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2019 Defensive Progress & Robert Saleh Hot-seat Tracker

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  • evil
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 38,687
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?

We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

I agree, good post. The ultimate point is it's not all on Saleh. It's not like he's sitting there taking zero responsibility for the issues personally either, but I think some fans are too set on penciling in one guy to blame for everything. A more reasonable observer would concede that more often than not, it's just not that simple.

No one is trying to absolve the DC of all blame, but I think we're being a little impatient and overemotional. I get it, it comes with being a fan. I think we need to see how the team finishes the season before we jump to call for the firing of a guy who oversees a unit that, despite some miscues, is statistically ranked quite a bit higher than they were a year ago and especially than than the year before that.

  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 54,627
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?

We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

I agree, good post. The ultimate point is it's not all on Saleh. It's not like he's sitting there taking zero responsibility for the issues personally either, but I think some fans are too set on penciling in one guy to blame for everything. A more reasonable observer would concede that more often than not, it's just not that simple.

No one is trying to absolve the DC of all blame, but I think we're being a little impatient and overemotional. I get it, it comes with being a fan. I think we need to see how the team finishes the season before we jump to call for the firing of a guy who oversees a unit that, despite some miscues, is statistically ranked quite a bit higher than they were a year ago and especially than than the year before that.

ok,. i think enough time has elapsed with three threads about this guy which has never happened before for this long in the zone. and his supporters have made their case over and over. i find no reason why these things can FINALLY be merged. you as a mod always lecture me about saying the same thing in multiple threads.. seems to me, you people are allowing the same things to happen in these three threads
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 54,627
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, Lynch himself confirmed that just can't happen from the player, from scheme (nobody underneath Mabin) and communicating the situation to the player.

ok nc,,, he SAID the same thing about poor tackling three weeks ago and we still set here one of the worst teams in the nfl in that area., lotta talk. no action being done in my opinion
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?

We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

I agree, good post. The ultimate point is it's not all on Saleh. It's not like he's sitting there taking zero responsibility for the issues personally either, but I think some fans are too set on penciling in one guy to blame for everything. A more reasonable observer would concede that more often than not, it's just not that simple.

No one is trying to absolve the DC of all blame, but I think we're being a little impatient and overemotional. I get it, it comes with being a fan. I think we need to see how the team finishes the season before we jump to call for the firing of a guy who oversees a unit that, despite some miscues, is statistically ranked quite a bit higher than they were a year ago and especially than than the year before that.


I think it's time for a title change for this thread. Would like to use this as a tracker for the defense's progress and a temperature gauge for Saleh's seat at the head of the defense.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I think it's time for a title change for this thread. Would like to use this as a tracker for the defense's progress and a temperature gauge for Saleh's seat at the head of the defense.

Might be cool to go through and list out all the issues/concerns and use as a checklist going forward. Like how tackling improved from the Cards to Packers (I believe).
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I think it's time for a title change for this thread. Would like to use this as a tracker for the defense's progress and a temperature gauge for Saleh's seat at the head of the defense.

Might be cool to go through and list out all the issues/concerns and use as a checklist going forward. Like how tackling improved from the Cards to Packers (I believe).

Yes, most things there are stats to track for. Any non-statistical suggestions we can add to that checklist to watch for?
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Oct 19, 2018 at 8:56 AM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I think it's time for a title change for this thread. Would like to use this as a tracker for the defense's progress and a temperature gauge for Saleh's seat at the head of the defense.

Might be cool to go through and list out all the issues/concerns and use as a checklist going forward. Like how tackling improved from the Cards to Packers (I believe).

Yes, most things there are stats to track for. Any non-statistical suggestions we can add to that checklist to watch for?

Awesome and thanks for taking the lead on this and being the cool rational voice here.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I think it's time for a title change for this thread. Would like to use this as a tracker for the defense's progress and a temperature gauge for Saleh's seat at the head of the defense.

Might be cool to go through and list out all the issues/concerns and use as a checklist going forward. Like how tackling improved from the Cards to Packers (I believe).

Yes, most things there are stats to track for. Any non-statistical suggestions we can add to that checklist to watch for?

Awesome and thanks for taking the lead on this and being the cool rational voice here.

Every group of friends needs a voice of reason in its midst!

Added the following non-statistical keys to focus on observing for the rest of the year:

- Progress of player communication and improvement in the frequency of blown assignments

- Prudent usage of timeouts when the defense needs to regroup

- Player preparedness and performance in pivotal game situations
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Oct 19, 2018 at 9:09 AM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?

We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

I agree, good post. The ultimate point is it's not all on Saleh. It's not like he's sitting there taking zero responsibility for the issues personally either, but I think some fans are too set on penciling in one guy to blame for everything. A more reasonable observer would concede that more often than not, it's just not that simple.

No one is trying to absolve the DC of all blame, but I think we're being a little impatient and overemotional. I get it, it comes with being a fan. I think we need to see how the team finishes the season before we jump to call for the firing of a guy who oversees a unit that, despite some miscues, is statistically ranked quite a bit higher than they were a year ago and especially than than the year before that.

So two things in response to both posts ....

First, we have seen breakdowns of what's happening with the All-22 and it's even worse than what's happening in the broadcasts. Observers do have access to that film and can quickly dissect what's happening and watching players react based on the called scheme. I don't think there's a lot of question there and this is even discussed in the Coach's Film thread and even in posts above (with video) with some really insightful breakdowns outlining what we're seeing repeated through 6 games now in the second year of the same defense. It highlights players from the DL out and through the secondary.

Second.
I don't think the criticism isn't that Saleh isn't "taking responsibility" but does he have the wherewithal to fix the problem. Clearly, that seems to be a challenge given the reoccurrence of the same mistakes and discussions of "communication" by players when you ask them "what happened." At what point is communicating a well-known simple defense constantly becomes the issue? What gives? Why is most of it on Saleh? Because he's the DC, not only that he's spent time as a defensive quality coach for Seattle so at a minimum, he understands what's not working. Again, I think the lack of experience is key here particularly given we projected him as our LB coach, not as our DC. That speaks volumes to me. Does he know how to fix what's happening? Can he hold his position coaches accountable? Again, I'm willing to accept there's going to be a lot of learning on the job, but let's call it like it is and not fault players defense-wide who aren't in the right spots at the right time.

I don't think it's emotional at all to call out things we think are fundamental issues with any unit on the field. More than willing to be patient. However, when there's a clear issue with performing fundamentals, usually that's a sign of coaching quality. And it's not like we haven't seen this before here or even with other teams. We're all rational vets with observing the game to some degree.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 19, 2018 at 9:19 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?

We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

I agree, good post. The ultimate point is it's not all on Saleh. It's not like he's sitting there taking zero responsibility for the issues personally either, but I think some fans are too set on penciling in one guy to blame for everything. A more reasonable observer would concede that more often than not, it's just not that simple.

No one is trying to absolve the DC of all blame, but I think we're being a little impatient and overemotional. I get it, it comes with being a fan. I think we need to see how the team finishes the season before we jump to call for the firing of a guy who oversees a unit that, despite some miscues, is statistically ranked quite a bit higher than they were a year ago and especially than than the year before that.

So two things in response to both posts ....

First, we have seen breakdowns of what's happening with the All-22 and it's even worse than what's happening in the broadcasts. Observers do have access to that film and can quickly dissect what's happening and watching players react based on the called scheme. I don't think there's a lot of question there and this is even discussed in the Coach's Film thread and even in posts above (with video) with some really insightful breakdowns outlining what we're seeing repeated through 6 games now in the second year of the same defense. It highlights players from the DL out and through the secondary.

Second.
I don't think the criticism isn't that Saleh isn't "taking responsibility" but does he have the wherewithal to fix the problem. Clearly, that seems to be a challenge given the reoccurrence of the same mistakes and discussions of "communication" by players when you ask them "what happened." At what point is communicating a well-known simple defense constantly becomes the issue? What gives? Why is most of it on Saleh? Because he's the DC, not only that he's spent time as a defensive quality coach for Seattle so at a minimum, he understands what's not working. Again, I think the lack of experience is key here particularly given we projected him as our LB coach, not as our DC. That speaks volumes to me. Does he know how to fix what's happening? Can he hold his position coaches accountable? Again, I'm willing to accept there's going to be a lot of learning on the job, but let's call it like it is and not fault players defense-wide who aren't in the right spots at the right time.

I don't think it's emotional at all to call out things we think are fundamental issues with any unit on the field.
More than willing to be patient. However, when there's a clear issue with performing fundamentals, usually that's a sign of coaching quality. And it's not like we haven't seen this before here or even with other teams. We're all rational vets with observing the game to some degree.

I don't think it's emotional either. The emotional outbursts saying "fire ______!" are really what I'm referencing when I talk about being overemotional.

It can't be skated around that this defense needed a crapton of work entering last season and I think collectively we are not a finished product. Compound that with a very green DC as you mentioned and there's enough growing pains to go around still. I see it somewhat similar to when Greg Manusky took over. Hopefully the results are better in due time.

I don't want to look at though a tunnel vision lens of course, and like you indicated, we need to hold position coaches accountable too.

People have very valid reasons for questioning and critiquing Saleh, but it's good to explore things on a deeper level too.

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

Yeah, he is probably like "f**k it, we are good, nothing to work on in practice this week."
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, Lynch himself confirmed that just can't happen from the player, from scheme (nobody underneath Mabin) and communicating the situation to the player.

ok nc,,, he SAID the same thing about poor tackling three weeks ago and we still set here one of the worst teams in the nfl in that area., lotta talk. no action being done in my opinion

Do you have the week by week numbers? It looks like the team has improved and I would love to see the metrics you are referring to.
Originally posted by evil:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Saleh even said that's an area they need to get better in...said you can't give up 17 easy points to the home team right out of the gate. Duh.

He says alot.. what is sad is that when he talks like that. his defenders come out and say.. well he is talking about it .. so what. he does nothing to fix it

How do you know he is doing nothing to fix it or other issues ? How do we know he is not a good DC or teacher ? If he keeps his job at the end of the season, it does not mean Kyle is making a mistake. Why ?


We've got a lot of belief in Robert," Lynch said on the "Tolbert & Lund" show. "Is that blind faith? No. It's faith because we know where he's been in his career. We know what his schemes are, what he's teaching.

Because we are not in the class rooms with him, we are not on the practice field with him, or on the sidelines during games. Kyle is though, and he is seeing how Saleh is running his D and what he is teaching and how he coaches his guys. Kyle is watching our film and seeing what the exact mistakes we are making and has a better grasp on where the real problems lie.

You can trust what you see, but what you see is the broadcast version not the all 22 film and we are not watching the game more than once. What you see or I see or anyone else sees may not be completely reflective of the coaching, sometimes it is on the talent and or lack there of. They will continue to build the roster up and find the guys who will fit the scheme and make us a better football team. If moving on from Saleh is the answer, then I am sure that is the direction we will go, but at this point there is a real chance he stays.

We fans can be right at times, but we fans can also come off as close minded at times. And we as fans should not be close minded to the fact that we could also be wrong despite how strongly we may feel. I do hope Saleh finds ways to improves this defense and helps players grow and develop because continuity is a good thing for us and Saleh's future at this point is in Saleh's hands.

What does Lynch know about defensive schemes, tackling and communication on the field?
LOL
  • bud49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,208
Originally posted by NCommand:
NY85...here we go.

So does this mean that most of these players on D are just dumb? Seems this happens every week and is never corrected someone not doing their job.
Is this another Saleh thread or the names keep changing
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