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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
We didn't see that drastic shift in game plans UNTIL all 3 of his QB's were leading the league in QB hits AND couldn't run either. Worst OL in the game at that time.

So Kyle switched to attacking the edges in a different way and, naturally, the run game gets going too and now the < 2 second passing game is complimenting the running game which is really just a different style of running focus (quick screens, orbit and fly sweeps, etc.).

I think it's very fair to question if Kyle modified the game plan because of Jimmy's performance as well esp. when he first did it, the ankle was very ginger still. However, his strength is the intermediate pass and that's where Kyle lives philosophically so if he solely changed because of Jimmy, that'll only be a temporary change. We should see a more traditional approach this week.

For real. I don't know what teams have the CB, S and LB speed, play recognition and strength to shut down the edges enough that Kyle will have to shift on the fly. It's very possible Kyle unlocked a league wide weakness like back in the day when we ran power against a league getting smaller along the DL or added an athletic QB for designed runs as teams weren't prepared to stop it on the edges.

See I disagree, the passing game was basically the same in 2019 as well (hence why we use IAY as the proper measurement). Damn near identical for Jimmy this yr and last yr. Only guy with a lower IAY this yr is Drew Brees and you slobber over all that OL j/k.

IAY basically tells you what kind of passing offense they're running...guys like Brees/Big Ben/Jimmy, it's all about getting the ball out fast. (FWIW Mullens has damn near the same IAY as well).

So in reality the passing scheme has been basically the same now for 2 yrs. Now I look at Kyle's offense with Matt Ryan and his IAY is without question much much better...almost 3 yards better lol. Toss in Football Outsiders grading their pass-protection in the bottom 10 of the league (23rd)...so I then question WHY Kyle isn't dialing up more pass plays that go past 10 yards? IMO it's as simple as our QB just isn't as consistent when throwing deeper downfield...Someone like Matt Ryan is just a better vertical passing QB. Not the end of the world, just our HC calling plays to the strength of his QB. I think we all want our HC to do that.

I agree our OL wasn't PP very well the first couple games, in fact is was turds....the passing offense isn't any different now though. Really the man difference has been QB play, RUNNING the ball well, and I know it's hard to admit BUT the OL is actually pass-protecting a little better than at the beginning of the yr.

In all and this is just me speculating lol, I don't think Kyle's ideal scheme is basically not using a whole area of the football field. I think how that ATL offense was running is closer to how he wants his offense going. BUT of course that's just my two cents

But you're lumping it all together.

Show me the splits between weeks 1-5 (normal) and weeks 6-7 (abnormal).

That's obvious to everyone.

If you think that was mostly due to the QB's limited skill set, trust, ankle, inability to run and/or pass protect, injuries to skill positions, etc. I'm cool with that debate.

Just be genuine in your stance.

I do agree with every other point though.

No doubt the running focus and attacking the edge with quick success greatly minimizes the strain on unit pass protection. Is it really better or hidden better? I think it's fair to argue either way on this one. For me, the timing tips me off to the OL issues more. That's all.

No question this is NOT what Kyle wants for his passing offense. It's nothing more than an extended rushing attack ATM but I expect that to climb up to more normal levels over the coming weeks and especially by year end.

Kyle relies too heavily on that intermediate zone not too.
Originally posted by NCommand:
But you're lumping it all together.

Show me the splits between weeks 1-5 (normal) and weeks 6-7 (abnormal).

That's obvious to everyone.

If you think that was mostly due to the QB's limited skill set, trust, ankle, inability to run and/or pass protect, injuries to skill positions, etc. I'm cool with that debate.

Just be genuine in your stance.

I do agree with every other point though.

No doubt the running focus and attacking the edge with quick success greatly minimizes the strain on unit pass protection. Is it really better or hidden better? I think it's fair to argue either way on this one. For me, the timing tips me off to the OL issues more. That's all.

No question this is NOT what Kyle wants for his passing offense. It's nothing more than an extended rushing attack ATM but I expect that to climb up to more normal levels over the coming weeks and especially by year end.

Kyle relies too heavily on that intermediate zone not too.

I'm using next gen stats same as you....Mullens' IAY is 4th worst in the league they didn't ask him to make a ton of deep drop backs with long progressions. It's not abnormal when you use the appropriate data. It's all there my man

You can use Air Yards to the Sticks (AYTS) as well (here's the definition)

Air Yards to the Sticks (AYTS)Air Yards to the Sticks shows the amount of Air Yards ahead or behind the first down marker on all attempts for a passer. The metric indicates if the passer is attempting his passes past the 1st down marker, or if he is relying on his skill position players to make yards after catch.

Both Jimmy/Mullens are at the top, which mean they're relying on skilled position players to make YAC aka not passing past the 1st down marker at a higher rate. Same is true for Jimmy in 2019. I mean we all already knew this, data backs it up though.

I've been genuine in my stance lol...this passing offense has been the same for almost 2 yrs now, data backs it up. We didn't magically change anything the past two games. The only difference is they ran the ball better/better run-blocking (which is what I said they had to do), JG is simply better than Mullens, and our OL overall played a little better.

This passing offense for the most part is what it is with Jimmy. Yes the OL isn't elite (15th in PP according to FO) neither was ATL's in 2016 (23rd) but they still pushed the ball downfield. QB talent, injuries, and sure PP all play a part. I just think this is the offense Kyle feels conformable calling with our current QB...if they score a ton of pts over the course of the next month, I won't give two s**ts about how Kyle runs his offense, none of us should at that point
Originally posted by NYniner85:
See I disagree, the passing game was basically the same in 2019 as well (hence why we use IAY as the proper measurement). Damn near identical for Jimmy this yr and last yr. Only guy with a lower IAY this yr is Drew Brees and you slobber over all that OL j/k.

IAY basically tells you what kind of passing offense they're running...guys like Brees/Big Ben/Jimmy, it's all about getting the ball out fast. (FWIW Mullens has damn near the same IAY as well).

So in reality the passing scheme has been basically the same now for 2 yrs. Now I look at Kyle's offense with Matt Ryan and his IAY is without question much much better...almost 3 yards better lol. Toss in Football Outsiders grading their pass-protection in the bottom 10 of the league (23rd)...so I then question WHY Kyle isn't dialing up more pass plays that go past 10 yards? IMO it's as simple as our QB just isn't as consistent when throwing deeper downfield...Someone like Matt Ryan is just a better vertical passing QB. Not the end of the world, just our HC calling plays to the strength of his QB. I think we all want our HC to do that.

I agree our OL wasn't PP very well the first couple games, in fact is was turds....the passing offense isn't any different now though. Really the man difference has been QB play, RUNNING the ball well, and I know it's hard to admit BUT the OL is actually pass-protecting a little better than at the beginning of the yr.

In all and this is just me speculating lol, I don't think Kyle's ideal scheme is basically not using a whole area of the football field. I think how that ATL offense was running is closer to how he wants his offense going. BUT of course that's just my two cents

FO is the only place where I could find the #23 ranking and that isn't even close to consensus out there.

6. ATLANTA FALCONS (5)Top overall grade: C Alex Mack, 90.5 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG Andy Levitre, 86.4 (No. 12)

Top run-blocking grade: C Alex Mack, 91.6 (No. 1)

Free-agent acquisition Alex Mack has been a huge boost to this unit, stepping in from day one and returning to his best play, which ranks him among the best centers in the game. Mack made the PFF All-Pro second team with a grade of 90.5, just 0.2 off the highest grade over the season. The Falcons' line was at its best when blocking for the ground game, opening holes for Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to combine for 1,599 rushing yards and 19 touchdowns. As a pass-blocking unit, they have been good, not great, and RG Chris Chester has struggled in that area in particular, surrendering 45 total pressures over 628 pass-blocking snaps. Atlanta was likely hoping to see a little more from LT Jake Matthews, who appeared to plateau after his big improvement a year ago, rather than continue that development.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season

As I've said, if the 49ers PP grade can just get to #16, we see a complete passing offense.

No "elite" designation detected.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 30, 2020 at 7:48 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Um

6. ATLANTA FALCONS (5)Top overall grade: C Alex Mack, 90.5 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG Andy Levitre, 86.4 (No. 12)

Top run-blocking grade: C Alex Mack, 91.6 (No. 1)

Free-agent acquisition Alex Mack has been a huge boost to this unit, stepping in from day one and returning to his best play, which ranks him among the best centers in the game. Mack made the PFF All-Pro second team with a grade of 90.5, just 0.2 off the highest grade over the season. The Falcons' line was at its best when blocking for the ground game, opening holes for Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to combine for 1,599 rushing yards and 19 touchdowns. As a pass-blocking unit, they have been good, not great, and RG Chris Chester has struggled in that area in particular, surrendering 45 total pressures over 628 pass-blocking snaps. Atlanta was likely hoping to see a little more from LT Jake Matthews, who appeared to plateau after his big improvement a year ago, rather than continue that development.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season

As I've said, if the 49ers PP grade can just get to #16, we see a complete passing offense.

No "elite" designation detected.

ummmm

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2016

23rd ranked in pass-protection and 10th in run-blocking.

SF currently is 20th in pass-pro and 14th in run-blocking...improving.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Um

6. ATLANTA FALCONS (5)Top overall grade: C Alex Mack, 90.5 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG Andy Levitre, 86.4 (No. 12)

Top run-blocking grade: C Alex Mack, 91.6 (No. 1)

Free-agent acquisition Alex Mack has been a huge boost to this unit, stepping in from day one and returning to his best play, which ranks him among the best centers in the game. Mack made the PFF All-Pro second team with a grade of 90.5, just 0.2 off the highest grade over the season. The Falcons' line was at its best when blocking for the ground game, opening holes for Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to combine for 1,599 rushing yards and 19 touchdowns. As a pass-blocking unit, they have been good, not great, and RG Chris Chester has struggled in that area in particular, surrendering 45 total pressures over 628 pass-blocking snaps. Atlanta was likely hoping to see a little more from LT Jake Matthews, who appeared to plateau after his big improvement a year ago, rather than continue that development.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season

As I've said, if the 49ers PP grade can just get to #16, we see a complete passing offense.

No "elite" designation detected.

ummmm

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2016

23rd ranked in pass-protection and 10th in run-blocking.

SF currently is 20th in pass-pro and 14th in run-blocking...improving.

Yes that's the ONLY and I mean ONLY stat site that ranks them 23rd. PFF, ESPN, and even smaller outfits have a much higher ranking. There's no consensus here at all.

So it comes down to who you believe and how it fits your narrative I guess - PO or PFF/ESPN/etc.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 30, 2020 at 7:54 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Yes that's the ONLY and I mean ONLY stat site that ranks them 23rd. PFF, ESPN, and even smaller outfits have a much higher ranking. There's no consensus here at all.

So it comes down to who you believe and how it fits your narrative I guess - PO or PFF/ESPN/etc.

overall not just pass-pro dude. Show me JUST pass-pro rankings please. I mean that's what you and NC are always asking for.
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Oct 30, 2020 at 10:33 AM ]
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
But you're lumping it all together.

Show me the splits between weeks 1-5 (normal) and weeks 6-7 (abnormal).

That's obvious to everyone.

If you think that was mostly due to the QB's limited skill set, trust, ankle, inability to run and/or pass protect, injuries to skill positions, etc. I'm cool with that debate.

Just be genuine in your stance.

I do agree with every other point though.

No doubt the running focus and attacking the edge with quick success greatly minimizes the strain on unit pass protection. Is it really better or hidden better? I think it's fair to argue either way on this one. For me, the timing tips me off to the OL issues more. That's all.

No question this is NOT what Kyle wants for his passing offense. It's nothing more than an extended rushing attack ATM but I expect that to climb up to more normal levels over the coming weeks and especially by year end.

Kyle relies too heavily on that intermediate zone not too.

I'm using next gen stats same as you....Mullens' IAY is 4th worst in the league they didn't ask him to make a ton of deep drop backs with long progressions. It's not abnormal when you use the appropriate data. It's all there my man

You can use Air Yards to the Sticks (AYTS) as well (here's the definition)


Air Yards to the Sticks (AYTS)Air Yards to the Sticks shows the amount of Air Yards ahead or behind the first down marker on all attempts for a passer. The metric indicates if the passer is attempting his passes past the 1st down marker, or if he is relying on his skill position players to make yards after catch.

Both Jimmy/Mullens are at the top, which mean they're relying on skilled position players to make YAC aka not passing past the 1st down marker at a higher rate. Same is true for Jimmy in 2019. I mean we all already knew this, data backs it up though.

I've been genuine in my stance lol...this passing offense has been the same for almost 2 yrs now, data backs it up. We didn't magically change anything the past two games. The only difference is they ran the ball better/better run-blocking (which is what I said they had to do), JG is simply better than Mullens, and our OL overall played a little better.

This passing offense for the most part is what it is with Jimmy. Yes the OL isn't elite (15th in PP according to FO) neither was ATL's in 2016 (23rd) but they still pushed the ball downfield. QB talent, injuries, and sure PP all play a part. I just think this is the offense Kyle feels conformable calling with our current QB...if they score a ton of pts over the course of the next month, I won't give two s**ts about how Kyle runs his offense, none of us should at that point

So what are the splits?
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Yes that's the ONLY and I mean ONLY stat site that ranks them 23rd. PFF, ESPN, and even smaller outfits have a much higher ranking. There's no consensus here at all.

So it comes down to who you believe and how it fits your narrative I guess - PO or PFF/ESPN/etc.

overall not just pass-pro dude. Show me JUST pass-pro rankings please.

Ha! The goal posts moved again and no, you don't get to set the criteria for the debate unless you're willing to prove consensus.

Anchoring the run game

Perhaps the best free-agent acquisition of the offseason, center Alex Mack — the second-highest rated center in the league, according to Pro Football Focus — has transformed the Falcons' line, providing a vital boost to the team's pass protection and run-blocking. And his leadership on the team has set the tone for the Falcons' young offensive line, Falcons general manager Thomas Dimitroff told me during an August interview on SiriusXM'S "NFL Inside Read."
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-atlanta-falcons-offense-went-from-good-to-great/

So the more I read about the breakdown for the 2016 Falcons OL, beyond the *only* ranking out there from FO, the more I see that (1) their ranking is s**t and (2) there isn't a consensus on this ranking at all. Further, when we start to break down what players contributed to the PP and run game, Mack was the key. Let's stop talking abstracts NY and talk brass tax here;

Richburg was supposed to be our Mack. It hasn't worked out that way has it? And that has real impact on the scheme, playcalling, and Jimmy's play. I guess I'm just lost at how one can argue not having a key player that was counted on to be a key cog in the offense not being around has no effect on the team's offensive strategy. It's like saying the offense is effectively, effectively the same with or without Kittle.

Players/talent matters.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 30, 2020 at 8:16 AM ]
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Um

6. ATLANTA FALCONS (5)Top overall grade: C Alex Mack, 90.5 (No. 2)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG Andy Levitre, 86.4 (No. 12)

Top run-blocking grade: C Alex Mack, 91.6 (No. 1)

Free-agent acquisition Alex Mack has been a huge boost to this unit, stepping in from day one and returning to his best play, which ranks him among the best centers in the game. Mack made the PFF All-Pro second team with a grade of 90.5, just 0.2 off the highest grade over the season. The Falcons' line was at its best when blocking for the ground game, opening holes for Devonta Freeman and Tevin Coleman to combine for 1,599 rushing yards and 19 touchdowns. As a pass-blocking unit, they have been good, not great, and RG Chris Chester has struggled in that area in particular, surrendering 45 total pressures over 628 pass-blocking snaps. Atlanta was likely hoping to see a little more from LT Jake Matthews, who appeared to plateau after his big improvement a year ago, rather than continue that development.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season

As I've said, if the 49ers PP grade can just get to #16, we see a complete passing offense.

No "elite" designation detected.

ummmm

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2016

23rd ranked in pass-protection and 10th in run-blocking.

SF currently is 20th in pass-pro and 14th in run-blocking...improving.

was #8 and #15 in 2019, tied for 12th in sacks (lower tier in QB hits as well) given up and 6.69% adjusted sack rate. I don't recall seeing the passing game being fully opened up then, do you? Bottom lime is the OL, these last 2 games, is playing significantly better in PP and RB than the 1st 5. No excuses need to be made.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Ultimately, with you last remaining few in here, this seems to be foundation of those still trying to justify a good enough pass protection unit. I get it. It's hard to look past the QB. But we'll try and save those conversations for the Garoppolo thread.

It's certainly hard to look past the qb when he has the protection and he misses the open dude yes. My inclination is not to blame all of that on the pass protection.
[ Edited by 9ers4eva on Oct 30, 2020 at 10:00 AM ]

Originally posted by NCommand:
So what are the splits?

Splits for what? I'm given you the next gen stat the same place where you keep referring to TT and CAY...where's the "splits" on those stats?

I've given you the data from Mullens this yr with his starts (which wasn't two games ago) and Jimmy's for this yr and last yr...which clearly shows there's been no difference in the passing offense as a whole. It's been the same, get the ball out quickly into our pass catchers hands.

So saying Kyle has altered his scheme these past two games is simply not true.

Like I said the only difference has been that Jimmy is better than Mullens and the OL has improved in both run-blocking and pass-pro. Hopefully it continues
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Oct 30, 2020 at 10:34 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Ha! The goal posts moved again and no, you don't get to set the criteria for the debate unless you're willing to prove consensus.

Anchoring the run game

Perhaps the best free-agent acquisition of the offseason, center Alex Mack — the second-highest rated center in the league, according to Pro Football Focus — has transformed the Falcons' line, providing a vital boost to the team's pass protection and run-blocking. And his leadership on the team has set the tone for the Falcons' young offensive line, Falcons general manager Thomas Dimitroff told me during an August interview on SiriusXM'S "NFL Inside Read."
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-atlanta-falcons-offense-went-from-good-to-great/

So the more I read about the breakdown for the 2016 Falcons OL, beyond the *only* ranking out there from FO, the more I see that (1) their ranking is s**t and (2) there isn't a consensus on this ranking at all. Further, when we start to break down what players contributed to the PP and run game, Mack was the key. Let's stop talking abstracts NY and talk brass tax here;

Richburg was supposed to be our Mack. It hasn't worked out that way has it? And that has real impact on the scheme, playcalling, and Jimmy's play. I guess I'm just lost at how one can argue not having a key player that was counted on to be a key cog in the offense not being around has no effect on the team's offensive strategy. It's like saying the offense is effectively, effectively the same with or without Kittle.

Players/talent matters.

What in the world are you talking about with moving goalposts?

You and NC get all upset when someone posts something about our OL in a positive light and uses PFF. "McG is a top 10 OL yeah well that's because of run-blocking" lol no s**t.

So let's use something like football outsiders that actually breaks down a teams rankings between run blocking and pass-pro. ATL was 10th in RB and 23rd in pass-blocking in 2016. That's not make believe, it's a fact. Football outsiders doesn't give a s**t what you or I think, they just post the results.

No where in that article does it say what their rankings where as a pass-blocking OL unit. Great they got alex Mack. SF got Trent f**king williams lol. Who cares... I'm talking as a UNIT. ATL was much better at run-blocking then pass-protection YET were able to throw the ball. Almost like the QB matters a little.

That random article written by FiveThirtyEight (who) hold no real insight to what I'm even talking about...I'm talking about actual data. Something football outsiders is regarded as one of the best.

Until you show me some actual data by a well-known analytical reference saying that 2016 ATL OL was a top end pass-protecting unit (give me a ranking) There isn't a case to be had... end of the day that's what they were bottom end in pass-pro great in run-blocking. They were able to put up a elite passing offense regardless. Kyle's scheme WILL do that with the right QB
[ Edited by NYniner85 on Oct 30, 2020 at 10:31 AM ]
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
was #8 and #15 in 2019, tied for 12th in sacks (lower tier in QB hits as well) given up and 6.69% adjusted sack rate. I don't recall seeing the passing game being fully opened up then, do you? Bottom lime is the OL, these last 2 games, is playing significantly better in PP and RB than the 1st 5. No excuses need to be made.

Because it works in tandem. No o line does well with extended 3rd and longs. But somehow only the 9ers line needs the expectation of being "championship level" when the run blocking sucks. That's not realistic.

Command is trying to change your my and NY stance of this o line being good enough to win a SB when we were basing it on our belief the run game would dominate to help make the pass game work. I think you would agree this o line has no shot if they struggle run blocking like they did. I know NY does. I do. I don't see that as some out there belief.

Every Jimmy miss being residual fault of the o line however
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
was #8 and #15 in 2019, tied for 12th in sacks (lower tier in QB hits as well) given up and 6.69% adjusted sack rate. I don't recall seeing the passing game being fully opened up then, do you? Bottom lime is the OL, these last 2 games, is playing significantly better in PP and RB than the 1st 5. No excuses need to be made.

Nope, the passing offense has been the same. Imo the passing offense kyle has been scheming up is simply what works for his QB. Would it change a little with a different QB with a different skill set...I would say yes.
Originally posted by 9ers4eva:
Because it works in tandem. No o line does well with extended 3rd and longs. But somehow only the 9ers line needs the expectation of being "championship level" when the run blocking sucks. That's not realistic.

Command is trying to change your my and NY stance of this o line being good enough to win a SB when we were basing it on our belief the run game would dominate to help make the pass game work. I think you would agree this o line has no shot if they struggle run blocking like they did. I know NY does. I do. I don't see that as some out there belief.

Every Jimmy miss being residual fault of the o line however

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