There are 215 users in the forums
Why the 49ers offensive will experience an evolution this season
Jun 18, 2014 at 11:29 AM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,331
^^^ pretty much this!
Jun 18, 2014 at 11:34 AM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
I have to agree. This offense has taken this team to three straight NFC CG's so I don't see much change in the overall scheme of run/pass. What I do see is that when the pass is called- it will be more 3 WR sets than a two tight end set. What I also see is that one year seeing what Colin can and can't do, plus the clear fact that he's now locked in as the QB of the future, has enabled G-ro to better fit the offense around Colin from a long term scheme point of view. Red zone was an issue last year so if there is any redesigning going on, it's the redzone area of the offense.Originally posted by cciowa:please. I can see that, you can see that. does roman see that? if he does see that, does he know what to do with it? sorry but It does not fill me with confidence when the answer to my question is "well I hope he does" .That is why I chuckle at those who think we will go to these exotic four man wide out sets which means vernon is not needed anymore. roman and JH have their way of doing things and all of the healthy crabtrees and additions of stevie johnson and rookie wide outs will probably not change it that much.
Jun 18, 2014 at 11:38 AM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by NCommand:^^^ pretty much this!
Yup, I'll just add that while there is indeed a small chance that we might keep some very good pass catchers on the bench, that also means we have a deep bench for a good playoff run. It seems around November of every year we start running out of WR's.
Jun 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM
- SofaKing
- Veteran
- Posts: 27,442
Originally posted by matt49er:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by swayze:
Originally posted by matt49er:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/2014/06/17/offensive-makeover-promised-by-coordinator-roman-thanks-to-new-pieces/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+49ersHotRead+%2849ers+Hot+Read%29
The 49ers will unveil a "different offense" this season, a vague term that offensive coordinator Greg Roman
"Starting with the beginning of the offseason, we as the offensive staff, after three years here, it was kind of a time-to-clean-out-the-garage type of thing," Roman said. "We went through everything we've done and really stripped it back down to its most element, basic parts and start over at square one."
could. it. be. true...?
I certainly hope so. Re-evaluation of this offense was needed. I like the idea of starting from square one, evaluating the talent we have, and building an offense from scratch that best suits those talents. No more trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
When I imagine what I want the 49ers offense to look like, I look and see who we have at the skill positions, and pick the personnel groupings that get our best players on the field.
In order, the best personnel groupings for this team IMO are as follows:
1. 11 Personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR)
2. 21 Personnel (2 RB, 1 TE, 2 WR)
3. 12 Personnel (1 RB, 2 TE, 2 WR)
4. 22 Personnel (2 RB, 2 TE, 1 WR)
-------
'11' gets our best players on the field IMO. The WR core is now a strength. I'll be beyond pissed if we bring in Johnson to ride the pine in a limited role. He needs to be out there with a prominent role in addition to Crab, Boldin, and Davis.
'21' is our next best grouping. This is to get Bruce Miller on the field. He's an excellent lead blocker, and capable pass catcher. Just because we have WRs now doesn't mean we should phase the FB out of the offense.
'12' goes back to a singe back formation, this time we get McDonald on the field. He can be on the line, split out wide, or in the backfield. I debated putting this grouping at #2, but ultimately felt Miller was a better player than McDonald at this point.
'22' is the grouping I hope to see much less of this year. It was embarrassing at times last year at the frequency which we used this grouping, mainly due to the lack of options at WR. Given all the WR depth this year, I see no reason to use this other than short-yardage, or to catch the defense off-guard with play-action.
Great post man! I completely agree with everything you said.
Thanks!
Originally posted by thl408:
Nice breakdown. Another grouping I'd like to see this season is 20 (2RB/0TE/3WR). This never happened last season as VD was a mainstay on the field. It's very odd to take VD off the field, but this grouping can give Gore the FB lead blocker he works well with, while fielding the big3 WRs (Crabs/Boldin/SJ). It seems like it could be a well balanced grouping, even with VD off the field. Gore loves to work off a FB lead and putting 3 WRs on the field may force the defense to go nickel with a 7 man front.
As for Roman's comment, I have no idea what that means. Starting from square 1? I didn't have a huge issue with the playbook, just some of the situational playcalling. The 49ers have the personnel to do anything they want. 3WR + VD to run a spread passing attack. Two very good run blocking TEs, plus a great blocking FB, to power run.
Good call. I thought about putting '20' on the list, but I'm not convinced the coaching staff will be comfortable with zero TEs on the field. We might see it used as a wrinkle on occasion, but not nearly enough to call it a part of the offense. Vernon is legitimately one of the best players on offense, so I understand why the coaches want him to be an everydown player.
I'm not sure how much to read into Roman's comment either. Starting from square 1 sounds great to me, but we won't know how serious he is until we see the team play. I don't expect us to abandon our previous principles. I still expect to see plenty of power formations and running the football. But I also expect to see more 3 WR sets, and less 2 TE sets. Reason being, we'd much rather have Stevie Johnson on the field than McDonald. He is easily the better player, and I think we took on his contract and gave up a mid-round pick to use him extensively. The goal should be to roll with the groupings that put the best players on the field. That's what I hope to see from Roman.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Jun 18, 2014 at 2:44 PM ]
Jun 20, 2014 at 5:25 AM
- NeeJ49er
- Veteran
- Posts: 9,580
Originally posted by Giedi:Originally posted by NCommand:^^^ pretty much this!
Yup, I'll just add that while there is indeed a small chance that we might keep some very good pass catchers on the bench, that also means we have a deep bench for a good playoff run. It seems around November of every year we start running out of WR's.
it would be nice to have a nice supply of healthy WR's for the playoff push ...but you are right, every year we are thin at WR down the stretch, we might have to re-sign Colin Jones and use him as an emergency receiver again
Jun 20, 2014 at 6:26 AM
- RicetoYoung
- Member
- Posts: 284
Originally posted by Giedi:
I have to agree. This offense has taken this team to three straight NFC CG's so I don't see much change in the overall scheme of run/pass. What I do see is that when the pass is called- it will be more 3 WR sets than a two tight end set. What I also see is that one year seeing what Colin can and can't do, plus the clear fact that he's now locked in as the QB of the future, has enabled G-ro to better fit the offense around Colin from a long term scheme point of view. Red zone was an issue last year so if there is any redesigning going on, it's the redzone area of the offense.
I have to disagree slightly. I believe our Defense has been more productive in helping us get to a Super Bowl and 2 NFCCG's more than our offense. This team reminds me of the 1997-2001 Bucs, who were always in the top 3 defenses in the NFL, but had one of the most incompetent offenses, until they finally filled in holes on their offense in 2002 and won the Super Bowl. Something we may have done this offseason. We'll see though.
Jun 23, 2014 at 5:24 PM
- pasodoc9er
- Veteran
- Posts: 21,009
Unhh, much as I wish it weren't so, I go with CC on this. Roman is going to change his spots and go from an elephant to a leopard? I don't think so. And I agree with the RB/TE/WR groupings above, 11 my favorite and 22 the one I would like to see us in the least. If we at long last have the horses and not use them, I think there will be a WZ revolt.
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Jun 23, 2014 at 5:25 PM ]
Jun 23, 2014 at 7:09 PM
- Big_Daddy
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,768
Vic Fangio said he hasn't got a long look at the 3-5 DBs during the minicamp, because the offense on the other side rarely goes to 3-4 WR sets. Sounds about right.
Jun 23, 2014 at 8:49 PM
- ethan
- Veteran
- Posts: 376
I think we might see more passes to running backs out of the backfield. Carlos Hyde was lauded for his exceptional pass catching skills in the pre draft workouts, and Marcus Lattimore averaged 14.2 yards per catch as a RB his freshman season in college. They seem to be drafting towards that.
Jun 24, 2014 at 12:21 AM
- Phil
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,720
30 or so pass attempts per game would make me happy. If it works. More passes to RB's, screens and so forth. More west coast offense. Better play design, better play calling. Less Crabtree in the endzone for the final play of the season.
Jun 24, 2014 at 3:42 AM
- WilliamDonovan
- Member
- Posts: 289
I like the power offense, but it needs to evolve. In 2011, what Harbaugh was doing wasnt new, but it was unique. Nobody knew where we were going with the ball and our running game was almost unstoppable. They've dropped off since, especially if you take Kaps yards away.
At the end of last year, i think teams really picked up on what we were doing. Our run game was getting completely stuffed. Instead of running on the same downs out of the same formations everytime, they need to switch it up.
I do feel we need to add more passes, but not a lot. The coaches just got to be more creative. The way they were calling the offense last year was borderline Jimmy Raye.
At the end of last year, i think teams really picked up on what we were doing. Our run game was getting completely stuffed. Instead of running on the same downs out of the same formations everytime, they need to switch it up.
I do feel we need to add more passes, but not a lot. The coaches just got to be more creative. The way they were calling the offense last year was borderline Jimmy Raye.
[ Edited by WilliamDonovan on Jun 24, 2014 at 3:44 AM ]
Jun 24, 2014 at 11:32 AM
- NeeJ49er
- Veteran
- Posts: 9,580
Originally posted by WilliamDonovan:I like the power offense, but it needs to evolve. In 2011, what Harbaugh was doing wasnt new, but it was unique. Nobody knew where we were going with the ball and our running game was almost unstoppable. They've dropped off since, especially if you take Kaps yards away.
At the end of last year, i think teams really picked up on what we were doing. Our run game was getting completely stuffed. Instead of running on the same downs out of the same formations everytime, they need to switch it up.
I do feel we need to add more passes, but not a lot. The coaches just got to be more creative. The way they were calling the offense last year was borderline Jimmy Raye.
funny you say that, when me and my wife attended the game vs the panthers at the stick last year, a lot of fans were asking "who's calling the plays? ..Jimmy Raye??
Jun 24, 2014 at 11:35 AM
- 49AllTheTime
- Veteran
- Posts: 66,641
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:was there too, ugh that game was so painful to watch...gave me a flashbacks of the Nolan/Smith era
Originally posted by WilliamDonovan:
I like the power offense, but it needs to evolve. In 2011, what Harbaugh was doing wasnt new, but it was unique. Nobody knew where we were going with the ball and our running game was almost unstoppable. They've dropped off since, especially if you take Kaps yards away.
At the end of last year, i think teams really picked up on what we were doing. Our run game was getting completely stuffed. Instead of running on the same downs out of the same formations everytime, they need to switch it up.
I do feel we need to add more passes, but not a lot. The coaches just got to be more creative. The way they were calling the offense last year was borderline Jimmy Raye.
funny you say that, when me and my wife attended the game vs the panthers at the stick last year, a lot of fans were asking "who's calling the plays? ..Jimmy Raye??
Jun 24, 2014 at 12:06 PM
- NCommand
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 123,331
Originally posted by Phil:
30 or so pass attempts per game would make me happy. If it works. More passes to RB's, screens and so forth. More west coast offense. Better play design, better play calling. Less Crabtree in the endzone for the final play of the season.
Agreed...think we need to curb our expectations a bit and make them a bit more realistic. We'll probably see a few more 3 WR sets with Johnson on board. But even when you go back to last year and look at the 5 receiver sets, most were 2 WR's and 2 TE's and 1 FB/RB split out wide. That is NOT a 3-WR set. So I expect that when we do 3-WR sets, we'll see these as a package here and there on 3rd downs. But like ethan noted above, what we'll probably see more of is an emphasis on the outlet receivers and tosses to the RB's in the flats. The coaching staff can see two things very clear (now): 1) We have a 3rd WR option that is better than our 2nd TE and Miller and 2) We now have RB's (Hunter, James, Hyde, Lattimore, etc.) who the coaches feel can be true duel threats and to save CK, it's a great idea to pass SOME to the RB's more now even as primary reads (i.e. swing passes).
To me, it's all about what the coaches feel comfortable with. Since they have clearly gone on record to note a desire to have a third WR and it sure seems like the RB's were getting tons of reps catching the ball, I think these "packages" are really the two elements that will be added to our power running game and intermediate passing game. And that alone may be enough.
BigDaddy alluded to what Fangio said about how hard it is to get his nickle/slot guys reps b/c our own offense doesn't run 3-WR sets.
IMHO, I think there has been a huge push by Baalke/Jed to get this offense up to a more pro level...even Fangio would like this. Given that HaRoman have scrapped the offense and are starting over leads me to believe they are now formulating an offense based on new personnel and their perceieved strengths (i.e. RB's who can catch and run and a 3rd WR who has better hands than a 2nd TE or FB).
So we'll see.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 25, 2014 at 7:34 AM ]
Jun 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM
- cciowa
- Veteran
- Posts: 60,541
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...think we need to curb our expectations a bit and make them a bit more realistic. We'll probably see a few more 3 WR sets with Johnson on board. But even when you go back to last year and look at the 5 receiver sets, most were 2 WR's and 2 TE's and 1 FB/RB split out wide. That is NOT a 3-WR set. So I expect that when we do 3-WR sets, we'll see these as a package here and there on 3rd downs. But like ethan noted above, what we'll probably see more of is an emphasis on the outlet receivers and tosses to the RB's in the flats. The coaching staff can see two things very clear (now): 1) We have a 3rd WR option that is better than our 2nd TE and Miller and 2) We now have RB's (Hunter, James, Hyde, Lattimore, etc.) who the coaches feel can be true duel threats and to save CK, it's a great idea to pass SOME to the RB's more now even as primary reads (i.e. swing passes).
To me, it's all about what the coaches feel comfortable with. Since they have clearly gone on record to note a desire to have a third WR and it sure seems like the RB's were getting tons of reps catching the ball, I think these "packages" are really the two elements that will be added to our power running game and intermediate passing game. And that alone may be enough.
BigDaddy alluded to what Fangio said about how hard it is to get his nickle/slot guys reps b/c our own offense doesn't run 3-WR sets.
IMHO, I think there has been a huge push by Baalke/Jed to get this offense up to a more pro level...even Fangio would like this. Given that HaRoman have scrapped the offense and are starting over leads me to believe they are now formulating an offense based on new personnel and their perceieved strengths by the coaches (i.e. RB's who can catch and run and a 3rd WR who has better hands than a 2nd TE).
So we'll see.
after waiting for the "explosion" to take place last year excuse me if i want to see this take place first