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49ers Offensive Line

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Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

I've always been a huge fan of building the O and D lines before going after all the glamour positions. It makes it much easier for the QB, backs and receivers if the O line is solid at both run and pass blocking but so many teams ignore this and go for the big name. QB's fail right and left because of poor O lines. Our only problem is we don't have the draft picks to do much in 2020. I'm okay with using our 1st on O line but a lot of people think it should be wide receiver or DB. It will probably come down to who is sitting there when we pick.
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

I've always been a huge fan of building the O and D lines before going after all the glamour positions. It makes it much easier for the QB, backs and receivers if the O line is solid at both run and pass blocking but so many teams ignore this and go for the big name. QB's fail right and left because of poor O lines. Our only problem is we don't have the draft picks to do much in 2020. I'm okay with using our 1st on O line but a lot of people think it should be wide receiver or DB. It will probably come down to who is sitting there when we pick.

Very much agree. We're seeing that with the Rams and Browns this year. Gave up key OL and more focus on the skill positions. I'm in that camp that the first pick should be OL but it depends on the players available ATM. I'd even consider a TE if he was the BPA. Best of both worlds. Adds additional PP help, monster in the run game and Kyle would murder LB's with 2 terrific pass catchers at the TE spot.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 22, 2019 at 8:41 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by PuckFarag10:
I doubt he goes that run heavy again. My guess was that to ease Jimmy back in and simply because it was just working. He rode that horse as long as he could, and he'll likely be more balanced now. If not lean slightly more pass heavy to set up the run for later in the game. I found this nifty little table from the Falcons SB run.

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/situational-run-pass-ratios--off-.html
This is all for comparison of what our run/pass ratio could end up like by the end of the year. Just swap the season to 2016.

This. Until the first 6 games of this year (minus Cincy), Kyle's always been a 60/40 pass/run guy. While he FIRST likes to set up the PA pass by establishing the run, in the end, he's still a WCO passing guy. Run isn't working like last game? Tons of short quick passes as an extension of the run. We've seen PA work even when we can't run simply because of the threat. And now he's got a QB who can win exclusively with the pass.

This is why it's odd he hasn't focused more on personnel that are far better at pass protection. Maybe that changes this off season like we saw his philosophy change from Pettis to Deebo/Hurd. But to NY's point, he does seem pretty stubborn about this.

You're right about KS being stubborn. Its almost like he doesn't learn his lesson about something until it's almost too late. Maybe after this season with the way he sees the pass protection breaking down so fast, and the OLs saving grace is Jimmy's quick decision making and release. It cant be him getting hurt again like Andrew Luck before we finally upgrade the pass protection around him, that just isn't an option.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Very much agree. We're seeing that with the Rams and Browns this year. Gave up key OL and more focus on the skill positions. I'm in that camp that the first pick should be OL but it depends on the players available ATM. I'd even consider a TE if he was the BPA. Best of both worlds. Adds additional PP help, monster in the run game and Kyle would murder LB's with 2 terrific pass catchers at the TE spot.

LOS has such a downstream effect on the entire game. Teams that have an OL that consistently maintain wins on 1st down by running, usually rule 3rd down conversion stats and TOP. It's not a coincidence that those teams also tend to have better defenses statistically for two reasons: (1) opponents get limited offensive possessions because your offense holds the ball so long and (2) there's nothing like a rested, fresh defense that can close the game down in Q4 that help seal wins. This is why I'm SUCH a huge proponent of OL talent along with a pipeline to help maintain play level despite injury. Wins might come a bit more easily against easier (QB) opponents, but if your team is seriously talking about a playoff run and possible SB, you need better talent along with a great scheme to match your opponent's talent. The one caveat is if your coaching resources are so outstanding along with QB play that you can get around this. However, that's more of an exception that the rule and even coaching has its limits when all things are equal (coach and talent).
Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

Welp don't hold your breath. Only way joe isn't on this team the next two yrs is if he retires.

Richburg's contract guarantees he's on the team for atleast a yr or two more.

Kyle doesn't value guards as much as we'd like him to also "investing" high draft capital it's more than likely not happening either (at IOL). Maybe the can trade down a couple times and throw a pick at an IOL in the 2nd or 3rd.

Start looking for athletic run-blocking OGs because that's what he likes (that aren't looked at as 1st rd picks).
Originally posted by NCommand:
Very much agree. We're seeing that with the Rams and Browns this year. Gave up key OL and more focus on the skill positions. I'm in that camp that the first pick should be OL but it depends on the players available ATM. I'd even consider a TE if he was the BPA. Best of both worlds. Adds additional PP help, monster in the run game and Kyle would murder LB's with 2 terrific pass catchers at the TE spot.

I'd love to see if we can work a trade for OJ Howard in the off season. Throw them a 2020 5th and 4th in 2021. He's done there. Howard was a good blocker at bama and imo just isn't being used correctly in TB.

SF needs to look at safety/WR as well as IOL.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by NYniner85:
Originally posted by NCommand:
LOL. Amen to that.

This team needs to find talent better than our starters... we're solid at depth now at T but Staley is 40, Tomlinson has reached his ceiling and has clear weakness in pass protection esp., Richburg has nobody to challenge him, Person needs an upgrade and McGlinchey has played very poorly this year.

It's time to invest high resources in the OL if we plan on making deep playoff runs.

Welp don't hold your breath. Only way joe isn't on this team the next two yrs is if he retires.

Richburg's contract guarantees he's on the team for atleast a yr or two more.

Kyle doesn't value guards as much as we'd like him to also "investing" high draft capital it's more than likely not happening either (at IOL). Maybe the can trade down a couple times and throw a pick at an IOL in the 2nd or 3rd.

Start looking for athletic run-blocking OGs because that's what he likes (that aren't looked at as 1st rd picks).


If Kyle is designing a position-less offense, (as the article below states) I would think he'll be starting to draft OLinemen higher. One reason is versatility and the other reason is that OLinemen may be more cap friendly. In other words, tweeners like Hurd, and Deebo types who are kind of like both RB and WR, and TE Dwelley/Juszczyk-types who are more receivers/H-backs, than blockers, may require better linemen to execute those varied play actions and alignments. It takes a bit of time for these Dwelly/Hurd/Juszczyk types to get downfield vs faster players like McKinnon/Pettis/Goodwin types. So you need a bit more stoutness on the pass protection side as well as a bit more power on the run-side if they execute man/power plays if defenses are zeroing in on the outside zone schemes.

As NC said, Kyle's been more pass than run, except for this year when the 49ers were dominating time of possession via the run the first half of the season. In one interview, he said he's never played with a top 10 defense, and he's had to adjust. I think one of the adjustments is a much stronger and varied run game. I can see Kyle continuing to devote a lot of draft capital to defense while retaining versatility and cap friendly-ness on offense and a much stronger run dimension to close out games in the 2nd half if the 49ers are ahead and his defense is dominating the opposing offense. In other words, I think Kyle will continue to want to have a 10 defense and he'll augment that defense with a top end run game - and if that's the case, I can see him devoting much higher draft capital to the OLinemen side of the equation.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.
It's a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers' offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on
https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/01/kyle-shanahans-evolving-position-less-offense/
Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'd love to see if we can work a trade for OJ Howard in the off season. Throw them a 2020 5th and 4th in 2021. He's done there. Howard was a good blocker at bama and imo just isn't being used correctly in TB.

SF needs to look at safety/WR as well as IOL.

Me too...would love this!
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Welp don't hold your breath. Only way joe isn't on this team the next two yrs is if he retires.

Richburg's contract guarantees he's on the team for atleast a yr or two more.

Kyle doesn't value guards as much as we'd like him to also "investing" high draft capital it's more than likely not happening either (at IOL). Maybe the can trade down a couple times and throw a pick at an IOL in the 2nd or 3rd.

Start looking for athletic run-blocking OGs because that's what he likes (that aren't looked at as 1st rd picks).

You're just stating the truth up to this point and the evidence backs that up. And I agree.

The only thing that gives me hope here is that he does spot his weaknesses quickly and adapts. He does switch his personnel targets if it's not working. And he's growing.

I think for 2.5 years now, he's probably over having to scheme around talent on the OL. Now, he can and did scheme around while the rest of the team was being built but now? Maybe he's ready to attack it. A G/T for the future...IOL. All for it esp. if they can trade back. Build an OL that's performing like that Pack OL right now in pass protection if he still wants to pass 60%. Let's build an OL that dictates a defense.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM ]
Originally posted by Giedi:
If Kyle is designing a position-less offense, (as the article below states) I would think he'll be starting to draft OLinemen higher. One reason is versatility and the other reason is that OLinemen may be more cap friendly. In other words, tweeners like Hurd, and Deebo types who are kind of like both RB and WR, and TE Dwelley/Juszczyk-types who are more receivers/H-backs, than blockers, may require better linemen to execute those varied play actions and alignments. It takes a bit of time for these Dwelly/Hurd/Juszczyk types to get downfield vs faster players like McKinnon/Pettis/Goodwin types. So you need a bit more stoutness on the pass protection side as well as a bit more power on the run-side if they execute man/power plays if defenses are zeroing in on the outside zone schemes.

As NC said, Kyle's been more pass than run, except for this year when the 49ers were dominating time of possession via the run the first half of the season. In one interview, he said he's never played with a top 10 defense, and he's had to adjust. I think one of the adjustments is a much stronger and varied run game. I can see Kyle continuing to devote a lot of draft capital to defense while retaining versatility and cap friendly-ness on offense and a much stronger run dimension to close out games in the 2nd half if the 49ers are ahead and his defense is dominating the opposing offense. In other words, I think Kyle will continue to want to have a 10 defense and he'll augment that defense with a top end run game - and if that's the case, I can see him devoting much higher draft capital to the OLinemen side of the equation.

The next play could feature the same group with Hurd lining up as a running back and the running back splitting out wide to give a more traditional 11 look with a wide receiver in the backfield. They could even empty the backfield and essentially turn that package into a five wide receiver set.
It's a fascinating concept that could turn the 49ers' offense into a tornado of varying personnel packages that tears up every offensive norm or tendency defensive coaches rely on
https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2019/06/01/kyle-shanahans-evolving-position-less-offense/

I'm not following on why having position-less offense = drafting lineman higher?

I mean the draft pay scale is set in place regardless of what position you draft. Lineman get paid a ton of money that includes IOL.

all I'm saying is Kyle and his dad don't value OGs (not saying it's right) There's a history of that. They put money/draft capital into OT/C. IF kyle wants to continue having a top 10 defense that means they would continue putting resources into the defense, not the OL

What I think will happen is they will find scheme fit lineman that don't cost a ton and don't require high draft picks. Until I see Kyle invest a ton into IOL I can't say it's gonna change.


  • dj43
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Originally posted by Kolohe:
Has Brunskill ever played OG? OT's don't always work at OG. I'd rather just see them draft a OG late or pick up another OG in free agency to compete. Should be a pretty decent market for O-line this upcoming March, but I doubt they spend much there.
Yes. He played a bit in PS and subbed for Person a little bit in season. He also played center in PS.

If Coleman doesn't come back, Brunskill might be the swing next season, although I see him competing with Person to start at RG.

Though the sample size was small, only 284 snaps, he graded out as our best overall OL. His PP is well above anyone else. #12 OT in the league...small sample size.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You're just stating the truth up to this point and the evidence backs that up. And I agree.

The only thing that gives me hope here is that he does spot his weaknesses quickly and adapts. He does switch his personnel targets if it's not working. And he's growing.

I think for 2.5 years now, he's probably over having to scheme around talent on the OL. Now, he can and did scheme around while the rest of the team was being built but now? Maybe he's ready to attack it. A G/T for the future...IOL. All for it esp. if they can trade back. Build an OL that's performing like that Pack OL right now in pass protection if he still wants to pass 60%. Let's build an OL that dictates a defense.

Yeah that's all I'm pointing out...not saying it's right or wrong.

2.5 yrs from now maybe he does go IOL early in the draft, they will have a ton of money invested into the defense that's for sure.

You brought up the packers line which is a good OL, let's look at what they "invested" to make it happen....

(from 2010-2019)

David Bakhtiari-4th rd pick
Elgton Jenkins-2nd rd rookie
Corey Linsley-5th rd pick (backup center for yrs)
Billy Turner- was a 3rd pick who is on his 4th team in 5 yrs.
Bryan Bulaga-1st rd pick

overall not a ton IMO
Originally posted by CatchMaster80:
I've always been a huge fan of building the O and D lines before going after all the glamour positions. It makes it much easier for the QB, backs and receivers if the O line is solid at both run and pass blocking but so many teams ignore this and go for the big name. QB's fail right and left because of poor O lines. Our only problem is we don't have the draft picks to do much in 2020. I'm okay with using our 1st on O line but a lot of people think it should be wide receiver or DB. It will probably come down to who is sitting there when we pick.


Good post and agree.

The more time JG has to throw the easier it is for him to connect w/receivers AND the better the running game is.

Our DLine has improved our whole D especially the secondary.
Originally posted by NYniner85:
Yeah that's all I'm pointing out...not saying it's right or wrong.

2.5 yrs from now maybe he does go IOL early in the draft, they will have a ton of money invested into the defense that's for sure.

You brought up the packers line which is a good OL, let's look at what they "invested" to make it happen....

(from 2010-2019)

David Bakhtiari-4th rd pick
Elgton Jenkins-2nd rd rookie
Corey Linsley-5th rd pick (backup center for yrs)
Billy Turner- was a 3rd pick who is on his 4th team in 5 yrs.
Bryan Bulaga-1st rd pick

overall not a ton IMO

So true esp. these days. I'd prefer the odds of high capital but so much goes into finding high quality OL. The key is to keep investing resources there and developing. Like I said in the previous post, if BPA is another position, that's OK as long as they genuinely try to upgrade at least 1, maybe 2 starters and start planning for life after Staley because it ain't Skule unfortunately.
  • 4919
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Originally posted by NinerGM:
So just a few pictures of what folks here are chatting about - 1st and 10 at the SF 15 1:13 left in the 1st quarter

Okay NC you might have to correct me here, but I believe this is an IZ running play, and it should be a 5+ yard gain if blocked properly. The scheme is great. Kyle has more more blockers at the LOS than AZ has attackers. They are NOT bringing a safety down to help although it appears that way. Keep your eye on 92 and how he attacks Person.



At the snap, Person is still in his stance and 92 is ALREADY in the A gap and Person is already beaten. Despite this, the play still has a chance because as I said there are more than enough blockers at the point at the attack as you will see to block this effectively. Since 92 already has penetration, the left side of the LOS is not an option at ALL.



Juice is about to take out the DE who's initially unblocked and you see the running lane forming. The only thing that needs to happen is a block on the ILB (McG) and the OLB. Tomlinson is pulling hopefully to take out the OLB and now Dwelley will also pull right behind Tomlinson to clean up any one else. Really brilliant design.



I'm not sure what was supposed to happen but BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley completely run by the OLB. No chip, no shade, no block, NOTHING. At this point the play is dead. The runner has no where to go. Person gets beat to his gap and BOTH Tomlinson and Dwelley don't block a free guy running RIGHT AT the RB.



There were a ton of examples where our execution has just been poor. Maybe because this was an IZ play and we're not as adept to running those, but you're not going to get positive yardage when THREE blocks are missed at our around the LOS. Maybe Kittle does what Dwelley AND Tomlinson missed. This should go for a HUGE gain because the only person who be able to stop the runner would be the CB or maybe the safety. However given the speed of our runners, this should be at least 5 - 7 yards on 1st down. This is what the Niners aren't doing anymore that they did against previous opponents. They aren't for whatever reason executing even when the scheme is there to defeat the defense - and it should have.

(PS - I'm still struggling in how to capture the video of this so you all can see it develop in real-time , so if any of you have advice, PM me!)

I think the problem here is still block assignment. Or should blame KS being too greedy. Tomlinson and Dwelley both went for 2nd level blocking without anyone cleaning up the LOS. Juice apparently went for the only blocking target. No one took care of No. 32 who was clearly in the box to begin with.

All in all, I am a believer of jet sweep. Our RBs and WRs are pretty fast. Mixing jet sweeps with lateral throws. it would be more than enough to stretch defense.
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