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Originally posted by stefano89:
Am I the only one freaked out that tom Compton is possibly going to be the starting RG on our team. How did we get to that point. How can we accept a downgrade at our teams weakest point, OL, an expect our offense to function. All these weapons won't mean s**t if guys are running free up the middle like they did a lot last season.

Scary.

I don't seee Brunskill as a downgrade on Person. Compton will be depth.
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Originally posted by stefano89:
Am I the only one freaked out that tom Compton is possibly going to be the starting RG on our team. How did we get to that point. How can we accept a downgrade at our teams weakest point, OL, an expect our offense to function. All these weapons won't mean s**t if guys are running free up the middle like they did a lot last season.

Scary.

The nice thing about Kyle's offense is that it really isn't a straight drop back kind of offense. It's more of a side to side zone run offense complimented by a bootleg play fake kind of pass offense (in general). With regards to Chris JOnes, I think Kyle got away from the zone run a bit in the 4rth qtr of the super bowl game. If you review the Vikings and Green Bay game, we didn't have any real issues of folks running up the middle and clocking our QB in those two games. Point I'm trying to make is Kyle's offense is more agile kind of offense versus a power/gap based offense. When Jimmy is dropping back to pass, a lot of times it's based off a play fake and I think agility vs strength is what is needed in terms of pass protection for those kinds of plays. I think the OLinemen Kyle has brought in are better matched up with regards to pass offense than the first two seasons under Kyle. As an example, how strong do you have to be to block for a screen pass? Not really, you do have to be athletic *enough* to prevent the DLinemen from getting back on track after they've been wrong footed. Same, I think with Kyle's passing game, Kyle doesn't need the OLinemen to block for 4 seconds, only about 2.5-ish seconds for most of his pass plays.

Again, if you go back to the Chris Jones' knockdown of Jimmy's pass in the fourth QTR, that was a blitz. *A run* or possibly a screen would have been a better play call in that situation. It might have been better for Jimmy to just pull the ball down and run sideways to eat up some time and gain a yard or two instead of losing that 3rd down without eating up any time. Just some thoughts regarding our pass protection issues.
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
I'm looking at the 2017-2020 drafts, Interior Offensive Lineman taken in the first 3 rounds.

2017:

Forrest Lamp 38th to the Chargers
Ethan Pocic 58th to the Seahawks
Dion Dawkins 63rd to the Bills (Just signed a $60M extension with Buffalo)
Taylor Moton 64th to the Panthers
Pat Elflein 70th to the Vikings
Dan Feeney 71st to the Chargers

We took Reuben Foster 31st, so yeah we could have went with Lamp, but no one saw Foster ending up being an idiot off the field, everyone agreed it was a great pick at time

We had no 2nd rd pick due to the trade up for Foster

Dawkins and Moton were taken a few picks before we took Witherspoon at 66th overall, and Elflein is horrible at pass protection, he may not even make the Vikings roster.

2018:

Quenton Nelson 6th to the Colts
Frank Ragnow 20th to the Lions
Billy Price 21st to the Bengals
Braden Smith 37th to the Colts
James Daniels 39th to the Bears
Connor Williams 50th to the Cowboys
Mason Cole 97th to the Cardinals

Nelson was taken before us, but we got Mike McGlinchey, so that was a solid pick.

Pettis was taken at 44, not the best pick, but Ragnow, Price, Smith, and Daniels were gone by then. We could have taken Williams.

We took Fred Warner at 70, so that was a great pick, and we took Tarvaius Moore 2 picks before Mason Cole, and another good pick IMO.

2019:

Chris Lindstrom 14th to the Falcons
Garrett Bradbury 18th to the Vikings
Elgton Jenkins 44th to the Packers
Erik McCoy 48th to the Saints
Michael Deiter 78th to the Dolphins
Nate Davis 82nd to the Titans
Connor McGovern 90th to the Cowboys

This is easy, Bosa went 2nd to us, Deebo went 36th to us, both were the right picks, no guarantee Deebo would have lasted longer.

Jalen Hurd went 67th, so Lindstrom, Bradbury were 1st rd picks, we had no shot at either of them. Jenkins, McCoy were gone by 67. Not sure how good Deiter, Davis or McGovern are. The team, and fans seem high on Hurd.

2020:

Cesar Ruiz 24th to the Saints
Damien Lewis 69th to the Seahawks
Jonah Jackson 75th to the Lions
Matt Hennessy 78th to the Falcons
Lloyd Cushenberry 83rd to the Broncos
Tyre Phillips 106th to the Ravens

Despite what people wanted/thought, Kinlaw was the right pick at 14, taken a RT to play RG or LT wouldn't have made sense at 13 had we not traded back with the Bucs 1 spot.

We had no 2nd or 3rd rd picks so none of the rest were in range.

Honestly the only year that would have made sense was 2018 taking Connor Williams over Pettis, other than that, I wouldn't change the other picks.

Yeah overall IOL has been junk the past couple yrs. Liked Forest Lamp but he hasn't been healthy his whole career so far. I had Braden Smith in a lot of my mocks and he's turned into a damn good RT.

Next yr is looking promising at IOL. If Brunskill plays well then we can cross RG off the list. I'm all for giving Tomlinson an early extension next yr to drop the cap a little in the short term.

I don't see how SF doesn't resign Trent, unless if he plays like trash which I doubt. Richburg is the wild card. Healthy he's a top 10 pass-blocking center. Needs to have a full season of being healthy or they might have to move on.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
I'm looking at the 2017-2020 drafts, Interior Offensive Lineman taken in the first 3 rounds.

2017:

Forrest Lamp 38th to the Chargers
Ethan Pocic 58th to the Seahawks
Dion Dawkins 63rd to the Bills (Just signed a $60M extension with Buffalo)
Taylor Moton 64th to the Panthers
Pat Elflein 70th to the Vikings
Dan Feeney 71st to the Chargers

We took Reuben Foster 31st, so yeah we could have went with Lamp, but no one saw Foster ending up being an idiot off the field, everyone agreed it was a great pick at time

We had no 2nd rd pick due to the trade up for Foster

Dawkins and Moton were taken a few picks before we took Witherspoon at 66th overall, and Elflein is horrible at pass protection, he may not even make the Vikings roster.

2018:

Quenton Nelson 6th to the Colts
Frank Ragnow 20th to the Lions
Billy Price 21st to the Bengals
Braden Smith 37th to the Colts
James Daniels 39th to the Bears
Connor Williams 50th to the Cowboys
Mason Cole 97th to the Cardinals

Nelson was taken before us, but we got Mike McGlinchey, so that was a solid pick.

Pettis was taken at 44, not the best pick, but Ragnow, Price, Smith, and Daniels were gone by then. We could have taken Williams.

We took Fred Warner at 70, so that was a great pick, and we took Tarvaius Moore 2 picks before Mason Cole, and another good pick IMO.

2019:

Chris Lindstrom 14th to the Falcons
Garrett Bradbury 18th to the Vikings
Elgton Jenkins 44th to the Packers
Erik McCoy 48th to the Saints
Michael Deiter 78th to the Dolphins
Nate Davis 82nd to the Titans
Connor McGovern 90th to the Cowboys

This is easy, Bosa went 2nd to us, Deebo went 36th to us, both were the right picks, no guarantee Deebo would have lasted longer.

Jalen Hurd went 67th, so Lindstrom, Bradbury were 1st rd picks, we had no shot at either of them. Jenkins, McCoy were gone by 67. Not sure how good Deiter, Davis or McGovern are. The team, and fans seem high on Hurd.

2020:

Cesar Ruiz 24th to the Saints
Damien Lewis 69th to the Seahawks
Jonah Jackson 75th to the Lions
Matt Hennessy 78th to the Falcons
Lloyd Cushenberry 83rd to the Broncos
Tyre Phillips 106th to the Ravens

Despite what people wanted/thought, Kinlaw was the right pick at 14, taken a RT to play RG or LT wouldn't have made sense at 13 had we not traded back with the Bucs 1 spot.

We had no 2nd or 3rd rd picks so none of the rest were in range.

Honestly the only year that would have made sense was 2018 taking Connor Williams over Pettis, other than that, I wouldn't change the other picks.

Yeah overall IOL has been junk the past couple yrs. Liked Forest Lamp but he hasn't been healthy his whole career so far. I had Braden Smith in a lot of my mocks and he's turned into a damn good RT.

Next yr is looking promising at IOL. If Brunskill plays well then we can cross RG off the list. I'm all for giving Tomlinson an early extension next yr to drop the cap a little in the short term.

I don't see how SF doesn't resign Trent, unless if he plays like trash which I doubt. Richburg is the wild card. Healthy he's a top 10 pass-blocking center. Needs to have a full season of being healthy or they might have to move on.

Agreed overall. That's a pretty standard hit rate...not sure in comparison to other positions during that time. Missing hurts in the first 3 rounds no matter what like with Joshua Garnett. I would have extended IOL to T's because of the athleticism so that adds more to the pool and probability but OL are just tough as so much depends on the scheme they go to, fit, players next to them, time needed to develop, etc.

And who knows how much Kyle really looks at the position. He seemed to spend far more time evaluating a Punter. LOL
Trent Williams not only plays like a madman he drives like one too!
Originally posted by Howlett49:
Trent Williams not only plays like a madman he drives like one too!

Take it easy big fella. We need you
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed overall. That's a pretty standard hit rate...not sure in comparison to other positions during that time. Missing hurts in the first 3 rounds no matter what like with Joshua Garnett. I would have extended IOL to T's because of the athleticism so that adds more to the pool and probability but OL are just tough as so much depends on the scheme they go to, fit, players next to them, time needed to develop, etc.

And who knows how much Kyle really looks at the position. He seemed to spend far more time evaluating a Punter. LOL

Chris Foster is now assistant OL coach, I'm thinking he's helped in scouting these past two years. That's why the line may have gotten better. I think as long as you have Benton and Kyle as coaches, that line will always be a strong part of the team.

With regards to the interior pass protections, it makes it easier to evaluate talent when you have the DLine that we have. In practice and in free agent workouts, you can probably see immediately who can pass protect and who can't. Thereby you can go though a whole bunch of undrafted OLinemen and free agents trying them out, without signing them, until you hit a diamond in the rough, and stash him on the practice squad and develop him.
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Originally posted by Howlett49:
Originally posted by Howlett49:
Trent Williams not only plays like a madman he drives like one too!

Take it easy big fella. We need you

yeah, I cringed when I saw that. Its definitely something Praag will look at when contract time comes up.
Originally posted by Giedi:
The nice thing about Kyle's offense is that it really isn't a straight drop back kind of offense. It's more of a side to side zone run offense complimented by a bootleg play fake kind of pass offense (in general). With regards to Chris JOnes, I think Kyle got away from the zone run a bit in the 4rth qtr of the super bowl game. If you review the Vikings and Green Bay game, we didn't have any real issues of folks running up the middle and clocking our QB in those two games. Point I'm trying to make is Kyle's offense is more agile kind of offense versus a power/gap based offense. When Jimmy is dropping back to pass, a lot of times it's based off a play fake and I think agility vs strength is what is needed in terms of pass protection for those kinds of plays. I think the OLinemen Kyle has brought in are better matched up with regards to pass offense than the first two seasons under Kyle. As an example, how strong do you have to be to block for a screen pass? Not really, you do have to be athletic *enough* to prevent the DLinemen from getting back on track after they've been wrong footed. Same, I think with Kyle's passing game, Kyle doesn't need the OLinemen to block for 4 seconds, only about 2.5-ish seconds for most of his pass plays.

Again, if you go back to the Chris Jones' knockdown of Jimmy's pass in the fourth QTR, that was a blitz. *A run* or possibly a screen would have been a better play call in that situation. It might have been better for Jimmy to just pull the ball down and run sideways to eat up some time and gain a yard or two instead of losing that 3rd down without eating up any time. Just some thoughts regarding our pass protection issues.

Your correct with Kyle's offense is screen passes/ quick slant and stuff like that. However any time during the year if is was 3rd and 15 the defense knew it was going to be a pass and chances are the interior o line could not stop much of the rush. They where not that good. That's what happen in the 4th qt. It's not all the O line fault. The defense gave up a bunch of point really fast they got behind and the offense had to pass the ball. Last year in that situation the O line could not hold on long enough to get to a second or third read. They need 4 sec and got 2 sec. Maybe if Brunskill starts he can help fix this? Maybe McKivitz plays and is up to the job. I hope they can fix the pass pro!!!! There's going to be in 3rd and 15ish at some point and if they can't slow down the rush they'er right back where they where last year. Which still got them to the supper bowl.
Originally posted by dlance:
Your correct with Kyle's offense is screen passes/ quick slant and stuff like that. However any time during the year if is was 3rd and 15 the defense knew it was going to be a pass and chances are the interior o line could not stop much of the rush. They where not that good. That's what happen in the 4th qt. It's not all the O line fault. The defense gave up a bunch of point really fast they got behind and the offense had to pass the ball. Last year in that situation the O line could not hold on long enough to get to a second or third read. They need 4 sec and got 2 sec. Maybe if Brunskill starts he can help fix this? Maybe McKivitz plays and is up to the job. I hope they can fix the pass pro!!!! There's going to be in 3rd and 15ish at some point and if they can't slow down the rush they'er right back where they where last year. Which still got them to the supper bowl.

Peach.

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Originally posted by dlance:
Originally posted by Giedi:
The nice thing about Kyle's offense is that it really isn't a straight drop back kind of offense. It's more of a side to side zone run offense complimented by a bootleg play fake kind of pass offense (in general). With regards to Chris JOnes, I think Kyle got away from the zone run a bit in the 4rth qtr of the super bowl game. If you review the Vikings and Green Bay game, we didn't have any real issues of folks running up the middle and clocking our QB in those two games. Point I'm trying to make is Kyle's offense is more agile kind of offense versus a power/gap based offense. When Jimmy is dropping back to pass, a lot of times it's based off a play fake and I think agility vs strength is what is needed in terms of pass protection for those kinds of plays. I think the OLinemen Kyle has brought in are better matched up with regards to pass offense than the first two seasons under Kyle. As an example, how strong do you have to be to block for a screen pass? Not really, you do have to be athletic *enough* to prevent the DLinemen from getting back on track after they've been wrong footed. Same, I think with Kyle's passing game, Kyle doesn't need the OLinemen to block for 4 seconds, only about 2.5-ish seconds for most of his pass plays.

Again, if you go back to the Chris Jones' knockdown of Jimmy's pass in the fourth QTR, that was a blitz. *A run* or possibly a screen would have been a better play call in that situation. It might have been better for Jimmy to just pull the ball down and run sideways to eat up some time and gain a yard or two instead of losing that 3rd down without eating up any time. Just some thoughts regarding our pass protection issues.

Your correct with Kyle's offense is screen passes/ quick slant and stuff like that. However any time during the year if is was 3rd and 15 the defense knew it was going to be a pass and chances are the interior o line could not stop much of the rush. They where not that good. That's what happen in the 4th qt. It's not all the O line fault. The defense gave up a bunch of point really fast they got behind and the offense had to pass the ball. Last year in that situation the O line could not hold on long enough to get to a second or third read. They need 4 sec and got 2 sec. Maybe if Brunskill starts he can help fix this? Maybe McKivitz plays and is up to the job. I hope they can fix the pass pro!!!! There's going to be in 3rd and 15ish at some point and if they can't slow down the rush they'er right back where they where last year. Which still got them to the supper bowl.

Correct, the defense allowed a bunch of points in the 4th QRT. With respect to 3rd and 15, no matter *what play* is called, the defense is going to pass rush. That's a no brainer. In that case, take a deep shot, gamble on a screen, or stay safe and call a run. The odds of converting 3rd and 15 is low, so why not design an offense that very rarely *gets* into those situations.

Point I'm making is because we have such a great defense, that 3rd down pass knockdown should not have lost us the game if the defense would have held up.

Basically with the kind of defense we have, you don't want to design an offense for 3rd and 15, you want to design an offense that can be a great ball control offense and ideally is also explosive. Drafting for 3rd and 15, and designing an offense for 3rd and 15, and game planning for 3rd and 15 is stupid, in my opinion, with the kind of defense we have.
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Peach.

I prefer Apples.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Correct, the defense allowed a bunch of points in the 4th QRT. With respect to 3rd and 15, no matter *what play* is called, the defense is going to pass rush. That's a no brainer. In that case, take a deep shot, gamble on a screen, or stay safe and call a run. The odds of converting 3rd and 15 is low, so why not design an offense that very rarely *gets* into those situations.

Point I'm making is because we have such a great defense, that 3rd down pass knockdown should not have lost us the game if the defense would have held up.

Basically with the kind of defense we have, you don't want to design an offense for 3rd and 15, you want to design an offense that can be a great ball control offense and ideally is also explosive. Drafting for 3rd and 15, and designing an offense for 3rd and 15, and game planning for 3rd and 15 is stupid, in my opinion, with the kind of defense we have.

I'm not saying design an offense for 3rd and 15. But KC o line stopped the one of the best D line in the game on 3rd and 15 and they made a play. New England find a way to get 3rd and 10 when they need it. It was Tom Brady I know. Seattle o line struggle with 3rd and long there not that good ether but Russel Wilson moves better the Jimmy G and he find a way. The way your describing it, if there 3rd and 10 or 15 and chances are low just chuck it deep which last year he didn't have time to throw it deep, or give up with a run or screen. Hell why not punt on 3rd down they don't need to try to get 3rd and 15 the 10 time during the year that their in that situation.
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Originally posted by dlance:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Correct, the defense allowed a bunch of points in the 4th QRT. With respect to 3rd and 15, no matter *what play* is called, the defense is going to pass rush. That's a no brainer. In that case, take a deep shot, gamble on a screen, or stay safe and call a run. The odds of converting 3rd and 15 is low, so why not design an offense that very rarely *gets* into those situations.

Point I'm making is because we have such a great defense, that 3rd down pass knockdown should not have lost us the game if the defense would have held up.

Basically with the kind of defense we have, you don't want to design an offense for 3rd and 15, you want to design an offense that can be a great ball control offense and ideally is also explosive. Drafting for 3rd and 15, and designing an offense for 3rd and 15, and game planning for 3rd and 15 is stupid, in my opinion, with the kind of defense we have.

I'm not saying design an offense for 3rd and 15. But KC o line stopped the one of the best D line in the game on 3rd and 15 and they made a play. New England find a way to get 3rd and 10 when they need it. It was Tom Brady I know. Seattle o line struggle with 3rd and long there not that good ether but Russel Wilson moves better the Jimmy G and he find a way. The way your describing it, if there 3rd and 10 or 15 and chances are low just chuck it deep which last year he didn't have time to throw it deep, or give up with a run or screen. Hell why not punt on 3rd down they don't need to try to get 3rd and 15 the 10 time during the year that their in that situation.

How many Super Bowls appearances does Andy Reid have? The point im trying to make is that the Kyle Shanahan system has gotten to the super bowl twice (Atlanta and last year) Fat Andy's system has resulted in twice in twenty years.
Originally posted by Giedi:
How many Super Bowls appearances does Andy Reid have? The point im trying to make is that the Kyle Shanahan system has gotten to the super bowl twice (Atlanta and last year) Fat Andy's system has resulted in twice in twenty years.

I have no idea what Andy Read has to do with why the o line can't or doesn't block very well on 3rd and long? But, his team did block ok on third and long. Well coaches that have made the Super Bowl and not changed a thing one that comes to mind is Marv Levy 4 strait didn't change a thing, did the same thing every year and lost them all. I'm not saying that is what is going to happen to the 49er. I sure hope that's not what happens. Its not easy to get the the Super Bowl.
[ Edited by dlance on Aug 15, 2020 at 3:18 PM ]
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