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Originally posted by elguapo:
It's funny people were saying overspending in free agency is not the answer but ask the Giants defense if that is the case. Their defense was horrible last year and they got Jenkins, a great nose tackle and also Vernon from Miami and that has transformed their whole defense and a huge reason why they are so good right now. So overspending is a good thing sometimes if it is worth it. Those players would've helped the Niners so damn much.

most times overspending doesn't help a team and puts them further behind due to being strapped to those huge contracts...NY is kinda the exception IMO. One of the big things is they have a FQB and have drafted a couple good young players...we are hurting in both departments.

I hope we spend some coin, but don't bust a nut on just this off season.

Players I'd like to target:

Pierre Garcon-WR
J.C. Tretter-C
Kevin Zeitler_OG
Nick Fairley_NT
Bennie Logan-NT
Brandon Williams-NT
A.J. Bouye-CB
Dre Kirkpatrick-CB
Nick Perry-OLB
Zac Brown-ILB

Obliviously I'm down for the big names like Alshon Jeffery, Trumaine Johnson, Dontari Poe, Jamie Collins, Chandler Jones, Melvin Ingram...just not sure we will be able to get them.
Whether we have $5 in FA or $105, players are FREE agents.

They want to go to the most competitive team possible for the most money.
  • Does the team have a FQB?
  • Taxes?
  • State of the Franchise. Are they rebuilding? If so, are they on the rise?
  • How about their offensive and defensive systems? Utilization and effects on one-another.
  • Stability at the coaching and FO?
  • Image/reputation
  • Historical place?
I honestly don't think we will even make a splash. Especially if Baalke is still around. I will not get my hopes up to then see a Zane Beadles be our most expensive free agent signing. Yippee

This looks like another boring 2017 FA period to me. I hope I'm wrong.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
most times overspending doesn't help a team and puts them further behind due to being strapped to those huge contracts...NY is kinda the exception IMO. One of the big things is they have a FQB and have drafted a couple good young players...we are hurting in both departments.

I hope we spend some coin, but don't bust a nut on just this off season.

Players I'd like to target:

Pierre Garcon-WR
J.C. Tretter-C
Kevin Zeitler_OG
Nick Fairley_NT
Bennie Logan-NT
Brandon Williams-NT
A.J. Bouye-CB
Dre Kirkpatrick-CB
Nick Perry-OLB
Zac Brown-ILB

Obliviously I'm down for the big names like Alshon Jeffery, Trumaine Johnson, Dontari Poe, Jamie Collins, Chandler Jones, Melvin Ingram...just not sure we will be able to get them.

It really doesn't matter if we bust a nut in the offseason because of the sheer volume of cap space and lack of talent we have coming up through the pipeline.

For instance let's imagine we busted a nut last year like the Giants did and signed Jenkins, Vernon, and Harrison to the exact same contracts the Giants did.

Do you know how much cap space the 49ers would enter 2017 with after they cut Kaepernick, Brooks, and Bethea? $49 million. Come 2018 only 26℅ of the original guaranteed money is scheduled to be left on those contracts, and all can be cut for fairly substantial cap savings.

There is literally no competitive incentive for the 49ers not to bust a nut in CA assuming they have the opportunity to do so. The accounting situation looks even more favorable this year than last too. Any notion that busting a nut is going to hinder the team in any way is a false flag. The numbers just dont support that story.
The Niners did not need to keep Mike Iupati and Michael Crabtree (tongue in cheek.) and Boone. Letting quality players leave the building is a sure way to keep rebuilding. Imagine if Boone and Iupati still were the interior guards, then the niners would not have had to draft Garnett, and they could have gotten a pass rusher or ILB with that pick, that is how you build, if you keep letting players go you are always rebuilding..

The big issue is it appears the team will be on its 4th head coach in 4 years, let that sink in, how can anyone excpect to win when we are the cleveland browns of the West.
Originally posted by elguapo:
It's funny people were saying overspending in free agency is not the answer but ask the Giants defense if that is the case. Their defense was horrible last year and they got Jenkins, a great nose tackle and also Vernon from Miami and that has transformed their whole defense and a huge reason why they are so good right now. So overspending is a good thing sometimes if it is worth it. Those players would've helped the Niners so damn much.
Exactly. And don't forget all that money Denver spent on their defense and it paid off with a Surer Bowl. A lot of ppl on this site laughed at the money the Giants spent. It was well worth it. And they supplemented that FA spending with good defensive draft picks in Apple and Collins. I 'm not sure why ppl seem to think you can't do both. It's either or.
Originally posted by 9erred:
The Niners did not need to keep Mike Iupati and Michael Crabtree (tongue in cheek.) and Boone. Letting quality players leave the building is a sure way to keep rebuilding. Imagine if Boone and Iupati still were the interior guards, then the niners would not have had to draft Garnett, and they could have gotten a pass rusher or ILB with that pick, that is how you build, if you keep letting players go you are always rebuilding..

The big issue is it appears the team will be on its 4th head coach in 4 years, let that sink in, how can anyone excpect to win when we are the cleveland browns of the West.

Those were tough calls then though. Iupati was oft-injured (still is) and he got, what, $40M at that time and we weren't running power anymore (moving to a ZBS). Boone sucks. Garnett, Beadles and Tiller are better than him BUT we were counting on Brandon Thomas reaching his potential (fail). Crabtree hated Kaepernick and our conservative offense. Took less money with the Raiders. But your point is valid. You know the market, you know what these players will get on it so you better be drafting and developing just in case they do leave for more $ or better opportunities. Fortunately, our OL isn't the problem today. Most of last year it was though!
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Whether we have $5 in FA or $105, players are FREE agents.

They want to go to the most competitive team possible for the most money.
  • Does the team have a FQB?
  • Taxes?
  • State of the Franchise. Are they rebuilding? If so, are they on the rise?
  • How about their offensive and defensive systems? Utilization and effects on one-another.
  • Stability at the coaching and FO?
  • Image/reputation
  • Historical place?

Those are all very rational items to consider. However, almost always players in their prime go to the highest bidder. Maybe if the numbers are microscopically close they will go to the better team on the smaller deal -- but I think that's the exception to the rule. It's all about the guaranteed money.

The only time we see quality free agents intentionally reject larger offers from lesser teams is when that player already has enough in the bank. And, therefore, has the luxury of opting for victories over money.

One rule in FA remains universally true: Players value money over championships. Championships are a priority for fans and a nice to have for players.
Teams that usually spend big in free agency have an established QB. The 49ers need to shore up the QB position before they spend big in free agency. But before all of that they need to get a big time director of football operation in place to call the shots. Until the front office is fixed,a new GM is hired and a big time coaching staff is hired the rest is just plain elementary. This organization needs over hauling/leadership from top to bottom. In early to mid January we will know what direction this organization is thinking about going in. If it's Jed,Tom Gamble and Chip Kelly then it will be more of the same.
Seats are paid for by sucker SBL holders, so MOAR $$$ for the Yorks. The money won't be spent on the team.
[ Edited by father49er on Dec 22, 2016 at 7:54 AM ]

This is cap $. Jed can't pocket it. They can choose not to spend it which just leaves $80 just sitting there but it's not like Jed can use it to get a new pair of gold nuts. That is what the PSLs are for.
[ Edited by stonecold590 on Dec 22, 2016 at 7:55 AM ]
Originally posted by McClusky:
It really doesn't matter if we bust a nut in the offseason because of the sheer volume of cap space and lack of talent we have coming up through the pipeline.

For instance let's imagine we busted a nut last year like the Giants did and signed Jenkins, Vernon, and Harrison to the exact same contracts the Giants did.

Do you know how much cap space the 49ers would enter 2017 with after they cut Kaepernick, Brooks, and Bethea? $49 million. Come 2018 only 26℅ of the original guaranteed money is scheduled to be left on those contracts, and all can be cut for fairly substantial cap savings.

There is literally no competitive incentive for the 49ers not to bust a nut in CA assuming they have the opportunity to do so. The accounting situation looks even more favorable this year than last too. Any notion that busting a nut is going to hinder the team in any way is a false flag. The numbers just dont support that story.

I'm not saying don't spend money but let's be proactive and smart about it...there's gonna been a free agency every yr with good talent available. Don't give AJ $13 million a yr just because we need a WR. Like I said NY had some pieces in place before the FAs they brought in, which also is appealing to free agents.

Some of the names I put up there aren't the top players available but would be nice upgrades...we show improvement and we might be more appealing to top FA guys in the future, right now the only way we get big names is by grossly overspending for them.
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Unfortunately, FA's are not going to get any team over the top unless that team has drafted well. This team has NOT drafted well. Don't get me wrong... there are some quality players that are on this team through the draft... but, the gamble on injured athletes and "diamonds in the rough" projections have not worked out well. This team still can't find a quality receiver... Which is maddening since Rick Smith of all people manages to pull two out if moronic ass.....
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by lazy:
I thought the 49ers going spend money last year..I am not so hopeful that they will spend money in this up coming free agency.

Before they can start spending any money they need to have a GM that will create hope that any player that comes here will have a chance to win in the next two years.

We will never know how many players never even returned phone calls last off-season because they could see the train wreck coming. Good example is Kelechi Osemele. Lot of folks here were going crazy over the possibility of him coming here. He never even sniffed. Went to the Raiders because they were already on the rise. Hence, I don't expect any major FA signings this off-season. We have nothing to attract them except money and the good ones can get that anywhere.

Absolutely. Given the state of the franchise the cap space they've accumulated is actually a very good thing for any prospective GM's. Incoming management will have a high draft pick and a lot of cap room to work with so we may not have as much trouble adding a GM as some think.

As you've indicated, SF really is going to have to start hitting on more of their draft picks in order to build momentum. Also to your point, it may actually make sense for SF to bank some of that excess cash to add players once they are close to competing (like the Raiders did) and instead focus on extending the good/decent players on the roster. I would offer extensions to Hyde, Reid, and Kerley. I would also encourage Kaepernick to stay during the transition period but I figure he's going to want to leave, even for less money.
[ Edited by bzborow1 on Dec 22, 2016 at 8:47 AM ]
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by McClusky:
It really doesn't matter if we bust a nut in the offseason because of the sheer volume of cap space and lack of talent we have coming up through the pipeline.

For instance let's imagine we busted a nut last year like the Giants did and signed Jenkins, Vernon, and Harrison to the exact same contracts the Giants did.

Do you know how much cap space the 49ers would enter 2017 with after they cut Kaepernick, Brooks, and Bethea? $49 million. Come 2018 only 26℅ of the original guaranteed money is scheduled to be left on those contracts, and all can be cut for fairly substantial cap savings.

There is literally no competitive incentive for the 49ers not to bust a nut in CA assuming they have the opportunity to do so. The accounting situation looks even more favorable this year than last too. Any notion that busting a nut is going to hinder the team in any way is a false flag. The numbers just dont support that story.

I'm not saying don't spend money but let's be proactive and smart about it...there's gonna been a free agency every yr with good talent available. Don't give AJ $13 million a yr just because we need a WR. Like I said NY had some pieces in place before the FAs they brought in, which also is appealing to free agents.

Some of the names I put up there aren't the top players available but would be nice upgrades...we show improvement and we might be more appealing to top FA guys in the future, right now the only way we get big names is by grossly overspending for them.

I think 'being smart about it' is going for the best FA's available at the top market prices. I argued this last season, but everything as it relates to the 49ers needs to be thought of in the form of opportunity costs and comparative advantages. Right now the 49ers have next to no talent, and the guys they might see as their pipeline talent like Buckner, Robinson, and Garnett are so far away from FA (3-4 years) that virtually no contracts they sign are going to have substantial guaranteed money that can influence the future decisions of those guys. Hence the opportunity cost of going big in FA are lower for the 49ers than any team in the NFL.

Sure a 3 year $24 million contract for a guy like Garcon looks a lot more palatable on paper than lets say a 5 year $65 million contract for Jeffrey. However, you have to consider the comparative advantages the 49ers have over other squads. Garcon might fit in great for a team like Minnesota that Garcon represents an upgrade at receiver that gives them more flexibility to resign guys like Barr, Floyd, and Rhodes. Probably at that price the 900 yard contribution Garcon gives them will look more favorable on a per $ than lets say the 1050 yard contribution Jefferey would give us here at about 60% of the price.

However, the 49ers don't incur the same kind of opportunity cost the Vikings do, and the additional cost incurred hits their cap space which is far and away their most abundant asset from which the 49ers don't have good substitute options for. The additional marginal benefit the 49ers get from Jeffrey (able to match up with more #1 corners, dictate more coverage, be open on a larger variety of routes, and be a quality top option in an offense over-weights the cap savings the 49ers would get for a Garcon vs. Jeffery, even if the production doesn't justify the $ difference in a vacuum. Plus the simple gameplanning advantages for a coach, and the advantages for a young QB to have a #1 receiver that is available in almost all games is huge.

I believe the way the 49ers approached FA last season is economically irrational, and to chase value over talent given where they are right now and the resources available is a fools errand. It's akin to a country like Vietnam turning down factory jobs, because they've looked at the data and have seen that tech based economies have a higher standard of living so they're going to hold out for those jobs. They want to be like the Steelers and the Packers without having any of the elements in place that make the way the Steelers and Packers run their organization operationally efficient.

People want to be that team that has great contracts and abundant talent, but it's not a case of just flipping a switch to get there. The team needs to use the cap space it has, to net the best possible talent.

BTW I really like Zeitler too, but I don't think he's going to be cheap. Probably looking at a Brandon Brooks type contract for him.
[ Edited by McClusky on Dec 22, 2016 at 9:35 AM ]
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