2019 Defensive Progress & Robert Saleh Hot-seat Tracker

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
The only thing different between this year and last year is Warner wearing the dot instead of Foster/Coyle. Beyond that, the breakdowns are inexplicable. I don't think Saleh forgot how to coach anymore than the players in year two forgot how to play football. So what's the deal?

In my opinion, if these errors continue, we need to add an assistant to help with this or something because whatever is being relayed to players clearly isn't sticking. I'm not as low as some are on Saleh but let's be honest, he's not going anywhere. That said, what else can really be done to fix the issue?

It's the chicken/egg deal.

Good (talented) players don't have to commit penalties in order to do their job. Hence, they make the coaching staff look good.

Bad (less talented) players sense they are getting beat so the commit penalties. Hence, they make the coaching staff look bad.

Good coaches have developed methods to convey proper technique to players so they play well. Hence, they make the players look good.

Bad coaches do not have methods to convey proper technique to players so they play poorly. Hence, they make the players look bad.

...and then sometimes players just do not have the mental ability to absorb what is being taught...

duh, duh, duh, and duh

We won't know the real answers until we have another year or two of new players coming in. When that happens, we will see there is a little of all of the above going on. For now, I, like you, am willing to give Saleh the benefit of the doubt in that there are clearly players on the defense that will not be here when the team is in the playoffs.

Originally posted by Ensatsu:
why isn't Lynch coaching the DBs like Baalke used to do?

Originally posted by Stud:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.

Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.

The 49ers are dead last in defensive take aways. DEAD LAST. Not good.

This is true, especially when the team also leads the NFL in giveaways. The turnover diff is brutal.

Originally posted by TheWooLick:

Originally posted by Stud:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

(No pun intended by the way...)

Look, I am not thrilled with the big mistakes and I have been very critical of him at times this year myself, but at the same time I can't ignore that he adjusts well and does some other good things. Statistically we are better than last season and if you thoroughly evaluate the unit, you'd start to realize maybe it's not as bad as some think.

Indications are that players may be more to blame so I'm trying not to be too emotional about how I assess him.

Indications are that while it was a rough start and there's still room for improvement, we actually have improved from last season in a lot of areas, especially third down defense. Our tackling has gotten better recently as well. I think maybe they put too much faith in Warner to relay information as a rookie, but they probably expected him to get through those growing pains quicker. I see them trying to address issues like penalties by pulling Witherspoon off the field. I see them playing the more effective guys (Day, Blair) more often now even though they aren't making the most money.

People are quick to point out the points per game allowed while completely ignoring the fact that our offense is the worst in the league at turning it over, and not just turning it over, but turning it over in scoring position for the opponent. On top of that, we've played four top ten offenses so far and face the #1 offense in the league this week.

Yet, currently, this is where we rank statistically right now:

Total Yards/Game: 19th
Passing Yards/Game: 25th
Rushing Yards/Game: 13th
Yards/play: 16th
Passing yards/play: 13th
Rushing yards/play: 10th
3rd down defense: 12th

Considering the units we've faced and the fact that we have no legitimate pass rusher, #2 corner, or the single high safety this defense needs, evidence points to this being a defense that is better than people think. Evidence shows that we've steadily worked to address problems we had early on in the season (tackling, penalties, third downs), and with that being true, it's reasonable to expect we are going to correct the missed assignments as well. Evidence indicates that perhaps we're jumping the gun in roasting Saleh and calling for him to be fired.

Final thoughts: There are.. As odd as it is to say.. A lot of positive things we've got going. This doesn't mean Saleh has been perfect and can't be better in some ways, but this defense had a lot of issues to fix and maybe we need to be less emotional and recognize it takes time to fix that many problems -- problems which largely appear to be due to lack of experience and a lack of difference-making talent at a few key positions in this scheme.

The 49ers are dead last in defensive take aways. DEAD LAST. Not good.

This is true, especially when the team also leads the NFL in giveaways. The turnover diff is brutal.

This is certainly due to a combination of things as well. Players out of position aren't going to cause turnovers, but players that suck and aren't playmakers don't help either. No pass rush another contributing factor.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

You can scheme offense. But defense needs talent.

One of the things Kyle said when he first arrived here was this ^^^.

That fact is one of the reasons John and Kyle insisted on 6 year contracts; they knew that acquiring the necessary defensive talent was going to take longer than just a couple of years.

That is a very fine point, and to tag along with the post below yours, it is probably true we won't truly know just how much certain players suck or their level until we have some new talent to compare them to.

People have said before, you can only polish a turd so much, but it's still a turd. I'm hopeful that some of these guys can avoid becoming confirmed turds by the end of the year.

Take Sherman's comments with a grain of salt but he laughed at the notion the communication issues were a result of a young Fred Warner wearing the green communication dot...he laughed and said, (paraphrased: No, not at all. Not on the communication breakdowns that have been visible). He actually told Grant Cohn it was a good question, genuinely. LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:

Take Sherman's comments with a grain of salt but he laughed at the notion the communication issues were a result of a young Fred Warner wearing the green communication dot...he laughed and said, (paraphrased: No, not at all. Not on the communication breakdowns that have been visible). He actually told Grant Cohn it was a good question, genuinely. LOL

So what is it? If he's defending Saleh and Warner but out of frustration says "it's a basic frickin coverage" -- and maybe we're reading too much into it -- but if not, it sounds like he's saying nothing less than "these guys around me should know better and are just playing retarded."

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Kyle is still producing. Saleh is not.

You can scheme offense. But defense needs talent.

One of the things Kyle said when he first arrived here was this ^^^.

That fact is one of the reasons John and Kyle insisted on 6 year contracts; they knew that acquiring the necessary defensive talent was going to take longer than just a couple of years.

That's not completely what he meant (face value). This system takes a couple/three years to fully install and once the system is installed, then you can get to a stage of next-man-up and not miss a beat. Back in the 80's and 90's the question was, why were we so successful: was it the talent or the system? It was asked often because guys would go down and the next man up didn't miss a beat. But the talent was specifically brought in to FIT the system. We see that now. It's why a lower-talented WR like Dwight Clark could become a legend.

That comment also was said because KYLE can scheme better than anyone but he still needs the players that fit his scheme. Kyle is almost too confident that way. He explains he doesn't need any bigger-bodied WR's as that's a cop out. The smaller receivers should be able to be schemed open. That's not working too well.

Also, offense dictates games. Walsh's body blow, body blow, upper cut mentality.

Therefore, because the defense is typically in an automatic reactionary position, you need more talented athletes across the board. In a simplified scheme, even more so. It's dangerous because if one key guy goes down, it's hard to then, scheme around that (see Mabin on an island).

No doubt, this is why the first 3 picks of the ShanaLynch era were on defense, Warner was drafted, Reed, and Mitchell, Sherman and Williams signed in FA. And older veteran players were brought in on offense to help lay the foundation of the system.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

So what is it? If he's defending Saleh and Warner but out of frustration says "it's a basic frickin coverage" -- and maybe we're reading too much into it -- but if not, it sounds like he's saying nothing less than "these guys around me should know better and are just playing retarded."

I don't know dude. He's probably just being a pro's pro and backing a rookie DC and player.

My best guess is he's talking about post-snap communication and overall play-recognition. There's some excellent examples in the film thread recently illustrated by thl on this theory.

Why'd he put Mabin over Witherspoon against GB when Ward got hurt? Strange move.

Originally posted by Garce:
Why'd he put Mabin over Witherspoon against GB when Ward got hurt? Strange move.

supposedly witherspoon was hurt too.

Yes. This team is soft. We know.

Either way, do you really think Witherspoon would have done a much better job? LMAO. He's having a Rashard Robinson type of year. Surprised that we havent shipped him to the Jets yet.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Take Sherman's comments with a grain of salt but he laughed at the notion the communication issues were a result of a young Fred Warner wearing the green communication dot...he laughed and said, (paraphrased: No, not at all. Not on the communication breakdowns that have been visible). He actually told Grant Cohn it was a good question, genuinely. LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't know dude. He's probably just being a pro's pro and backing a rookie DC and player.

My best guess is he's talking about post-snap communication and overall play-recognition. There's some excellent examples in the film thread recently illustrated by thl on this theory.

It's all 11 guys. Zone defense is a team defense. All 11 guys must communicate with one another, pre AND post-snap.

Example: If a WR on the right side runs an over route to the left side of the field, that involves three levels communication between the LCB, MLB, and WLB--RCB if there's no vertical or outs on his side.

Example 2: If 2 WRs run a smash concept on one side, the CB and flat defender(SS or SAM) must communicate to delineate assignments. Otherwise, you could end up having the SS/SAM and CB both carry the corner leaving the hitch wide open, when they can make a call and CB takes the corner, the FLAT defender takes the hitch.

There's so much nuance to communicating.