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NCommand
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Originally posted by titan:
IMO...We need to get better by adding or replacing players at these positions. It doesn't matter who the GM or coach is if we don't it will still be the same results.
1QB
2 OL
1DT
2LB
2WR
1FS
2CB
Agreed...not sure we need that many secondary though...maybe 1. For instance, add a SS and Robinson/Ward stay outside. Move Ward back to FS, add a press CB. I was hoping Tartt could pan out as a more tradition in-box SS but O'Neil don't play that.
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NCommand
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Originally posted by McClusky:
How do you define fixing the roster?
If we're talking by the time we're potentially contenders again we're looking at 2-4 seasons down the road. Given general attrition rates I'd expect about 35 new players by then. The 2013 Raiders who I believe are the most equivalent team to the current 49ers roster have 11 guys in 2016 who were on that squad.
This. About 15 new additions each year with the hope 1-3 are impact players: FQB, WR, OLB, ILB, OL, CB/S. And of the 15, several of those will be immediate upgrades over what's currently on the roster and become higher-quality starters. And as a result, the depth gets better each year so if you are forced to start players from the back-end 53 d/t a rash of injuries, it's not as crippling (i.e. from Bowman+Ray-Ray to Wilhoite+Sunseri
).
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hondakillerzx
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we need 20-30 players atleast. this team is just bad
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English
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Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
we need 20-30 players atleast. this team is just bad
we got, what, 20 or so on I/R. I think 12-15 initially. But the right guys.
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fan49
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bowman, tarrt, hyde, staley, beadles, ward, garnett, armstead, lynch, tiller, brown, kerley, defo, dorsey, vance, RAY RAY, are the only keepers so far imo. we need 6 maybe 7 more starters.
QB ?
RB Hyde
LT Staley
LG Tiller Beadles
C ?
RG Garnett
RT Brown
WR ? Kerley
WR ???
TE Vance
NT Dorsey
DE BUCKNER
DE ARMSTEAD
OLB LYNCH
OLB ?
MLB Bowman
MLB Ray Ray maybe a beast maybe a back up
CB Ward
CB ?
Safety Tarrt
Safety ?
Nickel ?
Important roles to fill
NO really good pass rushers
1 Open safety spot
1 Open corner
No QB
No Center
No #1 receiver
No #2 receiver
In no order thats where we have to get better.
Obviously it would be nice to pick up veteran back ups and a starter or 3
We need to draft BPA of these needs in the first
1. QB
2. Safety
3. Corner
4. Pass Rush OLB
5 WR
In no order again
That Leaves us
Tabor
Williams both
Garrett
Peppers
Jamal Adams
Watson
Trubs
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NCommand
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Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
we need 20-30 players atleast. this team is just bad
we got, what, 20 or so on I/R. I think 12-15 initially. But the right guys.
Maybe the NFL will let us keep 83 on the roster next year...you know...to keep the product at least competitive?
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FL9er
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If the 49ers land a new GM from outside the organization as expected, say goodbye to some familiar names. That should make McClusky happy.
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English
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
we need 20-30 players atleast. this team is just bad
we got, what, 20 or so on I/R. I think 12-15 initially. But the right guys.
Maybe the NFL will let us keep 83 on the roster next year...you know...to keep the product at least competitive?
or we could just stash them straight onto i/r?
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McClusky
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Originally posted by FL9er:
If the 49ers land a new GM from outside the organization as expected, say goodbye to some familiar names. That should make McClusky happy.
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SofaKing
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Definitely 30+...Might not happen right away, but this is a multi-year rebuild. I'd expect the majority of the roster to turnover in 2-3 years. That's pretty typical in the NFL, and entirely necessary for a team in our position.
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LifelongNiner
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It's hard for me to throw out an actual number. You have to be careful in thinking that you have to replace everyone. For example, if you look at the 1978 and 1979 49ers teams, there were some players on that team that played for our Super Bowl team.
There are a few criteria that you use to determine who stays or goes. Obviously bad players are the first to go. After that, lazy players or cancerous players. Finally, players that are paid too much have to go.
After that is sorted out, you should be left with quality role players, high effort guys, solid starters, and maybe even some overachievers. These players, when playing next to great or elite talent will stand out because of their high effort and/or fundamental skils.
At quarterback, I can't justify keeping anyone. Either they are terrible or the salary doesn't equal the pay.,
RB: Carlos Hyde is a keeper. I don't see him as an elite back, but I think when healthy,, he can be very good and used in a variety of ways.
WR: Torrey Smith- Hard to justify this, but we've seen about a handful of plays in two years that shows what he can do. He needs to be put in a position where he is really only asked to take the top off of defenses. Chip Kelly will need to adapt his play calling. Smith's value will increase once he has a legit starting receiver opposite of him that can run routes, catch, move to chains, etc.
Quinton Patton- I remember when he was drafted and flew out here early. This guy wants it and oozes passion. It usually works against him and the team. I see him as the 3rd or 4th receiver at best. He will be dependent on having a QB that can hit him in stride consistently. Once he has that, I see big play ability from him in a backup role. Patton against the other team's 4th best DB should be a winning matchup for us. I doubt he is offered much on the open market and could be signed to a cheap 2 year extension. Let him battle it out in training camp with our other young receivers.
Bruce Ellington- Similar future role as Patton, but he is even worse with his injury history. I'm curious to see what Chip Kelly can do with this guy. He is a 3rd or 4th receiver at best.
Jeremy Kerley- the undisputed 3rd receiver. I don't see Patton or Ellington leapfrogging this guy. Sign him to a reasonable deal.
Ironically, based on my assessment, I don't see the receivers on the team as the problem, but more so how they are used and how the misuse has disrupted so much. Add just one receiver to the mix, like a Mike Williams or a Corey Davis, along with a legit QB and our group of receivers will surprise people. There would be enough talent on paper for a good OC to create matchups in our favor. Our QB would only need to find and exploit those matchups.
TE: Garrett Celek- Terrible year. Given the benefit of the doubt because of the previous year.
Vance McDonald- Big play ability. He also brings lots of drops to the picture. I'll take it. He is a guy that should be the number 1 or 2 option in our pass offense. Just get him the ball and let him go to work.
Our other TEs are promising, but no one is a keeper.
OL: Outside of Marcus Martin, I can't point to anyone that absolutely has to go.
CB: Robinson, Ward, Johnson.
S: I am not sure what to make of this group. I think we could stand to just start all over at safety. Maybe we keep Tartt and continue to develop him, but I do not see a starter. Not yet and he was drafted fairly high. There isn't a playmaker or all around solid guy to be had in the bunch. And sadly, because of other needs, we can't even begin to address it until 2018.
LB: Armstrong, Bowman, Lynch. This is another group that needs to be rebuilt. A few short years ago, we had what we thought would be one of the greatest linebacking corps ever. Now? Smh. Add in an elite playmaker to this group (Garrett maybe?) and this group changes. Aaron Lynch can be a wrecking machine as the number 2 pass rusher with attention on the other side of the field. At inside linebacker, adding a solid vet would due. I just would like a Chris Borland type. They do not have to be a great in pass coverage. But someone that can wrap up and tackle running backs consistently. Preferably near the line of scrimmage if not behind.
DL: Absolute force in DeForest Buckner. I think Buckner's strong rookie year should push Arik Armstead. Put a dominant NT between the two and we should have something in our starting D-line guys. I like Glen Dorsey and would like to keep him on, along with Dial, Ronald Blair are keepers are backups.
K/P: Not pressed to replace Dawson or Pinion.
KR/PR: I want a serious upgrade here. Preferably someone that can contribute, even if it's as the 5th best guy at their position (like a CB).
So I'm counting 27 guys at the moment, which is half the roster. It isn't good, but it isn't as bad as many make it out to be. And once we add some top players at each level that can elevate the play of others around them, the 27 we have will look a lot better.
I hope to come out of this draft and free agency with 3 of those players.
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9erred
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I just did an analysis of the roster, factored in who is under contract for 2017, and in theory 45 players could be back in 2017.
Cut Kaepernick, Gabbert -thats right start from scratch at qb.
re sign : Ponder- 3 year league minimum deal with very little guaranteed money
Rod Streater-WR
Kerley WR
Chris Jones DT
Chris Harper- WR
The Glaring holes can be filled via Free agency and the draft.
#1 need QB and back up qb
#2 need ILB- one in FA one in the draft (undrafted FA's like bellore do not cut it)
3- NT- FA or draft
4. OLB with pass rushing skills, FA or draft
WR- assuming they have Torrey Smith, Streater, Kerley, Barnibridge, Chris Harper and Ellington, I am OK with no WR's, none are necessary until the team addresses QB and back up QB.
That is right folks, considering the contracts, NO OL, DB's need to be addressed or 3-4 DL (outside of NT)
So basically the Niners need to strengthen their middle on defense, (reduce running yards against them
improve their pass rush
Get a QB who can throw the ball so teams do not stack the box vs the run.
The team has lots of money in FA. If they address NT, ILB in FA, and back uiip QB
Draft QB
Pass Rusher
MLB
NT
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NCommand
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Originally posted by 9erred:
I just did an analysis of the roster, factored in who is under contract for 2017, and in theory 45 players could be back in 2017.
Cut Kaepernick, Gabbert -thats right start from scratch at qb.
re sign : Ponder- 3 year league minimum deal with very little guaranteed money
Rod Streater-WR
Kerley WR
Chris Jones DT
Chris Harper- WR
The Glaring holes can be filled via Free agency and the draft.
#1 need QB and back up qb
#2 need ILB- one in FA one in the draft (undrafted FA's like bellore do not cut it)
3- NT- FA or draft
4. OLB with pass rushing skills, FA or draft
WR- assuming they have Torrey Smith, Streater, Kerley, Barnibridge, Chris Harper and Ellington, I am OK with no WR's, none are necessary until the team addresses QB and back up QB.
That is right folks, considering the contracts, NO OL, DB's need to be addressed or 3-4 DL (outside of NT)
So basically the Niners need to strengthen their middle on defense, (reduce running yards against them
improve their pass rush
Get a QB who can throw the ball so teams do not stack the box vs the run.
The team has lots of money in FA. If they address NT, ILB in FA, and back uiip QB
Draft QB
Pass Rusher
MLB
NT
Great work...just did the same and I agree.
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dtg_9er
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- Posts: 33,204
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
It's hard for me to throw out an actual number. You have to be careful in thinking that you have to replace everyone. For example, if you look at the 1978 and 1979 49ers teams, there were some players on that team that played for our Super Bowl team.
There are a few criteria that you use to determine who stays or goes. Obviously bad players are the first to go. After that, lazy players or cancerous players. Finally, players that are paid too much have to go.
After that is sorted out, you should be left with quality role players, high effort guys, solid starters, and maybe even some overachievers. These players, when playing next to great or elite talent will stand out because of their high effort and/or fundamental skils.
At quarterback, I can't justify keeping anyone. Either they are terrible or the salary doesn't equal the pay.,
RB: Carlos Hyde is a keeper. I don't see him as an elite back, but I think when healthy,, he can be very good and used in a variety of ways.
WR: Torrey Smith- Hard to justify this, but we've seen about a handful of plays in two years that shows what he can do. He needs to be put in a position where he is really only asked to take the top off of defenses. Chip Kelly will need to adapt his play calling. Smith's value will increase once he has a legit starting receiver opposite of him that can run routes, catch, move to chains, etc.
Quinton Patton- I remember when he was drafted and flew out here early. This guy wants it and oozes passion. It usually works against him and the team. I see him as the 3rd or 4th receiver at best. He will be dependent on having a QB that can hit him in stride consistently. Once he has that, I see big play ability from him in a backup role. Patton against the other team's 4th best DB should be a winning matchup for us. I doubt he is offered much on the open market and could be signed to a cheap 2 year extension. Let him battle it out in training camp with our other young receivers.
Bruce Ellington- Similar future role as Patton, but he is even worse with his injury history. I'm curious to see what Chip Kelly can do with this guy. He is a 3rd or 4th receiver at best.
Jeremy Kerley- the undisputed 3rd receiver. I don't see Patton or Ellington leapfrogging this guy. Sign him to a reasonable deal.
Ironically, based on my assessment, I don't see the receivers on the team as the problem, but more so how they are used and how the misuse has disrupted so much. Add just one receiver to the mix, like a Mike Williams or a Corey Davis, along with a legit QB and our group of receivers will surprise people. There would be enough talent on paper for a good OC to create matchups in our favor. Our QB would only need to find and exploit those matchups.
TE: Garrett Celek- Terrible year. Given the benefit of the doubt because of the previous year.
Vance McDonald- Big play ability. He also brings lots of drops to the picture. I'll take it. He is a guy that should be the number 1 or 2 option in our pass offense. Just get him the ball and let him go to work.
Our other TEs are promising, but no one is a keeper.
OL: Outside of Marcus Martin, I can't point to anyone that absolutely has to go.
CB: Robinson, Ward, Johnson.
S: I am not sure what to make of this group. I think we could stand to just start all over at safety. Maybe we keep Tartt and continue to develop him, but I do not see a starter. Not yet and he was drafted fairly high. There isn't a playmaker or all around solid guy to be had in the bunch. And sadly, because of other needs, we can't even begin to address it until 2018.
LB: Armstrong, Bowman, Lynch. This is another group that needs to be rebuilt. A few short years ago, we had what we thought would be one of the greatest linebacking corps ever. Now? Smh. Add in an elite playmaker to this group (Garrett maybe?) and this group changes. Aaron Lynch can be a wrecking machine as the number 2 pass rusher with attention on the other side of the field. At inside linebacker, adding a solid vet would due. I just would like a Chris Borland type. They do not have to be a great in pass coverage. But someone that can wrap up and tackle running backs consistently. Preferably near the line of scrimmage if not behind.
DL: Absolute force in DeForest Buckner. I think Buckner's strong rookie year should push Arik Armstead. Put a dominant NT between the two and we should have something in our starting D-line guys. I like Glen Dorsey and would like to keep him on, along with Dial, Ronald Blair are keepers are backups.
K/P: Not pressed to replace Dawson or Pinion.
KR/PR: I want a serious upgrade here. Preferably someone that can contribute, even if it's as the 5th best guy at their position (like a CB).
So I'm counting 27 guys at the moment, which is half the roster. It isn't good, but it isn't as bad as many make it out to be. And once we add some top players at each level that can elevate the play of others around them, the 27 we have will look a lot better.
I hope to come out of this draft and free agency with 3 of those players.
Love this! Not sure about Reid being expendable, but few other questions of your comments.
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pdizo916
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If tartt can convert frim S to MLB like tommy davis in carolina, then we would need 51 new players