49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:

So much movement...you can see why our OL drop like flies annually.

Ok. Fair enough. Here's a better example. Took me 2 plays into the game to find this. This is essentially what's happening. In RSWR, he's probably getting a 'win' here, but you can see it's not effective. pic.twitter.com/ytPtppnFG4

— Brian Burke (@bburkeESPN) September 8, 2020

Dude enough my god...so many teams run zone blocking schemes with a f**k ton of movement.

that looked like a fake jet sweep, and Breida was to take it inside anyway. Agree there is a ton of movement pre and post snap, they all have to get their cardios up for all that movement. Looking forward to see how Garland does against a rebuilt AZ DLine.

NY is only noting zone blocking but Kyle has added all this as well. When all this is on the plate of OL with all this movement, IMHO, it increases the likelihood of injury. That's my theory for why every single year under Kyle's system, they've had to use all of their OL just to get through 16 games (including PS players...brought Reynolds up last year).

Kyle called it all last year in the running game: Gap and Pulls, Power O, Counter, Iso, Zone (Belly, Tight, Inside, Mid, Outside, Wide zone), Book and Bible, Zone Counter, Pin and Pull, Fold, Trap and Wham, Draw, Jet Sweep, RPO, Speed Option, Veer, etc.

Unless there's another theory? Undersized? Not talented? Odd builds?

Of the 8 this year, how many do you think we'll use?

Those I think factor in. I think the line movement- which is a sprint to the sidelines while contesting and reach blocking a DLineman adds to fatigue, which influences injury. There is studies that corellate fatigue with injury. Also being an undersized OLineman against possibly bigger DLinemen can be added too. Usually a bigger guy will get less injured than a smaller guy because the bigger guy can deal with heavier loads and stresses, because of bigger bones and tendons. Also mental a component, such as worrying about injuries tend to make those kinds of injuries happen more often.

I no longer view injuries in a negative light though. I think its an opportunity for the coaching staff to find those depth players that can potentially become starters ar some point.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'll treat anyone's theory with absolutely no factual evidence exactly the same...you have my word

I also have no problem being wrong about something so long a you have substantial evidence to collaborate such a claim.

I hate to be the Science Nerd here,...but theories and facts will never be the same and have little correlation.

Theories are there to explain past observations/facts. He's already covered the theory criteria, and it's really no biggie. He has his, you have yours.

The factual part you're referring to correlates to laws, principles, et. al.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'll treat anyone's theory with absolutely no factual evidence exactly the same...you have my word

I also have no problem being wrong about something so long a you have substantial evidence to collaborate such a claim.

I hate to be the Science Nerd here,...but theories and facts will never be the same and have little correlation.

Theories are there to explain past observations/facts. He's already covered the theory criteria, and it's really no biggie. He has his, you have yours.

The factual part you're referring to correlates to laws, principles, et. al.

I understand what a theory is...maybe I should have worded it differently.

If NC has a "theory" that a blocking scheme is what leads to more injuries that's all fine and dandy...he's been touting off about this for a while now...at this point what's the point in constantly bringing it up, if you're not gonna back it up with actual facts it's really just white noise. I know it helps his narrative sooo there's that lol.

I mean I can have a "theory" that we never landed on the moon, I'd imagine people would like some factual evidence to back up that claim or we can just shove it into the "conspiracy theory" box lol.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Remember, I didn't state a conclusion (you said I did). League wide or internal. I simply noted an evidence-based trend and a reasonable theory on why that evidence exists. You're theory (or non theory) is as good as mine at this point. But the "evidence" is still 4, going on 5 years now.

If you're looking for an empirical study on the correlation between scheme and injuries, good luck with that. That doesn't mean one doesn't exist though.

Therefore, I turn in-house to point it out to you today. At what point, even if you can't specifically pinpoint it, do you finally entertain there might be an in-house correlation? How many years?

Like the correlation between turnovers and winning % or the line I found between AGL injuries and playoff odds, these things are real. And like my theory, it's grounded in common sense. Is there another in Kyle's scheme demands and injuries? If not, probability says this team will regress back to the mean.

...that hasn't happened though for overall team injuries and OL. So...

Well of course you didn't state it as a conclusion...there's no hard evidence lol. You sure have brought it up a ton and I know how it helps your narrative with OL at this point it's more white noise than anything.

What evidence-based trend? Our OLs were getting hurt under Harbs scheme as well. Seattle's OL is a straight up gap/power scheme and they're always hurt. The fact that MOST teams in the NFL run both zone-blocking and gap-blocking concepts makes it kinda silly overall.

Sorry I would like some sort of evidence or real correlation with what you're stating, instead of throwing s**t against the wall.

I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Originally posted by thl408:

I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

But they aren't all in the trenches and the trenches are stretched to 5-10 yards down field in our scheme. Staley got leg whipped blocking 10 yards down field outside the pocket. Richburg also got hurt trying to anchor an ISO (not a stretch run).

I've also said numerous times I'm more skeptical that it's the variant demands on the OL both physically and mentally that may be a correlation. Not just OZ. It's OZ, then IZ, then power, then veer, then PP, etc. The more volume and bodies required, the better chance of injury. Maybe.

And I'm not sure what narrative you think I have here. If we drafted Cesar Ruiz, I'd fully expect him to go down too after these 5 years of evidence. They only narrative I have would be to carry 10 vs. 8 for this very fact.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:
I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

But they aren't all in the trenches and the trenches are stretched to 5-10 yards down field. Staley got leg whipped blocking 10 yards down field outside the pocket. Richburg also hot hurt trying to anchor (not a stretch run) in pass protection.

And I'm not sure what narrative you think I have here. If we drafted Cesar Ruiz, I fully expect him to go down too after these 5 years of evidence. They only narrative I have would be to carry 10 vs. 8 for this very fact.

Richburg got injured on a run play. Just sayin.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

But they aren't all in the trenches and the trenches are stretched to 5-10 yards down field. Staley got leg whipped blocking 10 yards down field outside the pocket. Richburg also hot hurt trying to anchor (not a stretch run) in pass protection.

And I'm not sure what narrative you think I have here. If we drafted Cesar Ruiz, I fully expect him to go down too after these 5 years of evidence. They only narrative I have would be to carry 10 vs. 8 for this very fact.

Richburg got injured on a run play. Just sayin.

Which time? Which year? LOL

PS: I get you were talking about the most recent one; misremembered.

Originally posted by random49er:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'll treat anyone's theory with absolutely no factual evidence exactly the same...you have my word

I also have no problem being wrong about something so long a you have substantial evidence to collaborate such a claim.

I hate to be the Science Nerd here,...but theories and facts will never be the same and have little correlation.

Theories are there to explain past observations/facts. He's already covered the theory criteria, and it's really no biggie. He has his, you have yours.

The factual part you're referring to correlates to laws, principles, et. al.

Right? NY85 is out here looking for 100% causation when even a correlation itself is linking likelihood of a connection based around probability. And the degree of that probability.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:
I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

But they aren't all in the trenches and the trenches are stretched to 5-10 yards down field. Staley got leg whipped blocking 10 yards down field outside the pocket. Richburg also hot hurt trying to anchor (not a stretch run) in pass protection.

And I'm not sure what narrative you think I have here. If we drafted Cesar Ruiz, I fully expect him to go down too after these 5 years of evidence. They only narrative I have would be to carry 10 vs. 8 for this very fact.

Richburg got injured on a run play. Just sayin.

Which time? Which year? LOL

Good point, I was talking 2019.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:
I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Yeah for me there are entirely too many variables to have that be a real meaningful reason for OL injuries.

It's the trenches and that's where a ton of injuries take place.

But they aren't all in the trenches and the trenches are stretched to 5-10 yards down field. Staley got leg whipped blocking 10 yards down field outside the pocket. Richburg also hot hurt trying to anchor (not a stretch run) in pass protection.

And I'm not sure what narrative you think I have here. If we drafted Cesar Ruiz, I fully expect him to go down too after these 5 years of evidence. They only narrative I have would be to carry 10 vs. 8 for this very fact.

Richburg got injured on a run play. Just sayin.

Joes block was also not 10;yards down field, it was about 3 yards

Originally posted by thl408:

I can't think of a correlation between injuries and zone blocking, but it's an interesting hypothesis. ATL in their super bowl year ran lots of zone and one of the reasons their offense was successful is because they didn't suffer injuries to their starting 5 OL. Perhaps they were an outlier? Maybe all the movement blocks in a zone scheme gets players legs tangled up? Richburg got his legs tangled up with Person when he suffered his injury last year but it was on a Duo or Iso run play (straight ahead blocking).

Goes for the Rams too when tHey went to the SB a couple years ago.
There entire O-Line stayed together and virtually injury free all year with the same scheme.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Those I think factor in. I think the line movement- which is a sprint to the sidelines while contesting and reach blocking a DLineman adds to fatigue, which influences injury. There is studies that corellate fatigue with injury. Also being an undersized OLineman against possibly bigger DLinemen can be added too. Usually a bigger guy will get less injured than a smaller guy because the bigger guy can deal with heavier loads and stresses, because of bigger bones and tendons. Also mental a component, such as worrying about injuries tend to make those kinds of injuries happen more often.

I no longer view injuries in a negative light though. I think its an opportunity for the coaching staff to find those depth players that can potentially become starters ar some point.

Uh oh, here comes the Theory Police. Haha.

I definitely can buy that as a factor. It's not just zone blocking for 16 games (need great conditioning) but you touched on another possible factor: fatigue. The #2 scoring offense is constantly on the field...scoring. Fatigue. The defense keeps giving you the ball back. Long sustained drives. The more success, perhaps the more fatigue, the higher probability of injury by just being on the field a lot doing a lot.

Extra TE's and FB's and WR's thrown in there. Team blocking esp. for OZ.

Variant schemes assignments and perhaps mixed assignments within a play call (some zone blocking while others power or gap). Or just the overall volume and requirements to do all. If you're just power, that's easiest. Body gets used to it. But if you go power, power, then outside zone and reach blocking, big body has to adjust.

Thinking while playing. With injuries, more new guys come in and have to think while playing. Most are young esp. in our system.

Originally posted by Hoovtrain:

Joes block was also not 10;yards down field, it was about 3 yards

Outside the pocket. Is this minute detail important to the point?