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Joe Montana Legacy Secured

It's never been a debate in my mind, and Brady has said it himself that Joe is the best and that the rules are different now.
Originally posted by blunt_probe:
It's never been a debate in my mind, and Brady has said it himself that Joe is the best and that the rules are different now.

Giselle said "Joe is the best" and that let the air out of brady's balls!
The argument can go both ways, very easily.

What I like to casually point out is that NFL Network Top Ten Montana games.....I can't see any other QB having something worthy to compare, including Brady.

Someone once asked non sarcastically "What is the signature highlight you picture of Brady when you see highlights?"

And all he can think of is Brady putting his hands on his head after winning his first SB. That's it. Not a signature throw or anything.

With Montana, there are tons of these plays.

I just happened to rewatch a piece of the '83 NFC Champ game loss against Redskins recently. Montana threw one of the nicest TD bombs I've ever seen in my life. I once heard him described as maybe the best deep ball thrower for touch, and it might be true. He threw some dimes to offset his precision in the WCO.

Debates are cool, but I wouldn't trade being a 49ers fan to become a Patriots fan, not in a thousand years.
  • 9moon
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It's not that Young was not able to beat Dallas, it was really the Charles Haley trade... that gave them the edge... had we traded Haley to another team (AFC), Dallas would not have gotten those 2 rings... Especially the 1st one, they would not have beaten us at Home..

I dont even know why we made a deal w/an up coming Cowboys, for a mere 2nd rounder, a 1st round position trade and a clause of Dallas can not trade Haley to the Raiders..
Montana is the greatest of all time. A lot of the reasons why Brady has not surpassed Joe have been stated in this thread, but in summary:

Montana's record in the SB and the playoffs includes perhaps the most iconic play in NFL history (the Catch), a 92-yard, game-winning TD drive, and blow out wins over two HOFers (Marino and Elway), where Montana outplayed the best of his peers. Montana's SB performances are without blemish.

Brady is forever associated with the tuck rule, two losses in the SB, including one to ruin a perfect season, Vinatieri's clutch kicks in the snow (tuck rule game) and to clinch two of Brady's four SBs, the Seahawks' failure to convert from the one yard line ... and cheating.

Let's be clear, since Tom Brady's Patriots were found guilty of cheating in 2007, they are 1-2 in the SB and their one victory came on the heels of a second cheating scandal that has resulted in Brady being punished by the league for his direct involvement and subsequent cover-up. Of their three victories from 2001 through 2004, they were accused of cheating by the Rams and it is highly doubtful they stopped their habit of illegally video taping opponents' practices before playing the Panthers or the Eagles (or the teams they beat to get to the SB).

Moving past the disparate iconography, the rules themselves have changed so dramatically that it is really difficult to gauge how good a player like Brady would have been in the 1980s, or how much better Montana would have been playing today. Don't forget, Montana was hit - a lot - he broke his back and took quite a few shots to the head/helmet during his career. How many SBs does Brady play in if defenses were allowed to hit his legs or come crashing in with the crown of their helmets? How many SBs does Brady play in if his "mediocre" receiving corp was allowed to be manhandled by DBs more than five yards down the field? It is hard to compare players from different eras, but the physicality of the game peaked before Brady entered the league.

This notion that Montana was surrounded by better players is somewhat exaggerated. Montana won two SBs without Jerry Rice. They played together for 4 years (in Rice's rookie season, Montana was out with a back injury). Other than Rice, who are the HOF offensive players that played with Montana? I'd like to see Roger Craig get in, but as it stands there are exactly ZERO players not named Rice or Montana who played for Bill Walsh's vaunted west coast system that are in the HOF (Steve Young is there too, but it's not exactly like Young and Montana were on the field together). Brady and Moss were together for 2 years. Moss will make the hall. Brady has also had Gronk for the past two SBs, Wes Welker for a couple ... All in all, Brady and Montana will probably have played with the same number of HOF offensive players.

Further to this, not only are the rules much more conducive to prolific QB numbers these days, but the salary cap era's parity means that, for a really good team like the Patriots, they are often playing one of their two playoff games each year against a team that, a year prior, wasn't even good enough to make the playoffs. Aside from Manning's Colts/Broncos, what other team did the NE Patriots worry about being really, really good for a decade?

Montana and the 1980s 49ers had to battle Washington, NY Giants, and Chicago every year These four teams were responsible for 9 out of the 11 SB wins from 1981 through 1991. Yes, there were tons of teams that perpetually sucked and parity was meant to solve that problem - but the playoffs in the 1970s and 1980s were basically the same, small collection of extremely talented teams killing each other year after year. To me, that is a harder round robin tournament to come out of victorious than what similar teams must go through today.
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

I just happened to rewatch a piece of the '83 NFC Champ game loss against Redskins recently. Montana threw one of the nicest TD bombs I've ever seen in my life. I once heard him described as maybe the best deep ball thrower for touch, and it might be true. He threw some dimes to offset his precision in the WCO.

I would have to flip a coin between that and '90 NFCCG as to most gut-wrenching 49er loss I've ever seen...of course the 3-year run of heartbreak 2011-13 were no picnic, but those other two just resonate a bit more with me.
Originally posted by theduke85:
SB XLIX, WIN vs Seattle:
  • Seattle was up 24-10 heading into the 4th quarter of SB XLIX.
  • The last time Seattle lost a game while leading by 10+ points in the 4th quarter was in 2004.
  • 29 times a team had a 10+ point lead in the second half of a Super Bowl. Before this last Super Bowl, those teams were 29-0.
  • Brady gets the ball back with 6:52, trailing 21-24...
  • Leads a 10-play, 64-yard drive, culminating in a go-ahead touchdown pass.
  • On his last drive, Brady went 9-9 for 71 yards (136.6 passer rating)
  • Brady's overall 4th quarter: 13-15, 124 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 140.7 passer rating

Those are some pretty ridiculous season-on-the-line moments from Brady. Very "Joe Cool"-esque, if I do say so myself...

Montana was his idol growing up. And that last drive was very Montanaesque. At that 6:52 mark, I looked at my wife and said 'well, if he wants to be in the conversation with Montana, he needs to go all the way down the field and take the lead.'

He did, and as far as I'm concerned, he's in the conversation. It's just that you can't beat perfection in the big game.
  • 9moon
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Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

I just happened to rewatch a piece of the '83 NFC Champ game loss against Redskins recently. Montana threw one of the nicest TD bombs I've ever seen in my life. I once heard him described as maybe the best deep ball thrower for touch, and it might be true. He threw some dimes to offset his precision in the WCO.

I would have to flip a coin between that and '90 NFCCG as to most gut-wrenching 49er loss I've ever seen...of course the 3-year run of heartbreak 2011-13 were no picnic, but those other two just resonate a bit more with me.

there were no way we gonna beat Washington back in 1983, they were the better team.. they had the better chemistry.. it was 21-0 by the time our team woke up.. it was also a reverse flea flicker that Montana threw that pretty TD to Solomon..

The Ref also didn't help when he called a PI on Ronnie Lott..

But, Brady would not be Brady in so many ways had he not seen JOE MONTANA play..
Originally posted by 9moon:
there were no way we gonna beat Washington back in 1983, they were the better team.. they had the better chemistry.. it was 21-0 by the time our team woke up.. it was also a reverse flea flicker that Montana threw that pretty TD to Solomon..

The Ref also didn't help when he called a PI on Ronnie Lott..

But, Brady would not be Brady in so many ways had he not seen JOE MONTANA play..

Gonna have to disagree on that '83 Championship game. The Niners got screwed. That was actually called holding on Lott even though the replays showed that his arms were down at his sides. Here's a Wiki entry on the end of the game:

"The Redskins then marched on a 13-play, 78-yard drive that took 6:12 off the clock and set up Moseley's 25-yard field goal with 40 seconds left in the game. This possession was aided by two controversial penalties:

On second down and 10 on the San Francisco 45-yard line, Theismann threw a long incompletion intended for wide receiver Art Monk, but cornerback Eric Wright was called for pass interference at the 18-yard line. It seemed that nobody had a reasonable chance to catch the ball, which, under the rule, would have nullified any pass interference penalty. San Francisco head coach Bill Walsh was quoted after the game as saying "It could not have been caught by a 10-foot Boston Celtic."On third down and 5 from the San Francisco 13-yard line, cornerback Ronnie Lott was called for holding on what seemed to be a harmless act with Brown far away from where the pass fell incomplete."
I wonder how prepared the Pats are when tom Brady does retire. They have went through so many backups. They traded Cassell after he led them to a 11-5 season so there wouldn't be a QB controversy.

Originally posted by 9moon:
there were no way we gonna beat Washington back in 1983, they were the better team.. they had the better chemistry.. it was 21-0 by the time our team woke up.. it was also a reverse flea flicker that Montana threw that pretty TD to Solomon..

The Ref also didn't help when he called a PI on Ronnie Lott..

But, Brady would not be Brady in so many ways had he not seen JOE MONTANA play..

Who cares if it was 21-0...Niners were down 17-0 to ATL in NFCCG, gosh, why didn't the "better" team win? The fact is the '83 49ers tied it, and DUH, got robbed on a couple terrible penalty calls...so to say there was "no way" they were going to beat Washington is ridiculous.
[ Edited by DelCed2486 on May 12, 2015 at 2:42 PM ]
Originally posted by crake49:
Originally posted by theduke85:
SB XLIX, WIN vs Seattle:
  • Seattle was up 24-10 heading into the 4th quarter of SB XLIX.
  • The last time Seattle lost a game while leading by 10+ points in the 4th quarter was in 2004.
  • 29 times a team had a 10+ point lead in the second half of a Super Bowl. Before this last Super Bowl, those teams were 29-0.
  • Brady gets the ball back with 6:52, trailing 21-24...
  • Leads a 10-play, 64-yard drive, culminating in a go-ahead touchdown pass.
  • On his last drive, Brady went 9-9 for 71 yards (136.6 passer rating)
  • Brady's overall 4th quarter: 13-15, 124 yards, 2 TD, 0 INT, 140.7 passer rating

Those are some pretty ridiculous season-on-the-line moments from Brady. Very "Joe Cool"-esque, if I do say so myself...

Montana was his idol growing up. And that last drive was very Montanaesque. At that 6:52 mark, I looked at my wife and said 'well, if he wants to be in the conversation with Montana, he needs to go all the way down the field and take the lead.'

He did, and as far as I'm concerned, he's in the conversation. It's just that you can't beat perfection in the big game.

Anyone could have dissected that Seattle defense. That defense was a shell of its former self -- depleted by injury and wracked by three straight seasons of extra playoff wear and tear.

The real reason Green Bay lost in the divisionals was because Aaron Rodgers sucked ass. He had quite a few throws that were gimmes and would have put the game even further out of reach but he was un-characteristicly off target during that game.
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Originally posted by crake49:
Originally posted by 9moon:
there were no way we gonna beat Washington back in 1983, they were the better team.. they had the better chemistry.. it was 21-0 by the time our team woke up.. it was also a reverse flea flicker that Montana threw that pretty TD to Solomon..

The Ref also didn't help when he called a PI on Ronnie Lott..

But, Brady would not be Brady in so many ways had he not seen JOE MONTANA play..

Gonna have to disagree on that '83 Championship game. The Niners got screwed. That was actually called holding on Lott even though the replays showed that his arms were down at his sides. Here's a Wiki entry on the end of the game:

"The Redskins then marched on a 13-play, 78-yard drive that took 6:12 off the clock and set up Moseley's 25-yard field goal with 40 seconds left in the game. This possession was aided by two controversial penalties:

On second down and 10 on the San Francisco 45-yard line, Theismann threw a long incompletion intended for wide receiver Art Monk, but cornerback Eric Wright was called for pass interference at the 18-yard line. It seemed that nobody had a reasonable chance to catch the ball, which, under the rule, would have nullified any pass interference penalty. San Francisco head coach Bill Walsh was quoted after the game as saying "It could not have been caught by a 10-foot Boston Celtic."On third down and 5 from the San Francisco 13-yard line, cornerback Ronnie Lott was called for holding on what seemed to be a harmless act with Brown far away from where the pass fell incomplete."

my post was based on my memory.... and I'm glad Wiki is around to help you and correct what I may have not fully remember.. but the fact is, Washington that year was just too awesome... the Diesel was unstoppable, well, until hey faced the Raiders.. Even their kicker had only missed 1 FG..
Originally posted by 9moon:
my post was based on my memory.... and I'm glad Wiki is around to help you and correct what I may have not fully remember.. but the fact is, Washington that year was just too awesome... the Diesel was unstoppable, well, until hey faced the Raiders.. Even their kicker had only missed 1 FG..

The entire NFC East was usually a juggernaut in those days and that Redskins team was really good - no question about it. I was always just bitter because after staging a huge comeback, they basically lost on a highly questionable penalty. And I really was up for a Niner-Raider Super Bowl. The Raiders were still a big deal back in those days and it would have been epic.

And, since this is a Joe Montana thread, I should point out that Montana TOTALLY out-played Theisman. I think Montana went for something like 350 yards. If memory serves, the Niners couldn't run on them and it was basically all on Montana.
[ Edited by crake49 on May 12, 2015 at 3:02 PM ]
I never considered Brady over Montana. Imagine if Montana played with the rules that Brady has today. Heck Brady even has a rule named after him after his season ending injury in the first game of the 08 season.

Also you never seen any of highlights of Joe exploding on the sidelines to teammates and coaches and sometimes refs like you do Brady when things aren't going right.
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