49ers Roster: The Glue, Dead Weight, and Trade Bait

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
On a playoff team for us in the future? Buckner, Day, Blair possibly at big end, Warner, Foster, Malcolm, Sherman and Tartt on defense.

Offense I think the biggest question would be at receiver. Goodwin is the only legit starter there.

For the most part, I agree with this, OTC. So...as of now, the NIners may have as many as 7-8 legitimate defensive starters for a future playoff team. To me, that isn't bad. That is probably what we thought in the beginning of the season. There are always players who get hurt or disappoint so that needs to be factored in.
In your original post, you mentioned around 40 players who, in your opinion are keepers and again, for the most part, I agree with you. Clearly, the secondary has been the biggest disappointment from a position standpoint. On the positive side, the offensive line is playing pretty darn well, especially given the injuries. The injuries make it so much more difficult to evaluate players, guys like Tartt, Pettis, Trent Taylor, McKinnon, and even Jimmy G.

Obviously, the defense has been the biggest culprit this season thus far...and to me, the lack of discipline is simply inexcusable. I know Saleh is the d coordinator and that he has been praised by Shanny and Sherman...but, I don't believe that Warner not hearing (and then miscalling) the defensive signals is an excuse for some of the blatant coverage misses, penalties, poor tackling, and foolish situational play. A good part of that lack of discipline falls on the coaching staff. Also, the fact that certain players like Colbert and Spoon are regressing rather than progressing also points to the coaching staff.

Not cool, man!!

Originally posted by longterm9erfan:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

On a playoff team for us in the future? Buckner, Day, Blair possibly at big end, Warner, Foster, Malcolm, Sherman and Tartt on defense.

Offense I think the biggest question would be at receiver. Goodwin is the only legit starter there.

For the most part, I agree with this, OTC. So...as of now, the NIners may have as many as 7-8 legitimate defensive starters for a future playoff team. To me, that isn't bad. That is probably what we thought in the beginning of the season. There are always players who get hurt or disappoint so that needs to be factored in.
In your original post, you mentioned around 40 players who, in your opinion are keepers and again, for the most part, I agree with you. Clearly, the secondary has been the biggest disappointment from a position standpoint. On the positive side, the offensive line is playing pretty darn well, especially given the injuries. The injuries make it so much more difficult to evaluate players, guys like Tartt, Pettis, Trent Taylor, McKinnon, and even Jimmy G.

Obviously, the defense has been the biggest culprit this season thus far...and to me, the lack of discipline is simply inexcusable. I know Saleh is the d coordinator and that he has been praised by Shanny and Sherman...but, I don't believe that Warner not hearing (and then miscalling) the defensive signals is an excuse for some of the blatant coverage misses, penalties, poor tackling, and foolish situational play. A good part of that lack of discipline falls on the coaching staff. Also, the fact that certain players like Colbert and Spoon are regressing rather than progressing also points to the coaching staff.

Not cool, man!!

Right, to that point it is difficult to assess who is mostly to blame in this case as we're not there at practice every week. I remember a few years back the Seahawks were busting coverages left and right while adjusting to new wrinkles in their scheme by their new DC Richard. It was the same system, just different stuff.

Eventually they got back to being very good that same season so I hope we do something similar.

After this season, I plan to do another version of this thread, laid out a little differently.

Going into next off-season, we should expect the team to seek out a major upgrade for the X receiver position and cut Garcon loose.

X/SE - Draft/FA, Bourne

Y/SLWR - Pettis/James

Z/FL - Goodwin, Draft/FA


Let Pettis be the primary slot guy and backup at the other positions with James taking over slot if Pettis has to move. Trade Taylor and use that pick to get a speedster to mirror what Goodwin does at the flanker spot, and let a new addition compete at X with Bourne.

Colbert will be fine. He played the first few games with a bad hip. Now that he's healthy, he'll be our best safety. One other player who is a CORE player is Mostert. All-Pro gunner on special teams and finally got a chance at RB after playing for 6 teams. He could develop into a star with his 4.32 speed and his toughness. Just needs the opportunity.

I believe that a lot of people here are a little too optimistic (I'm one of them at times). First, thinking that 1st and 2nd year players are going to develop even when when they look promising. That's just not the case. We are counting our chickens before they hatch. Second, identifying that we are 3 or 4 top tier players away from being great and just assigning a future draft pick or FA to satisfy that need. It's not that easy to get top tier guys (i.e. we haven't drafted a pro bowl WR in 22 years) and you can't count on having them until you actually get them.

Bottom line, we have a lot of holes and it's not always easy to fill them. You never know when you are going to hit on a star.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Right, to that point it is difficult to assess who is mostly to blame in this case as we're not there at practice every week. I remember a few years back the Seahawks were busting coverages left and right while adjusting to new wrinkles in their scheme by their now DC Richard. It was the same system, just different stuff.

Eventually they got back to being very good that same season so I hope we do something similar.

After this season, I plan to do another version of this thread, laid out a little differently.

I think one of the main questions for this team moving forward is this....do the players the Niners have right now on defense fit the scheme and is the scheme designed well enough for long term success?
One of the Niners' commentators raised this point and I think it is a good one. Many of the guys the team has drafted or obtained on offense in the Lynch / Shan era (Kittle, Taylor, McG, CJ, Breida for example) have developed nicely. Most of the guys they have drafted / obtained on defense (other than Sherman...a guy already developed) have not....at least to the extent they were expected (Warner being the one exception perhaps).

Until the team can answer this question and deal with it, they will not become a playoff team. Just saying.

Cheers!

Originally posted by captainhook:

I believe that a lot of people here are a little too optimistic (I'm one of them at times). First, thinking that 1st and 2nd year players are going to develop even when when they look promising. That's just not the case. We are counting our chickens before they hatch. Second, identifying that we are 3 or 4 top tier players away from being great and just assigning a future draft pick or FA to satisfy that need. It's not that easy to get top tier guys (i.e. we haven't drafted a pro bowl WR in 22 years) and you can't count on having them until you actually get them.

Bottom line, we have a lot of holes and it's not always easy to fill them. You never know when you are going to hit on a star.

No, but when you draft in the top 10 every year, you kind of hope to...

This team is so desperate for star talent I just don't know if we'll be able to do enough now even to turn things around in 2019.

Just praying we add two big time receiving weapons and a better guard to help protect Jimmy.

We need upgrades almost everywhere. OG, WR x 2, DE X 3, CB, FS, OLB, DT even next to Buck. And I don't want to hear any of this "we have faith in so and so at the position" because first off, I'm tired of putting our faith into hopes and wishes for players that let us down, and secondly, with how frequently our players get hurt, we're going to have to get guys that are ready to come in and perform so we don't have scrubs roaming the field anytime we need a backup to play.

If Jimmy plays like 2017, he's a star level talent, but outside of him, our only true star talent is Kittle, Breida, and Joe.

On defense all we have is Sherman and Buckner. That's pathetic.

We need to find another Takeo Spikes. This defense needs some nastiness and intimidation factor. Right now we have none. Good ol Takeo. Dude looked like he just got out of jail. Not many missed tackles with this guy LOL. I remember one play where Spikes took a bit of a cheap shot against the opposing OL and the guy got up pissed and started running until he realized it was Spikes and then he stopped mid step. That's what we are lacking...we need tough mean guys out there. Sometimes I'm afraid Warner and Foster are too skinny. Sure LBs have changed to be more rangy but still miss a boss in the middle.

Originally posted by pete98146:
We need to find another Takeo Spikes. This defense needs some nastiness and intimidation factor. Right now we have none. Good ol Takeo. Dude looked like he just got out of jail. Not many missed tackles with this guy LOL. I remember one play where Spikes took a bit of a cheap shot against the opposing OL and the guy got up pissed and started running until he realized it was Spikes and then he stopped mid step. That's what we are lacking...we need tough mean guys out there. Sometimes I'm afraid Warner and Foster are too skinny. Sure LBs have changed to be more rangy but still miss a boss in the middle.

I totally agree. We need a pure tackler. Like a Middle LB. Warner, Foster, and the great Malcolm are all outside LBs to me.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

This team is so desperate for star talent I just don't know if we'll be able to do enough now even to turn things around in 2019.

Just praying we add two big time receiving weapons and a better guard to help protect Jimmy.

We need upgrades almost everywhere. OG, WR x 2, DE X 3, CB, FS, OLB, DT even next to Buck. And I don't want to hear any of this "we have faith in so and so at the position" because first off, I'm tired of putting our faith into hopes and wishes for players that let us down, and secondly, with how frequently our players get hurt, we're going to have to get guys that are ready to come in and perform so we don't have scrubs roaming the field anytime we need a backup to play.

If Jimmy plays like 2017, he's a star level talent, but outside of him, our only true star talent is Kittle, Breida, and Joe.

On defense all we have is Sherman and Buckner. That's pathetic.

I disagree.

Warner, Foster, Tartt, Day and Armstead would start on alot of teams.

We are just lacking a pass rush and that trickles down and affects the rest of the D.

Originally posted by SteveYoung:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

This team is so desperate for star talent I just don't know if we'll be able to do enough now even to turn things around in 2019.

Just praying we add two big time receiving weapons and a better guard to help protect Jimmy.

We need upgrades almost everywhere. OG, WR x 2, DE X 3, CB, FS, OLB, DT even next to Buck. And I don't want to hear any of this "we have faith in so and so at the position" because first off, I'm tired of putting our faith into hopes and wishes for players that let us down, and secondly, with how frequently our players get hurt, we're going to have to get guys that are ready to come in and perform so we don't have scrubs roaming the field anytime we need a backup to play.

If Jimmy plays like 2017, he's a star level talent, but outside of him, our only true star talent is Kittle, Breida, and Joe.

On defense all we have is Sherman and Buckner. That's pathetic.

I disagree.

Warner, Foster, Tartt, Day and Armstead would start on alot of teams.

We are just lacking a pass rush and that trickles down and affects the rest of the D.

Don't get me wrong, I agree to that point. But none of those guys are stars. Foster and Warner are on the cusp though. Tartt and Day are solid but not potential pro bowl caliber to me.

Originally posted by TheXFactor:

Originally posted by pete98146:

We need to find another Takeo Spikes. This defense needs some nastiness and intimidation factor. Right now we have none. Good ol Takeo. Dude looked like he just got out of jail. Not many missed tackles with this guy LOL. I remember one play where Spikes took a bit of a cheap shot against the opposing OL and the guy got up pissed and started running until he realized it was Spikes and then he stopped mid step. That's what we are lacking...we need tough mean guys out there. Sometimes I'm afraid Warner and Foster are too skinny. Sure LBs have changed to be more rangy but still miss a boss in the middle.

I totally agree. We need a pure tackler. Like a Middle LB. Warner, Foster, and the great Malcolm are all outside LBs to me.

We need play makers, plain and simple. Intimidating power, or scary speed with sick ball hawking skills. We need guys that can manhandle the guy they line up against. Buckner is the only one we have that fits that bill.

I had to spit out my coffee with laughter. Perhaps on the clock needs to look up the definition of core?? A core player is a player to build the team around, usually a team has 2 on offense and 2 on defense, and 3 if the qb is on a low pay scale. All other plays are interchangeable, see the NE patriots, GB packers etc.

When the OP put Core and CJ Beathard, Kendrick Bourne, Shonn Coleman and Richie James as Core, they simply made a mistake. These are back ups that might not even be picked up by other teams if cut.

Originally posted by 9erred:

I had to spit out my coffee with laughter. Perhaps on the clock needs to look up the definition of core?? A core player is a player to build the team around, usually a team has 2 on offense and 2 on defense, and 3 if the qb is on a low pay scale. All other plays are interchangeable, see the NE patriots, GB packers etc.

When the OP put Core and CJ Beathard, Kendrick Bourne, Shonn Coleman and Richie James as Core, they simply made a mistake. These are back ups that might not even be picked up by other teams if cut.

You missed the expansion later on clarifying the levels of "core" players, which we broke down into key starters, key veterans, and core depth/role players.

It has already been established that the word choice should have been a bit different but I am sure with a thread this large you obviously weren't going back to read every page to find that explanation.