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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, they once got rid of their really good OL and built it back up. To NY's point, they have a new scheme now that also helps and Baker and the OL are getting more and more comfortable in it and in playing off each other.

That OL last night was without their top guard and RT for most of the game.

They're a run first team much like SF...getting up 21-0 just helps with everything. Play book opens up, run game is flowing, baker can move enough to help everyone etc etc.

They have a good OL spent cash/picks on center/OTs much like we have. Sf needs to get a good center.

It was and they still held the Steelers to their lowest pressure rate of the year but like you said, getting up early certainly helps reduce that number significantly because they can pass less.


It all plays a part

Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.

Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.

A QB with excellent pocket awareness and even better processing can certainly help the OL in pass protection a lot. That said, we're usually one of the highest % teams in play action which means by the time the QB turns around, plants and looks for his first read, 2+ seconds have already gone by which puts additional pressure on the OL and Kyle to scheme that guy open and the QB to process even quicker blind for 2+ seconds.

If he has to get to his second read, he's usually also dodging bodies too with our OL. Tough all around.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Agree. A HaRoman offense can work against a zone blitz type defense. But in general, I think Kyle's offense works really well with a strong run game. If Kyle had a dominant running back that commands respect on the play action passes - that first read should be open 9 out of 10 times.

In addition, if this offense can consistently field three good healthy receivers (any combo of WR's and TE's) the QB should be able to find the open guy 9 out of 10 times in 2.5 seconds. In the case of Man coverage, I'd throw a jump ball to either Aiyuk, Deebo or Kittle any day of the week. In the case any one of the three are doubled, you throw to the opposit receiver away from the double that is in single coverage. etc... In other words, I think the OLine gets a bum rap a lot when it could be the QB just not reading the defense fast enough, or in this years case, as you said, Kyle could never field three good healthy receivers consistently this year.

A QB with excellent pocket awareness and even better processing can certainly help the OL in pass protection a lot. That said, we're usually one of the highest % teams in play action which means by the time the QB turns around, plants and looks for his first read, 2+ seconds have already gone by which puts additional pressure on the OL and Kyle to scheme that guy open and the QB to process even quicker blind for 2+ seconds.

If he has to get to his second read, he's usually also dodging bodies too with our OL. Tough all around.

The basic Kyle QB keeper boot pass is an example of the 2.5 second read. I mean if the defense buys the play fake, it's an almost 90% easy read for the QB to nail the TE or the crossing WR receiver behind him. The more difficult passes are the straight drop back no play fake passes, and again, it's a lot easier for a QB to read the defense when you have three legit WR's/TE/receivers in the pattern. Aiyuk and Deebo along with Kittle are a good foundation for a blitz beating consistent 3rd down converting offense. It's hard to double cover all three receivers defensively the way you can with only two good receivers. Add in Mostert and Wilson as good speed and change of pace backs, and you have the makings of an elite offense. Again, sprinkle in a Bourne or Jordan Reed as additional pass catchers in certain 4 wide or 3 TE formations and I don't see the QB taking sacks and getting hits after throwing. One reason is because he'll have some trusted targets that are open when it comes time to throw. The trick that Kyle has to master is to be able to keep all three receivers healthy for a 19 game season.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.

Was the argument ever that a QB has nothing at all to do with pressure? I'm not sure where these absolute arguments are coming from. It's like saying tires don't impact stopping distance on a car but is anyone arguing fixing/tightening up the brakes isn't an issue or doesn't matter or the brakes are "good enough"? This isn't an either/or argument. Never was. QB play yes needs to improve but there's a mountain of evidence that says the OL isn't good enough EITHER. Fix those damn brakes - and get new tires, but fix the damn brakes.

2019 is evidence of what our current QB can do when the brakes are fixed.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Jan 14, 2021 at 7:14 AM ]
"Red light...red light...GREEN LIGHT!"

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Get a Center like Alex Mack and watch miracles happen!!!
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Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Absolutely. Throw in 2.34 seconds (first read) or run. Basically, the HaRoman Kaepernick offense. That can certainly be effective in reducing hits and sacks.

Was the argument ever that a QB has nothing at all to do with pressure? I'm not sure where these absolute arguments are coming from. It's like saying tires don't impact stopping distance on a car but is anyone arguing fixing/tightening up the brakes isn't an issue or doesn't matter or the brakes are "good enough"? This isn't an either/or argument. Never was. QB play yes needs to improve but there's a mountain of evidence that says the OL isn't good enough EITHER. Fix those damn brakes - and get new tires, but fix the damn brakes.

2019 is evidence of what our current QB can do when the brakes are fixed.

It may not even be the brakes or the tires, but the CPU in the car computer system. Meaning, all these *dang* injuries. Why??? I mean geee-zuz! I've never seen a team as injured as this and still eek out a 6 win season. I mean it should have been a 2-12 season, in my opinion. I think if the team was as healthy as the 2019 campagin, we'd still be talking about the next opponent in the divisional games.

Kyle and John have to figure out how to at lease reduce these injuries big time. Useless to draft a 3rd round talented WR and have him unavailable for two years because of injuries.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NCommand:
"Red light...red light...GREEN LIGHT!"


Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.

Yeah, that's part of the problem too. They couldn't run block consistently either nor protect the ball. That still shouldn't minimize how poor they pass protect either but we already knew that coming into the season that they are a strong run blocking unit but a poor pass protection unit.

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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Goes back to my pet theory, if you cant get a lead or keep a lead (due to the loss of Bosa), you will be passing a lot (instead of running) and your QB will get hammered.

Yeah, that's part of the problem too. They couldn't run block consistently either nor protect the ball. That still shouldn't minimize how poor they pass protect either but we already knew that coming into the season that they are a strong run blocking unit but a poor pass protection unit.

If there is one guy skewing the injury stats, its Richburg. Meaning if he was healthy, that OLine would have better health stats. I think the misfire on Richburg affects pass protection in a couple of ways.
1. Lack of experienced pass protection play caller that calls the right protection scheme vs blitzes, slants, dogs, stunts etc... resulting in missed blocks injuring QB and other skilled players.
2. Benton has to juggle the rookies and second year players into unfamiliar roles they've never played much before, because of a missing center.
3.because the linemen are not playing in their accustomed positions or that journeymen OLinemen are plugged in, you have lax, sloppy, and mistake prone pass protection play.
4. Mistake prone play results in a destroyed morale and confidence of the OLinemen that are healthy, injury to QB, and deterioration in offensive efficiency because now Kyle is playing a backup QB.
5. The good OLine players may try to overcompensate for the bad play, and try to stay in, despite fatigue, and because of that get may more injury prone.

I'm hoping they get a young talented and healthy center - that might go a long way to end a bunch of injuries on the team. Or at least I hope so.
Possible Moves:
  • John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets
49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Possible Moves:
  • John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets
49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

Yeah, he's been a consultant for couple/few years now. Kyle threw him a bone after the coke and hookers incident. I guess he's been sober and worked his way back so this doesn't surprise me.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Possible Moves:
  • John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets
49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

Yeah, he's been a consultant for couple/few years now. Kyle threw him a bone after the coke and hookers incident. I guess he's been sober and worked his way back so this doesn't surprise me.

When Foerster was here in a previous tenure, again he had some terrible PP numbers for his OL. Just please no. Since coming to the 49ers in 2008 during his first stint, his lines even at other stops have just been meh. Yes, run blocking has been incredible, but I think that's the problem; we have an OL coach who seems to know not much else. Interesting coincidence he officially joined the team this year as a co-OL assistant and McG precipitous decline with pass protection.

I remember 2008 and 2009. Foerster was convinced he could make a players out of Chilo Rachal and Adam Snyder. The Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary regimes. OL was so mediocre, 2010 we take 2 OL picks in the first round.

I know Foerster coached in Washington with the Shannys but even there his units were meh. His name isn't ever connected to great lines or teams, nothing pops out on the page when you look at the resume.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Jan 16, 2021 at 10:12 AM ]
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NinerGM:
Possible Moves:
  • John Benton: Offensive line coach —-> Offensive line coach, New York Jets
49ers have something of a logjam in the offensive line coaching room, with Chris Foerster currently the assistant offensive line coach.

https://www.knbr.com/2021/01/15/offseason-shuffle-how-49ers-coaching-staff-front-office-may-look-in-2021/

Chris Foerster again? Oh man that would be terrible for the OL.

I just hope Chris Foerster stays away from the Coke machine.
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