There are 197 users in the forums

2019 Defensive Progress & Robert Saleh Hot-seat Tracker

Shop Find 49ers gear online ⇨
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I could understand missing more complex things but our guys are blowing the basics. At minimum, judging by Sherman's vocal support of Saleh and frustration over those plays, I feel like the basic busts are on the players.

Beyond that, at the least I'm sure it's a combination of 1) miscommunication with Warner, and 2) expecting the players would be able to step up and grow with the scheme and either we're trying to do too much (coach issue) or the players aren't picking it up as fast as we like (player issue/limitation).

At the end of the day there's plenty of blame to go around, I just happen to think its a much more even split between the players, Haftley, and Saleh.

I fully agree with this. There seems to be fundamental issues from top to bottom and shared blame for a variety of coaches/players. There's no clear blame here. Only responsibility, which ultimately, goes to the DC and that same concept would apply to Kyle if the offense wasn't producing.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 18, 2018 at 8:56 AM ]
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Who cares if they suck? I consider "resources" for a defense to be something that provides value. Sherman provides value, Warner is learning. the others are meh at best.

Oh, so now, spending resources only counts if they are all pros. Haha...got it.

Spending resources is meaningless if they do not add value.

Or MAKE them valuable by developing them like Kyle and his offensive staff have done with McGlinchey, Pettis, Taylor, Kittle, Breida, James, Person, Tomlinson, Goodwin, Bourne, etc.

I think Foster and Warner are coming along well and Buck is blossoming.
James has 7 yards from scrimmage this year. Bourne has 120. Joe Williams has zero.

The defense is full of young or crappy players. Some of the young ones will develop.

Every offensive player is contributing in the roles asked of them. They don't appear to be confused pre snap, running the wrong routes, ill-prepared, etc. The only player who struggled with this was Pettis but that's because he's a rookie learning all 3 WR positions in a very complex scheme.

The defense, outside of Warner, has no excuses.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I could understand missing more complex things but our guys are blowing the basics. At minimum, judging by Sherman's vocal support of Saleh and frustration over those plays, I feel like the basic busts are on the players.

Beyond that, at the least I'm sure it's a combination of 1) miscommunication with Warner, and 2) expecting the players would be able to step up and grow with the scheme and either we're trying to do too much (coach issue) or the players aren't picking it up as fast as we like (player issue/limitation).

At the end of the day there's plenty of blame to go around, I just happen to think its a much more even split between the players, Haftley, and Saleh.

I fully agree with this. There seems to be fundamental issues from top to bottom and shared blame for a variety of coaches/players. There's no clear blame here. Only responsibility, which ultimately, goes to the DC and that same concept would apply to Kyle if the offense wasn't producing.

Exactly, honestly, people could blame Kyle since he's at the top and over Saleh. Kyle knows football and it's not like he is clueless about coverage concepts and what the defense should be coached. He doesn't make defensive play calls, but I'm dang sure he knows every in and out of how they should be executed.

All these guys are in meetings and on the practice field each week, it's hard to believe they don't have a better idea than us of what the root of the issues are. I guess all we can do is hope they address the biggest flaws asap and work out from there.

It took us a few weeks to see noticeable improvement in tackling. I sincerely hope we are through the period of struggling with basic busts by the time we face the Rams.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Who cares if they suck? I consider "resources" for a defense to be something that provides value. Sherman provides value, Warner is learning. the others are meh at best.

Oh, so now, spending resources only counts if they are all pros. Haha...got it.

Spending resources is meaningless if they do not add value.

Or MAKE them valuable by developing them like Kyle and his offensive staff have done with McGlinchey, Pettis, Taylor, Kittle, Breida, James, Person, Tomlinson, Goodwin, Bourne, etc.

I think Foster and Warner are coming along well and Buck is blossoming.
James has 7 yards from scrimmage this year. Bourne has 120. Joe Williams has zero.

The defense is full of young or crappy players. Some of the young ones will develop.

Every offensive player is contributing in the roles asked of them. They don't appear to be confused pre snap, running the wrong routes, ill-prepared, etc. The only player who struggled with this was Pettis but that's because he's a rookie learning all 3 WR positions in a very complex scheme.

The defense, outside of Warner, has no excuses.

What is James producing in the offense?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Who cares if they suck? I consider "resources" for a defense to be something that provides value. Sherman provides value, Warner is learning. the others are meh at best.

Oh, so now, spending resources only counts if they are all pros. Haha...got it.

Spending resources is meaningless if they do not add value.

Or MAKE them valuable by developing them like Kyle and his offensive staff have done with McGlinchey, Pettis, Taylor, Kittle, Breida, James, Person, Tomlinson, Goodwin, Bourne, etc.

I think Foster and Warner are coming along well and Buck is blossoming.
James has 7 yards from scrimmage this year. Bourne has 120. Joe Williams has zero.

The defense is full of young or crappy players. Some of the young ones will develop.

Every offensive player is contributing in the roles asked of them. They don't appear to be confused pre snap, running the wrong routes, ill-prepared, etc. The only player who struggled with this was Pettis but that's because he's a rookie learning all 3 WR positions in a very complex scheme.

The defense, outside of Warner, has no excuses.

To add, Saleh worked as a linebackers coach previously, so secondary isn't exactly a historical specialty of his. Perhaps that is an area of weakness of his? Hard to say..
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Exactly, honestly, people could blame Kyle since he's at the top and over Saleh. Kyle knows football and it's not like he is clueless about coverage concepts and what the defense should be coached. He doesn't make defensive play calls, but I'm dang sure he knows every in and out of how they should be executed.

All these guys are in meetings and on the practice field each week, it's hard to believe they don't have a better idea than us of what the root of the issues are. I guess all we can do is hope they address the biggest flaws asap and work out from there.

It took us a few weeks to see noticeable improvement in tackling. I sincerely hope we are through the period of struggling with basic busts by the time we face the Rams.

Agree here as well re: Kyle's responsibilit. No doubt. We'll have to see if Saleh can fix all of this over the course of the year and Kyle will need to evaluate throughout and reasses in the off season.

Fingers crossed!
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 18, 2018 at 9:25 AM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
To add, Saleh worked as a linebackers coach previously, so secondary isn't exactly a historical specialty of his. Perhaps that is an area of weakness of his? Hard to say..

Good point for sure.
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
What is James producing in the offense?

He's now a return specialist and with the injuries to Taylor, has been used on screens from the slot. Solid role for a 7th rounder that should expand with Taylor's busted back...unless Pettis can make it back to full health.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I could understand missing more complex things but our guys are blowing the basics. At minimum, judging by Sherman's vocal support of Saleh and frustration over those plays, I feel like the basic busts are on the players.

Beyond that, at the least I'm sure it's a combination of 1) miscommunication with Warner, and 2) expecting the players would be able to step up and grow with the scheme and either we're trying to do too much (coach issue) or the players aren't picking it up as fast as we like (player issue/limitation).

At the end of the day there's plenty of blame to go around, I just happen to think its a much more even split between the players, Haftley, and Saleh.

I fully agree with this. There seems to be fundamental issues from top to bottom and shared blame for a variety of coaches/players. There's no clear blame here. Only responsibility, which ultimately, goes to the DC and that same concept would apply to Kyle if the offense wasn't producing.

Exactly, honestly, people could blame Kyle since he's at the top and over Saleh. Kyle knows football and it's not like he is clueless about coverage concepts and what the defense should be coached. He doesn't make defensive play calls, but I'm dang sure he knows every in and out of how they should be executed.

All these guys are in meetings and on the practice field each week, it's hard to believe they don't have a better idea than us of what the root of the issues are. I guess all we can do is hope they address the biggest flaws asap and work out from there.

It took us a few weeks to see noticeable improvement in tackling. I sincerely hope we are through the period of struggling with basic busts by the time we face the Rams.

I think we assume that but again, not totally sure what's happening in the meeting room, then practice then on the field. It could be that we're calling something slightly different as Saleh has been known to adjust to opponents and it could be something slightly different than what they're doing at practice.

The results are clear though, there's something amiss and it's not getting fixed week to week, fundamentally. You could say the same thing about tackling - it took weeks for that to get marginally better and it's still somewhat of an issue.
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 29,742
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

You can scheme offense. But defense needs talent.

One of the things Kyle said when he first arrived here was this ^^^.

That fact is one of the reasons John and Kyle insisted on 6 year contracts; they knew that acquiring the necessary defensive talent was going to take longer than just a couple of years.

  • Stud
  • Member
  • Posts: 5,264
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.


Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.

The 49ers are dead last in defensive take aways. DEAD LAST. Not good.
[ Edited by Stud on Oct 18, 2018 at 11:53 AM ]
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 29,742
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
The only thing different between this year and last year is Warner wearing the dot instead of Foster/Coyle. Beyond that, the breakdowns are inexplicable. I don't think Saleh forgot how to coach anymore than the players in year two forgot how to play football. So what's the deal?

In my opinion, if these errors continue, we need to add an assistant to help with this or something because whatever is being relayed to players clearly isn't sticking. I'm not as low as some are on Saleh but let's be honest, he's not going anywhere. That said, what else can really be done to fix the issue?
It's the chicken/egg deal.

Good (talented) players don't have to commit penalties in order to do their job. Hence, they make the coaching staff look good.

Bad (less talented) players sense they are getting beat so the commit penalties. Hence, they make the coaching staff look bad.

Good coaches have developed methods to convey proper technique to players so they play well. Hence, they make the players look good.

Bad coaches do not have methods to convey proper technique to players so they play poorly. Hence, they make the players look bad.

...and then sometimes players just do not have the mental ability to absorb what is being taught...

duh, duh, duh, and duh

We won't know the real answers until we have another year or two of new players coming in. When that happens, we will see there is a little of all of the above going on. For now, I, like you, am willing to give Saleh the benefit of the doubt in that there are clearly players on the defense that will not be here when the team is in the playoffs.
  • dj43
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 29,742
Originally posted by Ensatsu:
why isn't Lynch coaching the DBs like Baalke used to do?
Originally posted by Stud:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.


Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.

The 49ers are dead last in defensive take aways. DEAD LAST. Not good.

This is true, especially when the team also leads the NFL in giveaways. The turnover diff is brutal.
Originally posted by TheWooLick:
Originally posted by Stud:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.


Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.

The 49ers are dead last in defensive take aways. DEAD LAST. Not good.

This is true, especially when the team also leads the NFL in giveaways. The turnover diff is brutal.

This is certainly due to a combination of things as well. Players out of position aren't going to cause turnovers, but players that suck and aren't playmakers don't help either. No pass rush another contributing factor.
Share 49erswebzone