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49ers select TE George Kittle - Round 5, Pick 146

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Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
I mean the tag does make some players more upset, seeming like the team doesn't want to invest in them long term, we've seen it many times, Kirk Cousins is a good example. But I can't see how he thinks he should get top 5 WR money, the most I'd go is $17M a year, he's a better player at his position than AA is, and AA got $17M a year.

I would totally agree with that if they didn't offer him a resetting the TE market type of contract...at what point is it not investing in him and the player/agent wanting ridiculous money? There should be some middle ground...You know how SF does their contracts for the most part. Gonna have to bend off that template.

See I can't do the he's better than AA at his position stuff. I think he's better than Jimmy G is at his position should he be getting $26M per?

Here's how I'd design his contract. He's a TE, so I'd pay him market value plus a premium on being a TE, and I'd do a lot of Likely-to-be-earned bonuses regarding WR stuff, like catches, TD receptions, YAC's, Average Yards Per pass reception (things like that). In other words, he gets to be paid as a TE *and* if he does his WR/Catching stuff as a WR, he gets paid as a WR too (using bonuses).

So a ton of pass catching incentives? LTBE or NLTBE?

Here's a breakdown of what that means and effects the cap...

"NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year's cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year's cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time."
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by 49erminion:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by cciowa:
if they traded buck who many thought was impossible for one first rounder.. then i am sure the asking price would be two first rounders at least for kittle with no f**king stupid exchanging of draft picks.. sure hope he stays but if he goes he goes. that is why in this day and age you never get have favorite players.. and remember if you got something good, that just means someone else wants it

great thing is they really don't have to worry about it for a season, he can then be tagged if the team so chooses.

Titans have 24M in space. Imagine Kittle blocking for Henry.

Yeah gonna cost them 2 1sts a 3rd plus a decent vet...fwiw their in the red in 2021 about $10M
yes if you make the trade 85 suggested.. try to make it with a team that maybe has a good tight end we can get as well. kind of what the jets did.. they actually got a dang good safety from seattle in the trade along with the two picks
Kittle wants it all lol
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
I mean the tag does make some players more upset, seeming like the team doesn't want to invest in them long term, we've seen it many times, Kirk Cousins is a good example. But I can't see how he thinks he should get top 5 WR money, the most I'd go is $17M a year, he's a better player at his position than AA is, and AA got $17M a year.

I would totally agree with that if they didn't offer him a resetting the TE market type of contract...at what point is it not investing in him and the player/agent wanting ridiculous money? There should be some middle ground...You know how SF does their contracts for the most part. Gonna have to bend off that template.

See I can't do the he's better than AA at his position stuff. I think he's better than Jimmy G is at his position should he be getting $26M per?

Here's how I'd design his contract. He's a TE, so I'd pay him market value plus a premium on being a TE, and I'd do a lot of Likely-to-be-earned bonuses regarding WR stuff, like catches, TD receptions, YAC's, Average Yards Per pass reception (things like that). In other words, he gets to be paid as a TE *and* if he does his WR/Catching stuff as a WR, he gets paid as a WR too (using bonuses).

So a ton of pass catching incentives? LTBE or NLTBE?

Here's a breakdown of what that means and effects the cap...

"NFL contracts can have incentives that can give the player money if the player hits certain thresholds set in the contract. There are two types of incentives: Likely to be earned (LTBE) and Not likely to be earned (NLTBE). Incentives are classified as LTBE or NLTBE based on what the player did in the previous season in relation to the incentive. If a player would have earned the incentive in the previous year, the incentive is considered LTBE and the opposite is true for NLTBE. LTBE incentives count against the current year's cap space for the team while NLTBE incentives are charged against the following year's cap space. Some examples of incentives would be making the Pro Bowl, catching a certain amount of receptions, or based on playing time."

That's where the complication lies, because NLTBE *don't* count against the cap until *next year.* which means if you design the bonus right, Kittle can earn it in 2021, but won't count until 2022. '22 is when we (hopefully) have a ton more cap space.
Originally posted by Giedi:
That's where the complication lies, because NLTBE *don't* count against the cap until *next year.* which means if you design the bonus right, Kittle can earn it in 2021, but won't count until 2022. '22 is when we (hopefully) have a ton more cap space.

Right, but will agree to that

They're gonna have to backload his deal no matter, such is life when you have a good team and have to pay guys.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by Giedi:
That's where the complication lies, because NLTBE *don't* count against the cap until *next year.* which means if you design the bonus right, Kittle can earn it in 2021, but won't count until 2022. '22 is when we (hopefully) have a ton more cap space.

Right, but will agree to that

They're gonna have to backload his deal no matter, such is life when you have a good team and have to pay guys.
Agree, however, personally in a normal year, I'd be totally against backloading. I particularly detest backloading, because it doesn't reflect the reality that football players athletic skills erode over time (In general). Typically a football player (as you well know) always gets injured, it's the nature of the sports. So that means a typical football player aged 23 typically has a 3+ year average career. So a two year contract is almost 66% of a typical football players career. A 3 year contract is almost 100% of a typical football players career. So backloading a two or three year contract is paying the player *more* when his skills are at the lowest of his career. To me that's not a reflection of reality at all.

Having said that, this is *not a typical year* for sure, and so backloading Kittle - while detestable to me - has to be an option because of the cap reduction in 2021. If we can get him signed it's going to be great for our team.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree, however, personally in a normal year, I'd be totally against backloading. I particularly detest backloading, because it doesn't reflect the reality that football players athletic skills erode over time (In general). Typically a football player (as you well know) always gets injured, it's the nature of the sports. So that means a typical football player aged 23 typically has a 3+ year average career. So a two year contract is almost 66% of a typical football players career. A 3 year contract is almost 100% of a typical football players career. So backloading a two or three year contract is paying the player *more* when his skills are at the lowest of his career. To me that's not a reflection of reality at all.

Having said that, this is *not a typical year* for sure, and so backloading Kittle - while detestable to me - has to be an option because of the cap reduction in 2021. If we can get him signed it's going to be great for our team.

Right this isn't a typical yr...it's harder and harder for teams with a ton of talent to front load deals. I still think CMC's contract is a good blue print

https://overthecap.com/player/christian-mccaffrey/5592/
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Aug 3, 2020 at 6:03 AM ]
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Right this isn't a typical yr...it's harder and harder for teams with a ton of talent to front load deals. I still think CMC's contract is a good blue print

https://overthecap.com/player/christian-mccaffrey/5592/

Agree. That's a good template, and I'd do that kind of backloading *only* for Kittle. I wouldn't do that for Trent, next year, unless somehow the vaccines aren't ready yet and we're still facing plague issues and/or the economy hasn't recovered yet. As for Trent, Warner, Juszczyk, and the rest, assuming we get past 2021, Praag has to continue his practice of heavily backloading these contracts. It's so much better having cap flexibility vs cap hell. Imagine going into 2021 because we have a whole bunch of backloaded deals instead of going in (as per AB81) with almost 80 Million in potential cap space (if we don't sign kittle, but also get some player restructurings done in 2021).

In short, backload Kittle's contract like heck, and then frontload Trent's contract like heck, and draft well in 2021 and 2022.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree. That's a good template, and I'd do that kind of backloading *only* for Kittle. I wouldn't do that for Trent, next year, unless somehow the vaccines aren't ready yet and we're still facing plague issues and/or the economy hasn't recovered yet. As for Trent, Warner, Juszczyk, and the rest, assuming we get past 2021, Praag has to continue his practice of heavily backloading these contracts. It's so much better having cap flexibility vs cap hell. Imagine going into 2021 because we have a whole bunch of backloaded deals instead of going in (as per AB81) with almost 80 Million in potential cap space (if we don't sign kittle, but also get some player restructurings done in 2021).

In short, backload Kittle's contract like heck, and then frontload Trent's contract like heck, and draft well in 2021 and 2022.

Agreed, I also don't think Trent is gonna get a 4 or 5 yr deal (at least with actual GTD cash in those 4th/5th yrs). Something like a 3 yr $45M deal seems about right. He's gonna be 33 when the season starts next yr...people throwing out $20M per are being a little silly, especially now with the cap issues.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Just cut him. It's not worth the drama.
the report was that the niners expressed interest in this option

Originally posted by Beezy33:
Don't think Jed extends ShanaLynch without Kittle deal getting done. My guess is they both told Jed, not doing extensions without our guy so don't care what it takes, make it happen.

I hate the media and know this is probably Kittle's agent driving up the price because he has probably hit his peak market value. Kittle is such a blue collar guy and I'd be shocked if he opts out. He wants to play football and do it for us!

they already did extend Shanahan and Lynch. what do you mean?
Originally posted by NYniner85:

Did they ever say anything like this with Buckner? Just checking.
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