Reason and Emotion

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
People in general love to find blame in someone, anyone in particular.

- If we don't win it all it's because Baalke, Harbaugh or both so FIRE THEM BOTH!
- If we don't sign "names" it's Baalke's fault or it's because of the GM/coach "split" so fire one or the other!!!!
- If something doesn't get done the way WE think it should have, so-and-so SUCKS!!!!!

Neither life or football works that way.

- Sometimes teams have a plan that isn't conducive to signing names who want big bucks
- Sometimes players visit teams to solely use them as leverage
- Sometimes a team is deep enough that they really don't have to over-pay for guys whose performance isn't commensurate to the money they want
- Sometimes you can have a great plan, great coaches, a great GM, great players and plenty of draft picks and STILL not win it all

Yes, sometimes individuals eff up, but things are almost never that simple/certain. However, people want and NEED simplicity/certainty so we make up these stories in our head about why things didn't go the way we believe they should have, why so-and-so is to blame for the failure and why if we just do this-thus-and-so, everything will be better. It's b******t, but we tell ourselves (and others) these stories all the time.

Yes.

There's people who truly don't seem to have any appreciation for how good this team has been, what a heck of a job both Harbaugh and Baalke have done. A fan of a team that hasn't had the same success lately would love to have seen some of the playoff runs that this team has had. No they haven't won the Superbowl, but as long as Baalke and Harbaugh are around, I have no doubt that this team will always be within striking distance. If you take a fan of the Dallas 8-8's, you don't think they'd trade what their team has been doing lately for success that the 49er have had, even without a Superbowl?

Before JOHN Harbaugh won it all, he had set an NFL record for taking his team to 5 straight playoffs games to start his head coaching career (something that his brother could very well surpass). He had done something no other head coach had done in the long history of this league, yet fans had no interest in hearing that nor did they give a s**t about it. If he hadn't won that championship, they were ready to run him out of town.

In a nutshell, that summarizes the fanatical nature of "fans."

Great points here

Well what i find funny is that...

THere are people criticizing the loss of Whitner, Rogers, and Brown and point those losses as reasons why we won't succeed. Then want us to get big name free agents.

What they tend to forget is that we only had Whitner and Rogers in the first place because Nmandi (big name free agent) passed on us and signed with Philly. And that both of those guys were disappointing high 1st rd picks when we got them.

Brown is a solid corner... that was a 5th rd pick and developed over time.

Its not all about big names. Big names make fans like me feel good about Free Agency and the draft... but they typically cost more money than they are worth and end up hurting the team in the long run.

In general, I like the way our FO goes about both the draft and free agency. There's going to be swings and misses, but overall they are out looking for bargains and have a good track record doing so.

Edit: Now draft a shutdown corner and lets win a superbowl.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by NinerBuff:
For long-term viability in the league (aka the Patriots and the Steelers) you need:

1) QB capable of getting the team to and winning in the playoffs - CHECK

2) Coaching staff who can reinvent themselves, due to the nature of the league and the constant shifting of offensive and defensive strategies - CHECK

3) A front office who's track record outpaces 2/3 of the league, year in and year out. It isn't feasible to have the best offseason every year, but in order to sustain long-term viability, the team needs to acquire draft picks, trades, and FA signings at or near the top 10 of the league every year. This will provide leverage against losing any specific player to injury, FA, trade, or cap ramifications. - CHECK

Now that we will be drafting in the later part of the 1st round, our drafting strategy now is to collect as many picks as possible and trade up/down the draft for specific players. Also, due to the nature of having a very good defense and o-line, our players will sign lucrative FA deals on other teams, giving us additional compensatory picks. Baalke and company have shown a penchant for drafting astutely (2012 draft not withstanding) and have made shrewd FA pickups that generally have excellent ROI.

I believe that our window will remain open as long as we have Kaep (or another high caliber QB), Harbaugh (or another high caliber coach), and Baalke (or high caliber GM)... while the remainder of the team will change slightly every year, those pieces aren't as crucial to our long-term success.

Winning a SB requires not only a top 10 team, but also a really good run, and a lot of luck. We obviously have a top 10 team, and we've come up short 3x now. The luck part makes it all that much more interesting come January.

All of this. People see Denver, New Orleans and New England blowing their wad because they have semi-ancient QB's and want to get on the bandwagon. The 49ers are in an entirely different place than those franchises, they can afford to be selective and smart with their use of resources, Kaepernick isn't on the verge of retirement, this team has a lot of young talent and can be a playoff team and Superbowl contender for the next decade, if not longer.


Going into a frothy-mouthed panic when your team has been to 3 straight Conference Championship games and a Superbowl doesn't make much sense. .The old adage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies very well here. Yes, they haven't won a Superbowl like we'd all prefer, but they've also been far more successful than the vast majority of NFL teams during that time period. Clearly they are doing something right, clearly it has been working, why change it up?

NFL FA is always a frenzy for fans that think from year to year, whereas some of us think in a more macroscopic sense. You can easily argue that when a team wins a SB, it doesn't reflect the 'best year' for that team, rather there were several fortuitous bounces that happened, culminating in a SB victory...

Take the Packers or Patriots... their best teams (during the season) didn't win a SB, other years that were still very good, but not as good as their best led to a SB.

yeah but we could've solved PR,KR,3rd WR for kicker money with Edelman or Sanders.......

Originally posted by CRABTREE:
yeah but we could've solved PR,KR,3rd WR for kicker money with Edelman or Sanders.......

Edelman + sanders signing for 3M? Really? Besides, Phil helped us more than those guys likely would.

Can anyone point to another starting team roster that is definitely more talented overall? (Seattle may be as talented, but I don't think they are more talented.) Can anyone point to a total roster that is deeper than the 49ers? Those are not a rhetorical questions - I am actually curious (though I think I know the answers).

Originally posted by CRABTREE:
yeah but we could've solved PR,KR,3rd WR for kicker money with Edelman or Sanders.......

You could've been born a giraffe but you weren't.

It's about reality...the reality is, those guys went elsewhere, not here. So now, the team begins looking at what is left on the market that can be had cheaply, then focus on executing on the draft. Everything else is speculation at best, whining/moaning at worse.

Originally posted by CRABTREE:

yeah but we could've solved PR,KR,3rd WR for kicker money with Edelman or Sanders.......

Literally all of those spots you referenced can be covered with a 5th round draft pick.
Anytime I see somebody on here referencing now they are upset we didn't make a run at big name FA like Allen/Peppers/Ware/Revis/Talib I have to remind myself that maybe they just play too much madden.
Opinions on who we should sign can be great, but when people talk about signing a small zone cover CB I literally want to tell them they are on the wrong side of the Bay Area.
Is that bad?

Originally posted by 49erphan:

Can anyone point to another starting team roster that is definitely more talented overall? (Seattle may be as talented, but I don't think they are more talented.) Can anyone point to a total roster that is deeper than the 49ers? Those are not a rhetorical questions - I am actually curious (though I think I know the answers).

On pure talent alone
You could make a case for the Broncos, next up the Pats? (Probably not though)

Seems fair to me to criticize the moves Baalke didn't make at the beginning of last year either in free agency or the draft, given they didn't achieve their ultimate goal. However, to b***h and moan about these moves even before the season starts, before they've even had one snap of the ball? OR worse still, kicking and screaming about the off-season even before the draft where we START with 5 picks in the first 3 rounds in one of the deeper drafts in recent memory???

Some of you dudes are either just trolling hard (which is sad enough) or are incredibly ignorant about the way NFL teams in the real world are put together.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
People in general love to find blame in someone, anyone in particular.

- If we don't win it all it's because Baalke, Harbaugh or both so FIRE THEM BOTH!
- If we don't sign "names" it's Baalke's fault or it's because of the GM/coach "split" so fire one or the other!!!!
- If something doesn't get done the way WE think it should have, so-and-so SUCKS!!!!!

Neither life or football works that way.

- Sometimes teams have a plan that isn't conducive to signing names who want big bucks
- Sometimes players visit teams to solely use them as leverage
- Sometimes a team is deep enough that they really don't have to over-pay for guys whose performance isn't commensurate to the money they want
- Sometimes you can have a great plan, great coaches, a great GM, great players and plenty of draft picks and STILL not win it all

Yes, sometimes individuals eff up, but things are almost never that simple/certain. However, people want and NEED simplicity/certainty so we make up these stories in our head about why things didn't go the way we believe they should have, why so-and-so is to blame for the failure and why if we just do this-thus-and-so, everything will be better. It's b******t, but we tell ourselves (and others) these stories all the time.

Yes.

There's people who truly don't seem to have any appreciation for how good this team has been, what a heck of a job both Harbaugh and Baalke have done. A fan of a team that hasn't had the same success lately would love to have seen some of the playoff runs that this team has had. No they haven't won the Superbowl, but as long as Baalke and Harbaugh are around, I have no doubt that this team will always be within striking distance. If you take a fan of the Dallas 8-8's, you don't think they'd trade what their team has been doing lately for success that the 49er have had, even without a Superbowl?

Before JOHN Harbaugh won it all, he had set an NFL record for taking his team to 5 straight playoffs games to start his head coaching career (something that his brother could very well surpass). He had done something no other head coach had done in the long history of this league, yet fans had no interest in hearing that nor did they give a s**t about it. If he hadn't won that championship, they were ready to run him out of town.

In a nutshell, that summarizes the fanatical nature of "fans."

Great points here

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Seems fair to me to criticize the moves Baalke didn't make at the beginning of last year either in free agency or the draft, given they didn't achieve their ultimate goal. However, to b***h and moan about these moves even before the season starts, before they've even had one snap of the ball? OR worse still, kicking and screaming about the off-season even before the draft where we START with 5 picks in the first 3 rounds in one of the deeper drafts in recent memory???

Some of you dudes are either just trolling hard (which is sad enough) or are incredibly ignorant about the way NFL teams in the real world are put together.

Thanks people.

All I'm saying is when was the last time our 3rd WR was as good as Edelman or Sanders? I'm $ure we could've pulled the check book out

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
People in general love to find blame in someone, anyone in particular.

- If we don't win it all it's because Baalke, Harbaugh or both so FIRE THEM BOTH!
- If we don't sign "names" it's Baalke's fault or it's because of the GM/coach "split" so fire one or the other!!!!
- If something doesn't get done the way WE think it should have, so-and-so SUCKS!!!!!

Neither life or football works that way.

- Sometimes teams have a plan that isn't conducive to signing names who want big bucks
- Sometimes players visit teams to solely use them as leverage
- Sometimes a team is deep enough that they really don't have to over-pay for guys whose performance isn't commensurate to the money they want
- Sometimes you can have a great plan, great coaches, a great GM, great players and plenty of draft picks and STILL not win it all

Yes, sometimes individuals eff up, but things are almost never that simple/certain. However, people want and NEED simplicity/certainty so they/we make up stories in our head (which often seem completely logical to us) about why things didn't go the way we believe they should have, why so-and-so is to blame for the failure and why if we just do this-thus-and-so, everything will be better. It's b******t, but we tell ourselves (and others) these stories all the time.

Of course, we have ZERO clue to what really happened, what conversations really took place or not or what the overall game plan is. So we fill in the gaps with our own speculation, assumptions and flawed/uninformed logic.

There are those among us that forget how many variables must come together to win a championship. As an example if we need some offensive speed, Balke can either find a free agent or try the draft. If he finds somebody that the Coach likes, then the OC must find a way to utilize that speed, depending on his position coaches recommendation. This doesn't even take into account salary cap issues. The GM must always keep an eye open to the future when bringing in players. Free agents want money up front, rookies are paid under the contract parameters of the player's union. As we know, when a rookie has a break out year, there will be a big contract in the near future. Looking ahead up to four years in advance (freshman college) the GM can try to anticipate the strength of positions for each year and then figure that into his decisions. It's not easy. Our front office is doing a remarkable job IMHO. It's a fine line, staying out of salary cap hell and keeping the quality of players signed that will keep the team at the top of the league standings.

fro first off man, fantastic post buddy! this is a great thread and you did a great job articulating your point of view and setting up a great debate.

I'm with you, on the side that this front office knows what they are doing, they have built a great franchise with one of, if not the most talented and deep rosters in all of football. And the way they did it was through the draft and supplementing via free agency. History shows that teams that win FA typically don't win actual games (in the salary cap era that is).

This league is as much about managing the cap as it is coaching and playing on the field. You simply cannot just build a team of high priced vets by going the route of the NY Yankees so to speak. Cheap, young talent needs to constantly flow into the roster while older talent exits. IMO a lot of the fanbase is a bit impatient waiting for the elusive 6th title and that's understandable given A) how long we sucked recently and B) how close we've close the last few years under this current regime. Both things have led to high, often reactionary emotion among fans.

No FO is perfect, our 2012 draft was mostly a miss, a few FA's haven't exactly worked out the way we would have liked them to. Overall though, you can't argue with success. Since Baalke became GM and Harbaugh was hired as HC, we've been to three consecutive NFCCG and a Superbowl, a couple bounces of the ball and we could be a three time defending SB champion. But we're not, we're still very, very close.

The roster looks very good, almost every single position manned by an older player, has a young talented player behind him ready to step in if needed. RB we have Lattimore/Hunter/LMJ waiting behind Gore. DE we have Tank/TJE behind Cowboy. We just replaced an old Goodwin with Kilgore at OC. Yes we need a little help at CB & WR and guess what, this is one of the best drafts in history at those 2 positions and we have a ton of picks to make it happen.

AB has done tireless work to show that our future cap situation is not dire, we are set up to take care of our top guys and keep this thing going which leads me to my next point.

This organization is doing things the right way. We just watched the Patriots let Talib walk, sign Revis for big $$ and piss off Wilfork leading him to ask for his release. That type of thing would not happen here, we're not going to sign a player to be the highest paid (or even one of the highest IMO) on the team, we are going to draft well and sign our own guys to the big money deals (see VD, Gore, Boldin, Staley, Willis, Bowman, Brooks etc)

I will admit it's awesome during FA when you find out the 49ers signed some awesome FA & you get to day dream about the impact they will make on our team. IMO it will be far more exciting to watch how we draft & even more so how we maneuver with our own guys. Personally I can't wait until we get Kaep, Aldon & Crabs (maybe even Iupati) extended.

A great example of the terrific planning done by this front office will be shown this season when we get to see this draft class AND watch 2 guys who I think will have a big time, 1st round like impact as first year players in Marcus Lattimore and Tank Carradine. How many teams will be able to say they added 2 players with 1st round talent on top of their draft class this year? One, the San Francisco 49ers.

I wouldn't mind splurging on Vince. I think even our vets would agree.