Joe Montana Legacy Secured

Originally posted by theduke85:

Also, someone (perhaps even you) brought up an excellent point earlier in the topic: just because Joe was more athletic doesn't mean he was better. They cited an obvious example: Randy Moss versus Jerry Rice.

Rice lasted until 16th overall in the draft, in part because of his lackluster 40 time. Go and watch a Jerry Rice highlight type. His highlights are not eye-popping. 90% of his highlights are him having a defender beat and making an uncontested, nondescript catch for a huge gain. Contrast that to a Randy Moss highlight tape, where he is constantly doing otherwordly things -- leaping into the clouds to make a catch, blowing by entire defenders with his 4.20 speed, catching a ball 50 yards downfield, etc... (Of course, this is a 49ers board so people are going to take umbrage to this comment and romanticize Rice highlight tapes.)

No one in their right mind would hold this against Rice. Just because he wasn't "flashy" doesn't mean he wasn't a complete force to be reckoned with. The dude was a machine, a player that the league was absolutely terrified of. Rice is indisputably the best receiver in history (and, in my opinion, the best player in NFL history) but he sure as hell wasn't the most physically gifted.

This could be another thread. The great center fielders always make catches look easy because they pick up the ball so quickly and have great pace. Jerry the same. No one made better adjustments to a ball in flight than jerry.

Also he was ten times stronger and tougher than randy moss. Ask steve at**ter.

We say we can't compare eras but what we can compare is each player to their own era. To me the stat I look at most is points scored. All stats are team stats so a QBs td total for example is great but it is still a team stat. Therefore for me, the total points scored by a team is the one I look at most. That being said, I just spent some time looking up points scored for Montana's and Brady's teams vs the league avg for each individual year. A QBs job is to lead the team to score points (among some other things) so lets see how they did.

Montana starting with 1980 - Montana didn't start all year as didn't Brady in 2001 and 2016

49ers points scored from 1989-1990 vs league avg each year with +/-:

320-328 -8
357-331 +16
372-322* +50 (actual was +28, prorated due to strike)
432-349 +83
475-339 +136
411-345 +66
374-328 +46
459-324 +135
369-324 +45
442-330 +112
353-322 +31

That's an avg of +65 for Montana lead 49ers teams vs league avg....Pretty damn good.

Now Patriots points scored from 2001-2016 (-2008 due to injury).

371-323 +48
381-347 +34
348-333 +15
437-344 +94
379-330 +49
385-331 +54
589-347 +242
427-344 +83
518-352 +166
513-355 +158
557-364 +193
444-375 +69
468-361 +107
465-365 +100
441-364 +77

That's an avg of +99 points scored for Brady lead Pats vs league avg...amazing.

I like this comparison simply because it is a way to compare players from different eras. Players from thier own eras played by the same rules. How they did verse their piers, then comparing the stats from there, works IMO. Just comparing Montana lead 49ers avg 398 points per season compared to Brady's lead Pats 448 doesn't hold up because of the different era debate. Most would have guessed Brady scored more than Montana so how much more they scored vs their eras competition is way better.

One side note: After 1990 Montana missed 1991, played only 1 game in 1992 before ending his career with 2 seasons in KC. In those two seasons, Montana lead Chiefs averaged 324 points compared to league avg of 312 for only a +12 per season. Add that a Dave Krieg lead 1992 KC team scored 348 points and a Steve Bono lead 1995 KC team scored 358 means an avg of 353 points scored in the seasons before and after Montana. The league avg those years was 322, that's a +31 for Krieg and Bono compared to only a +12 for Montana. Now also add the 49ers from 1991-94 averaged 451 points per season where the league avg was only 307 for a +144.

Those numbers don't look good for Montana. As soon as he left the 49ers they scored more when it was harder to score. Steve Young was actually better at producing points for SF. The Chiefs also produced more in the season before and after his arrival with two different mediocre Qbs.

Patriots in 2008 lead by Matt Cassel scored 179 less points than the previous season under Brady. This season the Patriots under Garoppolo and Brissett avg 20.25 points per game compared to 30 under Brady.

You guys can draw your own conclusions...I have mine.

Youre right. Joe Montana isn't as good as Steve Bono and Dave Krieg and Steve Young. Why didn't we see that earlier? Great points you made there. You've opened my eyes. What is the point of this thread at all. Not only is Brady better than Montana, but he's even better than Krieg and Bono, who are even better greats.

"We say we can't compare eras but what we can compare is each player to their own era."

Comparing points (two different eras)... go ahead and completely leave out the part where defenses were allowed to drape all over WRs and headhunt QBs back in the days. Brady benefited a lot from tuck rule and rules catered for QBs / passing league...

Kudos to Krieg / Bono...

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Originally posted by LVJay:

"We say we can't compare eras but what we can compare is each player to their own era."

Comparing points (two different eras)... go ahead and completely leave out the part where defenses were allowed to drape all over WRs and headhunt QBs back in the days. Brady benefited a lot from tuck rule and rules catered for QBs / passing league...

Kudos to Krieg / Bono...

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Tuck rule was one play in his career lol. He still had to drive the team down the field to get the game into OT and then again in OT to win it in a blizzard. How many games has Joe had in blizzard conditions?

And once again...early in Brady's career defenses could still get away with a lot they now cannot do however Joe never had to deal with salary cap turnover on his stacked teams.

I agree comparing points and stats across different eras is difficult. But winning and performance in each era should stand on its own. Joe had better teams when he won his rings. Brady had to keep winning as his teams were gutted due to cap. How many other teams during that same time won as much as the Pats, went to as many SBs as the Pats and how many QBs led their teams to more playoffs than Brady?

He had lesser teams playing in an era when its very difficult to stay on top and missed the playoffs once when he was the starter. The other time they missed the playoffs was when he got hurt and they went 16-0 the year prior losing the SB due to a miracle Dave tyree play.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

This could be another thread. The great center fielders always make catches look easy because they pick up the ball so quickly and have great pace. Jerry the same. No one made better adjustments to a ball in flight than jerry.

Also he was ten times stronger and tougher than randy moss. Ask steve at**ter.

You're really not seeing the analogy do you?

Originally posted by LVJay:

"We say we can't compare eras but what we can compare is each player to their own era."

Comparing points (two different eras)... go ahead and completely leave out the part where defenses were allowed to drape all over WRs and headhunt QBs back in the days. Brady benefited a lot from tuck rule and rules catered for QBs / passing league...

Kudos to Krieg / Bono...

#

Omg are you guys clueless....but I was expecting that. Tuck rule? Embarrassing argument has absolutely nothing to do with playoffs games.

Defenses you play are IRRELEVANT since we aren't comparing their actual stats. The amount of points scored between Joe and Tom is irrelevant. The amount you score more or less vs the QBs of your era is relevant. Brady was better at producing points than Montana not because he scored more, but because he scored more in his era compared to league avg.

The avg in Brady's era is higher due to what you claim much easier to play offense today compared to back when Joe played. Just because Joe had trouble against a good Giants defense and held the ball for 8 seconds and took a shot to the back which would be legal today doesn't mean QBs got "murdered" back in the day. Yes you could hit high or low without repercussions but let's not pretend that was happening all game long. Let's also not pretend today's QBs don't get hit harder than they ever did back then because they do. Ever heard of "in the grasp rule"? A rule in the 80's ( thank God it's gone) that once a QB was basically touched the play was over. The harder to pass back in the 80's is a myth. 5 yard Chuck rule started in 1978. Defenses today play a lot more bump and run and far more sophisticated than back then. Receivers today still get tattooed, as hard as ever. That's difference is penalties do get get called more extending drives due to today's rule changes. That doesn't make it easier to pass, it makes it easier to score. Approx 6 drives per season more on avg,that's it (and just because a drive gets extended doesn't mean point will be scored). That's why today's offenses only score approx 16 points more during Brady years compared to Montana's. The fact we all know QBs on avg are better now than ever before and should be scoring more, therefore the "it's easier to score today" is true but not that much, a couple of tds and a FG per season...wow so much harder.

Montana lead his team to score 400 points or more (the mark of a very good offense) 5 times with 475 being the best (would equate to 491 if he played in Bradys era). He didn't come within 16 points of 400 any other year. Brady lead his team to score 400 ten times (all above 416). Including 4 times over 500. The most any other organization in NFL history has is 2 500 point seasons.

Brady produces more points per game than any QB in history, including Manning. It's why I chuckle when I hear Brady is GOAT yet Manning is best regular season QB. Brady scored more, has a better rating, turns the ball over less and wins more than Manning. Sorry Brady is the best regular season QB. Brady is that best playoff QB, Brady is the best clutch QB. Montana still owns best SB QB, mainly due to his 4th game.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
If brady's resume speaks for itself, why are you talking so much?

Winning doesn't always measure the true contributions of a player. I love the niners but I'm not a homer. There's a lot of GOATs who aren't niners and its easy to acknowledge that, right? Peyton brown hannah lt so many. Not a problem.

But the Brady debate is one where I don't go there. Except for durability I don't see his skill set putting him in the hyper elite category. Not just in regards to Joe but others as well. I just haven't felt like I'm watching a someone who's performing skills that we never see in others.I did feel that way when I saw Joe play, and a couple other qb's as well. SO, all the stats in the world -- although important -- don't counter that perception, for me.

Anyway I really hope thl and johnny del have some time to post real football analysis on this thread because the other back and forth -- all pros, different eras, steroids, yadda yadda -- really isn't going anywhere.

if you are comparing skill sets then aaron rodgers blow joe montana out the water. rodgers arm is insane. and he can throw on the run. in fact, nobody is more accurate than rodgers on the run maybe other than yours truly steve young.

i mean let's drop all the GOAT talk and be serious here. just be objective and compare rodgers to montana, who's more impressive as far as physical talent goes? just be very very honest. IMO it's not even close. even steve young actually had a better all around skill set. there are many people who believes young had higher peak than montana. stats say so too.

but QBing is not about just physical talent. it never was. that's why montana was the GOAT. montana was a natural. he was a great winner. he was deadly in a big game. because QBing isn't just about the arm talent. it's not about the wheels either. i see these QBs at the combine doing great things. dude running 4.5s. they agile. these guys have guns. ryan leaf was pretty talented. i know ryan leaf. he was freaky good in college. but his heart was a size of peanut. he couldn't handle pressure. all that physical talent goes down to toilet when things go wrong. 1 INT leads to throwing several more because he couldn't handle it mentally.

yes, it's never about the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. brady has a heart of a lion. dude cried about getting picked 199th after winning 2 mvps. i never seen a player who's more addicted to winning.

The fact I have to crap on Joe is pissing me off......But I have to to show the select few what literally everyone else knows, and has known for years quite frankly. Brady is GOAT, Joe is clearly #2...#2 all time is pretty damn good.

#2 is still a great place. johnny u was once a solid #1. he was the greatest till about 1988 ish. but now he is somewhere between 3-6 for most people.

there will be a dude who will dethrone brady someday.

Originally posted by natediaz:

#2 is still a great place. johnny u was once a solid #1. he was the greatest till about 1987 ish. but now he is somewhere between 3-6 for most people.

there will be a dude who will dethrone brady someday.

I agree, he may or may not win 5 SBs, but he'll get three or 4 and have Rodgers like numbers or better. Do everything great, be clutch etc.....not sure if he is born yet though...

Originally posted by Vegasodds101:
I agree, he may or may not win 5 SBs, but he'll get three or 4 and have Rodgers like numbers or better. Do everything great, be clutch etc.....not sure if he is born yet though...

this guy!

Originally posted by elguapo:
Great points they really cannot counter what you said. It's a Brady longer to win 4 than Montana. Plain and simple. Also Brady was a game manager for his first one he actually was not impressive at all. Montana has been impressive throughout his career Brady has not.

brady was an impressive game manager in his 1st season IMO. pats did limit the plays because he was a 1st timer. and he had few really bad outings which hurt his stats. but overall he was pretty damn good. there's a reason why brady started the SB and bledsoe got traded.

and he was clutch when it mattered the most. that 4th qtr drive in the SB was magical. john madden keep saying 'be safe and go to OT' 'i don't agree with this decision' made it even more impressive. actually many pats fans believe that was the greatest moment in the pats history. that was the birth of the greatness.

year after that brady led the league in TD and finished 6th in yards. hardly a game manager. name me a game manager who led the league in TDs and top 10 in yards.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Or maybe its the brady fans who are delusional, who cant appreciate what joe has done?

A lot of brady fans -- not all -- actually havent seen Joe play. The opposite isnt true. Most Montana fans are Montana fans because they lived through his career.

I have no idea what your saying with Joe having a Tailor made system. That just makes no sense to me. Joe stepped into the wco and ran the system in a way very few other people could have done at that point in their career 18 months in.

Very much doubt Brady would have done an equally competent job at that point in his career running bill walshes wco.

He did it with a pretty average line, nondescript running backs, freddy solomon and dwight clark.

I dont think any quarterback year-and-a-half into his career could run through the progressions welshfield Inn to the system as efficiently and effectively as Joe did. One of the Hallmarks of the WcO that year was how many times the 49ers found themselves dealing with 2nd and four or three situations. Don't think I've ever seen a team be so consistently effective on first down in bringing high pressure short-yardage situations against d's.

This is where I'd really like tHL and Johnny Del to weigh in. I woulld really like them to cut up some plays that show the mental game in action for brady and montana. I think that would be really interesting helpful in educating people on both sides of the discussion.

i can't really speak for the pats fans. but honestly who didn't watch Joe play if you are a football fan? i mean niners were a dynasty. if you are old enough you saw montana and niners because they were always on tv.

i briefly lived in the south in early 90's. everybody had niners starter jacket.

it's like how everybody is forced to watch pats nowdays. because they are always on TV and always on the big stage. it's hard not to watch brady.

Originally posted by Vegasodds101:

The fact I have to crap on Joe is pissing me off......But I have to to show the select few what literally everyone else knows, and has known for years quite frankly. Brady is GOAT, Joe is clearly #2...#2 all time is pretty damn good.

Personally I'm still of the opinion that Joe's the finest QB (even though Steve young is actually my all time favorite player) I've ever seen play(his 1989 playoff run is the best I've ever seen a QB play). If I had to win one playoff game he's the guy I'd pick. The titles won in an era that I personally just think was stronger especially at the top and the efficiency in which he did it I will always cherish. His playoff stats even with the bad outings against New York still stand really tall.

Montana playoff career stats
62.7%
251 ypg
95.6 rate

These numbers stand up pretty nicely against all other QBs including Brady.

Brady playoff stats
62.7%
268 ypg
89.0 rate

Personally, I like the QB rating number because it is a nice way to compare efficiency when pass attempts are unequal. Just looking at Joe's and Tom's playoff careers, joe attempted about 32 passes a game and Tom is at about 39. Decided to look at some QBs gamelogs and look at the amount of 100+ rated games they've had just to see how it shook out. Usually a QB rating of 100, signifies a pretty good game all things considered. Here's what I found.

Brady has 12 out of his 34(35%)
Rodgers has 7 of 17 (41%)
Young had 5 of 14 (36%)
Brees has 5 of 11 (45%)
Manning had 6 of 27 (22%)
Favre had 10 of 24 (42%)
Montana has 12 of 23 (52%)

Even with the bad games vs NYG and Min, joe was gonna give you a pretty exceptional playoff performance at a rate that exceeds these other legendary signal callers.

Now having said all of that, I can see why and accept why Brady will be listed at the top of the lists going forward. His longevity and stats are incredible and he has earned the accolades he's received.