKinnon aren't back their our QB and RB play has been really good.

I believe we are improving but it's not because of the wins or losses it's because players are getting more comfortable with the scheme. Talent really matters in the NFL though and getting the first pick and coaching the senior bowl could have given us a much needed boost this offseason.

SD49er makes some excellent points in his post.

The perspective with the most significant merit is that 1 or 2 players don't make a team. This is weakness of the tank for Bosa argument.

Bosa only has potential to be an effective player in this league. He could also be a bust as was Forster, Thomas and Williams. He could also get broke like JG and Mackinnon. He could also be inconsistent and injury prone like Witherspoon. Potential does not equal the reality of becoming a great player.

However, the two wins against the Bronco's and Seattle demonstrate that now the team is developing as a team and individual's are rising to the occasion. This will carry over till next year.

This playing standard will be accentuated when JG comes back and with Mackinnon introduced into the run game. We will have much more depth there with Mackinnon and having Breida and Mosert all healed up.

This team only needs tinkering. Two adjustments to the Oline at centre and a guard. Another effective experienced WR now Garcon looks spend and we are getting close to what we need to start with to get more early wins next season.

The notion that we are doomed by not getting the 1st Draft and Bosa does not carry much weight relative to the bigger issue of team cohesion and being at full strength. The team is gelling with each other and collectively getting their heads around the play books.

I am optimistic about next year where as this time last year I was just full of wishful thinking.

1 or 2 players making the team isn't the point though. It's about what is better the win or getting Bosa. Like I said above there is no evidence to say that winning is the only way your team improves. Otherwise the jags would be great this season because they had a winning culture last year. We would have everyone on the team playing better this season because of our win streak last season but that's not the case.

Wins never carry over it's just false. If you can't see that with our recent history you simply haven't been paying attention. You can improve yet still lose.

Btw it's not Mackinnon lol.

1. It is exactly the point. Throwing away winning for the rest of the years just to get one man is this point. Bosa has been injured and is playing only college football. That does not always, not even 75%, translate into making it in NFL. Bosa being the saviour of all mankind to the 49ers is a fantasy. Yeah he might turn out ok but then again he might not.

2. I can't spell or remember a guys name until I see him play for the 49ers. The fact that you point this out and try and have a condescending chuckle to yourself about it reflects on you, not me.

Originally posted by elguapo:

Great post. Jimmy covered up a lot of the line problems and offenses problems in general. He also made the defense look a lot better than it was. Now we are winning without that so other players are making the team better, not just looking better, but really better. And a lot of them are rookies or second or third strings or even practice squad players. That is remarkable.

True. But this was still established whether there was a W-L 'result.' A perfect example of that is the 5 games we lost by less than a FG last year. The team never quit all year and got better and better. The W-L result had no effect on this year.

And now this year, 5 games by less than a score. The team never quit all year and got better and better. It will have no effect on next year.

Had we walked away with an O.T. loss, it would just be #6 in games we lost by one score, hence the term, "meaningless win."

Once McKinnon and Garoppolo went down, this season was all about getting the old/washed up out (M.Smith, Mitchell, Ward) and getting the youth in and developing the depth...and maybe find a new starter here and there. It's too bad they waited so long to do just that BUT in the end, mission accomplished.

W-L had no barring on anything esp. team development and morale --- except draft position.

Originally posted by LVJay:

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
Great win by by Shaun Hill last week!

Championship!

LOL

we ended the year strong. mike sing will lead us to the promised land next year

Wish the turning point game happened earlier in the season

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by defenderDX:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by defenderDX:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by defenderDX:

greatest post in the history of the internet

disagree.. the flame out. going out in a blaze of glory that was from qbguru where stoney is a dumb ass. luv is a whore and sus is cool is the greatest post in the history of the internet

where has luv been?

she used to wander around the parking lot. i can usually go to the what are you eating thread and post. that is like ringing the dinner bell for her. i mean that in a most good way . where is 49allthetime. he and i used to really go at things and i do hope he is ok

yeah he used to be around allthetime

Like me, he probably got extremely disheartened when jimmy went down. I still have been around the zone every day because it makes great reading on the throne, but I lost all interest in talking about the team cause I went into a, 'what's the point?' mode. Felt like there was no reason to talk about a team that was waiting around for the next season and was gonna be different.

However. I do believe buchy has a point with his OP. Everyone thought the winning streak would carry over because of a few things we saw:
Jimmy G is a really, really good QB who elevates everyone around him.
Reuben Foster was a game-changing player who balled out the last 6 games.
With teams picking on D. Johnson Akhello looked like a real up and coming shut down zone corner perfect for this scheme
Adrian Colbert flashed incredible potential.

What happened at the beginning of the season was Jimmy G got hurt when we were 1-2.
Reuben Foster missed the first 2 games and wasn't the same player when he came back.
AW wasn't nearly where everyone thought he was going to be and with teams only throwing 2 passes every 3 games at Sherm he had a ton forced upon him that he wasn't ready for.
Colbert was showing he was still a young player but still has huge upside right and potential.

The excitement over last year was that Jimmy and RF really hid a lot of flaws. I mean hid in that you really couldn't see them on the field in any way. Jimmy was so good and so efficient with Kyle our defense wasn't being exposed as much. With a defense not being exposed some players flashed only positives and weren't exposed enough to see the holes in their game yet.

We won with a very very good player covering our warts.

These last 2 wins haven't had the luxury of an elite player covering our warts. They've been won as a team, by players growing and playing well. Not by the herculean efforts of 1 or two players. But we've won warts and all.

That's a positive sign. That's a sign that the team is improving, not just adding better players, but the players on the team are playing better.

While it's true that this season won't mean jack next year. The development of players and the things they've learned, the experiences they've had, the confidence they build - it will all matter.

Johnnydel, it is a rare day indeed when i don't agree with you and or learn from you. But here, perhaps an exception. The team is playing better, and the OL looks better...NOW...when Mullie took over at QB. With CJ QBing, we didn't look all that much improved to be honest. Holding onto the ball forever....just didn't make for a good looking O. Mullins has been primarily the reason we have looked so much better the last couple games. Yes, the team was better, but when CJ was out there, no , not that much. Even with Mullie who can get rid of the ball right quick, the OL still looks suspect and count the hits and they are no fewer than before. Something like 8-10 hits per game and they arent' fairy touches either . They usually are the rock your teeth type, where the QB better be wearing a mouthpiece..

Yes Kittle has really performed, well past where anyone really thot he would be. Laken got better, Person did way better than those before him, but neither is great at pass pro. ZBS yes, all OL looked good there. At center...ok, we got him, but is there anyway we can get rid of him and try again? Not the kind of result you want when buying a stud center. Our OL IS better. But good? No .

On D we probably are better off with no Reuben , altho he is a tremendous football talent. But the off field stuff...just a heartache for coaches, GM and team as well. But with the shoulder, we probably were looking at a half timer at best. Warner is something else. What a jewel. DBs...maybe not quite as bad as last yr, (ok that is Sherm), but aside from him, ouch. It did show us we need two starting LBs, not one.

Which leaves the DL. Several games back after lots of dissension and rumbling, JL "wanted to see how Solomon played on the inside"....Duh...

So next game DC has him on inside then shifts to having him on outside. What , Saleh didn't get the message? Jeez. That and inability or refusal to change tactics at mid game go further to prove we have the wrong guy at DC. We got poor talent on D, maybe 3 starters if you include uncle sherm, but abject badness scattered thruout for talent. In a situation like this, you need the BEST talent you can find for DC...not the least experience or least prepared for DC. So on D, we are no better. Oh, and strange when Saleh finally did get the message to play ST inside, he plays a lot better. Cripes, and who can still say keeping a greeen DC is oK??

Which is a way of saying, yes we do look better, somewhat, with Mullie, not JG covering our warts. We still got warts, and plenty of them. Just have a different QB (remarkably) covering them up. The OL is better but at anything but ZBS, they are awful and Center is really weak. So no, i don't see that much better a team out there this yr. 2019 ? With JG, the Jet, Pettis , TT, all healthy, yes i see improvement. But this yr? No, not really.

Only thing notable was finally somehow getting DC to play Solomon inside. And still he dragged his feet. 2018? For one entire yr? Not much improvement, altho we did stumble onto another potential starting QB. That was our big improvement.

Originally posted by Buchy:

Originally posted by Waterbear:

Hurt emotions? The only emotions in this thread are from the people like you who feel like this one win will mean anything 5 years from now, a year from now, or even a week from now. Beating Seattle to go from three to four wins does not carry over to the next season it just doesn't no matter how many butterflies it gives you in your stomach. How many of our players drastically improved after the huge win vs the Jags last year? I could easily argue most of our young players got worse, not better after that game. How could that be if we had a signature/turning point win?

The bolded are complete straw man arguments. It really is embarrassing that you have to change what I'm arguing to make any of your points sound valid.

1. I have never said that. You're trying to change my argument and it's BS. I never said it is the only way to find talent I have always believed that getting a higher draft pick increased your chances of picking an elite player. Does it always work out? No. Do people find good players all over the draft? Yes. You do understand that when I say talent, it means your skills as a football player, not just physical tools. Would you say that Steph Curry isn't talented because he doesn't look like Lebron? Btw if you don't think Tom Brady is talented idk what to tell you.

You say you agree that coaching is a factor in determining wins yet ignore it with the Patriots example. You're right... It is more likely to be a "winning culture", which is what I'm guessing is the argument you are trying to make. There are many ways to build a roster but again that doesn't mean getting the first pick isn't the best thing to do in terms of accumulating elite talent.

2. How did you come to that conclusion? You literally are just making stuff up now.

3. That is exactly what I have said I am NOT expecting from this team. My point has always been that the fans have every right to root for losses and that the team itself should never try to purposely tank and also that winning one game would not be better in the long run than getting a prospect the caliber of Bosa. I have no idea what made you think that looking up an old quote of mine about moral victories would make any point at all lol.

4. I'm not criticizing the win. I am happy for the players, coaches, and fans who wanted that win. I have said that recently so you can look for that one as well.

I'm criticizing the fans like you who tell me that I have a loser mentality or that I'm inconsistent but yet you haven't come up with anything other than "there are draft busts" and "you don't need to draft high for good players" yourselves. We could actually break down statistically how much players like Von Miller and other top pass rushers have helped their team but there is nothing on your side that we could actually quantify. You really need to stop straw manning me because I have at least tried to argue what you are actually saying.

My first post was bombastic and hyperbolic, but was intended to be so because there is far too much negativity on this forum based on projection that the future will be as bad as the past (understandable given whats happened since the Yorks took over).

1, Your first post implied that this win was meaningless and that drafting Bosa was more important; from your recent responses I think you mean drafting talent is more important than winning a game when out of play-off contention and that the first overall pick gives you the best opportunity of that. I don't disagree with that logic.

My perspective is that this is a different kind of win, others have also pointed that out - this was a win that was about the team beating a very good opponent by the players themselves stepping up and not relying on the Jimmy G effect. I think this growth and development of the players is better than the opportunity cost in losing the number one overall pick because it is about those players getting better and more talented. What I am also trying to point out is that talented players are available throughout the draft and the consensus number one pick is as likely as not to be outshone by a player drafted later because there are no guarantees.

2. I'm not making things up, I am highlighting the flaw in your argument that is implicit in the notion that talent is only available if you are an early pick by pointing out that the teams with a winning culture are continually succeeding even when picking in the latter half of the draft and have been doing so for years. They are continually replenishing their talent and maintaining success with lower draft positions than we've had for the last 4 years - we were 8-8 in 2014. So if your argument that this win will hurt us because we can't draft Bosa was the only factor in play this would not be the case. My point is that there is no guarantee that Bosa will be the most talented player to come out of this draft.

3. My point is that you are taking a hypocritical stance and you are because you cited effort as one of the keys of a successful team culture, along with talent and coaching. When I make a post about the character and grit and determination the players showed to win (synonymous with effort) you cite that as hurtful to the long term success of the franchise because it came at the cost of draft position in a losing season, and that the celebration of that effort is embarrassing.

4. The criticism is in the implication and style of your posting.

Perhaps you should reflect that if many people are telling you this, that maybe they are right and you are wrong?

Lastly, and I won't post again in our debate; I have not straw-manned you at all, I have simply pointed out the implicit flaws and holes in your arguments when taking a step back and objectively looking at the logic. You came out swinging in your first post in an insulting fashion and I took you apart; don't start a fight and then complain you are the victim when you lose it. Perhaps next time you respond to a post you'll maybe consider tempering your style?

Now that aside, I suspect that if we were sitting in a bar having a beer and talking football we'd agree far more than we disagree.

I mean.. I was trying to point that out by saying you wrote a lot but said very little. I understood that but I think many on here actually do believe the game was more meaningful then drafting talent so that's why I have been trying to prove that it is not.

1. Again that is all I'm trying to say. I have given the Jags game from last year as an example to show that it was supposed to be that same kind of win that was more meaningful but it didn't make Thomas, Colbert, Witherspoon, Trent Taylor, and others better this year.

Like I stated before that is not true and my stance does not imply that. It's simply about probabilities. If you're playing poker would you want more chips or less? Sure you can lose all your chips in one round or in three rounds but that doesn't mean having less chips is better than having more. Bosa looks like the clear-cut top pick but it would give Lynch the ability to make the right pick. Whether or not that pick is Bosa is yet to be seen I just believe it is.

2. "Pittsburgh is successful and many others not by always drafting high but by drafting smart and maximizing what they get from those players. In the last 4 years we've continually picked before them, by your logic that should mean we're much more talented." I never said that the only way to improve is to get higher draft picks. Obviously, that is not true look at Brieda and Kittle this year. That is a straw man argument because I never said anything close to this and you didn't even attempt to get my stance correct.

3. "I make a post about the character and grit and determination the players showed to win (synonymous with effort) you cite that as hurtful to the long-term success of the franchise because it came at the cost of draft position in a losing season". I never said that effort was hurtful to the future of the franchise I said the win was. You can still have tremendous effort and lose. This is again a straw man argument.

4. "The criticism is in the implication and style of your posting" So you quote me on some random post that has nothing to do with what we are actually talking about but you can't prove I was criticizing anything about the team so you say implied it and it was in the style of posting? lol. Saying I criticized the team is just false and the reason you did so is again to straw man me because you know I never said that.

"Perhaps you should reflect that if many people are telling you this, that maybe they are right and you are wrong?" That's an ad populum. Who cares what the majority of people believe? That doesn't have any bearing on who is right.

Lastly, and I won't post again in our debate; I have not straw-manned you at all, I have simply pointed out the implicit flaws and holes in your arguments when taking a step back and objectively looking at the logic. You came out swinging in your first post in an insulting fashion and I took you apart; don't start a fight and then complain you are the victim when you lose it. Perhaps next time you respond to a post you'll maybe consider tempering your style?

Listen. I said that your opinion was baloney not you. Then you went on to insult me in every post you had and straw man me to death. Do we need to count the insults? Because i'm 100% confident you win by a landslide. Then you continually said that I implied things that I never said and basing your "logical" arguments around those opinions that I don't even share.

^^This last paragraph sums up everything you must be thinking internally because it was you who did all those things not me. You must think you're a victim because some people don't share the same opinions as you and you feel attacked. Maybe you think that you should temper your style which you admit was bombastic and hyperbolic because when people actually call you out on it you can't actually back anything up with logic?

I'll leave you with Danth's Law: "if someone goes and announces that they've won an internet forum discussion, they probably very much haven't."

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Wish the turning point game happened earlier in the season

This x 100

It's amazing to me to see this weeks win be spun into a "turnaround."

Until the team wins at least half of its games when there's still something to play for and beats teams it should beat (bottom feeders in the league), this isn't a "turnaround" for me. When the team is still realistically considered being in the playoff hunt in November or December, that's when it will be a turnaround - at least for me.

Have to agree. Its easy to reflect in the moment but only after you have climbed back to a Lombardi can you really tell which twist and turn really mattered the most.

Originally posted by KeepRabbitsOut:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Wish the turning point game happened earlier in the season

This x 100

It's amazing to me to see this weeks win be spun into a "turnaround."

Until the team wins at least half of its games when there's still something to play for and beats teams it should beat (bottom feeders in the league), this isn't a "turnaround" for me. When the team is still realistically considered being in the playoff hunt in November or December, that's when it will be a turnaround - at least for me.

Have to agree. Its easy to reflect in the moment but only after you have climbed back to a Lombardi can you really tell which twist and turn really mattered the most.

A turnaround is Justin Smith hustling down field to cause a fumble and then consequently ripping off a bunch of wins, going on a run and everyone recognizing that play as the "turning point."