What is Kaeps worth....?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Don't see the "WCO" being used by Harbaugh...yet alone "modernized." He runs a run first, power game which is about as far away from the WCO as you can get. I'm not sure why Harbaugh or others insist that his offense is a WCO off shoot, other than the obvious need to honor BW at Stanford and now the niners.

WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

Some of these may be a matter of QB development...or lack thereof...so far.

But besides that, exact same offense as Walsh. lol

Originally posted by Niners99:
We can have the best overall team in the NFL, but if we dont have a good QB to lead the way, were not winning a SB. Im not sure if youre trying to say we should let Kap leave instead of pay up? Look at all the bad teams in the NFL. What do they all have in common? They dont have a good QB. Look at all the good teams in the NFL. They all have good QB's.

The 12 playoff teams this year all had a top 15 QB. Rodgers, Brees, Kap, Wilson, Foles, Newton, Manning, Brady, Rivers, Luck, Dalton, Smith. It wasnt an accident.

The modern NFL requires a top flight QB to win titles. Look at the last 15 Super Bowls. Warner, Brady, Brady, Brady, Big Ben, Peyton, Eli, Big Ben, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Wilson. So 12 of the 15 years the winner had a top flight QB. Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Joe Flacco were the exceptions. Dilfer and Johnson had historically good defenses, and Flacco went on the tear of his career at the perfect time.

Unless we plan on having the best D of the era coming up here, were going to need a good QB, and Kap is well on his way to being that player. Its going to be expensive, but thats the cost of a franchise talent. If you get into the business of being cheap and trying to replace special players with drafted replacements, youre going to come out the loser.

Kap has the potential to be historically special. His size, speed, arm strength, mind, work ethic, and ability to handle big game pressure is an incredibly rare combination. The 49ers need to hold on tight to him, and they will.

Ask any front office in the NFL about how valuable a franchise QB is. Suggesting that its a good idea to try and win titles by spreading the cash around and just putting a competent QB behind center is lunacy to me. Youre banking on historically great defense at that point, which isnt realistic.

"top flight" =/= Top 15

Are you arguing Wilson is a Top 15 Quarterback? So is Flacco. So was Brad Johnson (identical career numbers to Troy Aikman). So 14 of the past 15 Super Bowl winning Quarterbacks were TOP 15 in the league.

Jim Harbaugh can draft and groom someone into a Top 15 Quarterback by next years playoffs. Are you arguing we should pay this player Flacco money ($20 million /year)

Originally posted by Niners99:
lol we dont run a Bill Walsh system. We mix in elements of a Walsh system, but we run a ton of shotgun/pistol. Bill Walsh hated the shotgun.

The NFL is a passing league now. You pass to score, you run to bleed the clock. You ever think about the reasons why we run alot? Harbaugh likes the running game, but he inherited a team with Alex Smith at QB, who wasnt going to be a Drew Brees type of guy. Then you get Kap in there, who was very raw. Kap doesnt attempt more than 30 passes each week because hes not ready yet. After his 412 yard game in week 1 against GB, Harbaugh tried letting him loose, and he couldnt handle it, so he went back to the conservative offense.

Once Kap is ready to be that 30-45 attempt guy, I think you see that. Especially with a healthy group of receivers. The NFL is a passing league, and the QB is almost the exclusive factor between being a winner or loser.

Still cant figure out why you relate the Bill Walsh system to not needing a great QB...Walsh's offense required impeccable timing...

Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:

Originally posted by Niners99:

We can have the best overall team in the NFL, but if we dont have a good QB to lead the way, were not winning a SB. Im not sure if youre trying to say we should let Kap leave instead of pay up? Look at all the bad teams in the NFL. What do they all have in common? They dont have a good QB. Look at all the good teams in the NFL. They all have good QB's.

The 12 playoff teams this year all had a top 15 QB. Rodgers, Brees, Kap, Wilson, Foles, Newton, Manning, Brady, Rivers, Luck, Dalton, Smith. It wasnt an accident.

The modern NFL requires a top flight QB to win titles. Look at the last 15 Super Bowls. Warner, Brady, Brady, Brady, Big Ben, Peyton, Eli, Big Ben, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Wilson. So 12 of the 15 years the winner had a top flight QB. Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Joe Flacco were the exceptions. Dilfer and Johnson had historically good defenses, and Flacco went on the tear of his career at the perfect time.

Unless we plan on having the best D of the era coming up here, were going to need a good QB, and Kap is well on his way to being that player. Its going to be expensive, but thats the cost of a franchise talent. If you get into the business of being cheap and trying to replace special players with drafted replacements, youre going to come out the loser.

Kap has the potential to be historically special. His size, speed, arm strength, mind, work ethic, and ability to handle big game pressure is an incredibly rare combination. The 49ers need to hold on tight to him, and they will.

Ask any front office in the NFL about how valuable a franchise QB is. Suggesting that its a good idea to try and win titles by spreading the cash around and just putting a competent QB behind center is lunacy to me. Youre banking on historically great defense at that point, which isnt realistic.

"top flight" =/= Top 15

Are you arguing Wilson is a Top 15 Quarterback? So is Flacco. So was Brad Johnson (identical career numbers to Troy Aikman). So 14 of the past 15 Super Bowl winning Quarterbacks were TOP 15 in the league.

Jim Harbaugh can draft and groom someone into a Top 15 Quarterback by next years playoffs. Are you arguing we should pay this player Flacco money ($20 million /year)

Outside the playoffs last year, Joe Flacco has been a TERRIBLE QB. Go look at his numbers. And 34 year old Brad Johnson in 2002 was NOT Troy Aikman. Stop trying to spin things in your favor.

And yes, I do think Russell Wilson is a top 15 QB. I think hes a top 10 QB. He played poorly down the stretch, but up until week 13 he was getting buzz about getting some MVP votes.

You dont replace QB's like Kap. Hes far too young with far too much physical, mental, and intangible abilities.

Not even sure why this argument is happening. If you went up to Jed York and said "Dont worry about signing Kap, we'll just replace him for cheaper", he would laugh in your face, and give you the condescending "ok...thanks for being a fan buddy".

We searched for a franchise QB for 13 years, and came up empty. Now we finally have a kid with serious potential, and you want to be a cheapo and try to replace him after 2 NFC title games in 2 seasons as a starter?

I really dont get our fanbase sometimes. No common sense...

Originally posted by Niners99:
Outside the playoffs last year, Joe Flacco has been a TERRIBLE QB. Go look at his numbers. And 34 year old Brad Johnson in 2002 was NOT Troy Aikman. Stop trying to spin things in your favor.

And yes, I do think Russell Wilson is a top 15 QB. I think hes a top 10 QB. He played poorly down the stretch, but up until week 13 he was getting buzz about getting some MVP votes.

You dont replace QB's like Kap. Hes far too young with far too much physical, mental, and intangible abilities.

Not even sure why this argument is happening. If you went up to Jed York and said "Dont worry about signing Kap, we'll just replace him for cheaper", he would laugh in your face, and give you the condescending "ok...thanks for being a fan buddy".

We searched for a franchise QB for 13 years, and came up empty. Now we finally have a kid with serious potential, and you want to be a cheapo and try to replace him after 2 NFC title games in 2 seasons as a starter?

I really dont get our fanbase sometimes. No common sense...

You make it sound like we are the New York Yankees. And Kaepernick will one day be Peyton Manning: able to single handily carry his team to the Super Bowl

There is no 1 single blueprint to an NFL championship. Committing the next decade to Colin while the offense around him declines isn't a wise business move. He will be 27 years old next season with glaring holes in his game.

Ultimately, price does make the difference in negotiations for me. Versus Aldon Smith who is a must.

Postseason Numbers
Flacco: 9-4 record, 1-2 in AFC Title Games
20 TDs (1 rushing) - 8 INTs
55% Completation
86.2 Passer Rating


Kaepernick: 4-2 record, 1-1 in NFC Title Games
11 TDs (4 rushing) - 5 INTs
58% Completation
87.3 Passer Rating

Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Outside the playoffs last year, Joe Flacco has been a TERRIBLE QB. Go look at his numbers. And 34 year old Brad Johnson in 2002 was NOT Troy Aikman. Stop trying to spin things in your favor.

And yes, I do think Russell Wilson is a top 15 QB. I think hes a top 10 QB. He played poorly down the stretch, but up until week 13 he was getting buzz about getting some MVP votes.

You dont replace QB's like Kap. Hes far too young with far too much physical, mental, and intangible abilities.

Not even sure why this argument is happening. If you went up to Jed York and said "Dont worry about signing Kap, we'll just replace him for cheaper", he would laugh in your face, and give you the condescending "ok...thanks for being a fan buddy".

We searched for a franchise QB for 13 years, and came up empty. Now we finally have a kid with serious potential, and you want to be a cheapo and try to replace him after 2 NFC title games in 2 seasons as a starter?

I really dont get our fanbase sometimes. No common sense...

You make it sound like we are the New York Yankees. And Kaepernick will one day be Peyton Manning: able to single handily carry his team to the Super Bowl

There is no 1 single blueprint to an NFL championship. Committing the next decade to Colin while the offense around him declines isn't a wise business move. He will be 27 years old next season with glaring holes in his game.

Ultimately, price does make the difference in negotiations for me. Versus Aldon Smith who is a must.

Ok so what is the alternative? Easy to claim committing to Kaep isn't a wise business move when you don't have to suggest an alternative.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Don't see the "WCO" being used by Harbaugh...yet alone "modernized." He runs a run first, power game which is about as far away from the WCO as you can get. I'm not sure why Harbaugh or others insist that his offense is a WCO off shoot, other than the obvious need to honor BW at Stanford and now the niners.

WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

Some of these may be a matter of QB development...or lack thereof...so far.

But besides that, exact same offense as Walsh. lol

The offense used by Harbaugh, at least in my opinion, is not the same as that used by Bill Walsh.

I do not really care. I do not think it makes any real difference.

Harbaugh and company must improve the offense, and the passing game in particular.

If the improvements are made, I do not care if the offense is WCO or not.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:

Originally posted by Niners99:
Outside the playoffs last year, Joe Flacco has been a TERRIBLE QB. Go look at his numbers. And 34 year old Brad Johnson in 2002 was NOT Troy Aikman. Stop trying to spin things in your favor.

And yes, I do think Russell Wilson is a top 15 QB. I think hes a top 10 QB. He played poorly down the stretch, but up until week 13 he was getting buzz about getting some MVP votes.

You dont replace QB's like Kap. Hes far too young with far too much physical, mental, and intangible abilities.

Not even sure why this argument is happening. If you went up to Jed York and said "Dont worry about signing Kap, we'll just replace him for cheaper", he would laugh in your face, and give you the condescending "ok...thanks for being a fan buddy".

We searched for a franchise QB for 13 years, and came up empty. Now we finally have a kid with serious potential, and you want to be a cheapo and try to replace him after 2 NFC title games in 2 seasons as a starter?

I really dont get our fanbase sometimes. No common sense...

You make it sound like we are the New York Yankees. And Kaepernick will one day be Peyton Manning: able to single handily carry his team to the Super Bowl

There is no 1 single blueprint to an NFL championship. Committing the next decade to Colin while the offense around him declines isn't a wise business move. He will be 27 years old next season with glaring holes in his game.

Ultimately, price does make the difference in negotiations for me. Versus Aldon Smith who is a must.

Ok so what is the alternative? Easy to claim committing to Kaep isn't a wise business move when you don't have to suggest an alternative.

Piece of cake . . . just go draft another kid and have him take over the team at a cheaper rate . . . just snap your fingers and, voila it's done.

Originally posted by buck:
The offense used by Harbaugh, at least in my opinion, is not the same as that used by Bill Walsh.

I do not really care. I do not think it makes any real difference.

Harbaugh and company must improve the offense, and the passing game in particular.

If the improvements are made, I do not care if the offense is WCO or not.

No, it doesn't matter except for personal preferences. Mine lean toward the WCO because I think it very smart and, if done well, successful. I would rather watch a WCO than the current one, probably because I don't see a fluid offense out there now...just a group of plays, one after another, with little continuity.

Originally posted by martysofresh:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Brees, Brady, Peyton have WON SUPER BOWLS. Of course they are evaluated in a different light. Kaep has proven he can't win the BIG GAME so far. What he does in the future who knows?

Manning won one superbowl. Manning now has the most playoff season losses in NFL history, so does that mean Manning cant win big games?

We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).

Correction: Kaepernick's team has "done more"

Brees took over a 5-11 Chargers team
Peyton took over a 3-13 Colts team
Brady took over a 5-11 Patriots team

Kaepernick took over a 13-3 49ers team that won the division and played in Overtime of the NFC Title Game

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
Piece of cake . . . just go draft another kid and have him take over the team at a cheaper rate . . . just snap your fingers and, voila it's done.

Isn't that exactly what Jim did with Kaepernick (2nd Round pick)

Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:

Piece of cake . . . just go draft another kid and have him take over the team at a cheaper rate . . . just snap your fingers and, voila it's done.

Isn't that exactly what Jim did with Kaepernick (2nd Round pick)

Clearly you haven't factored in development time and the high bust factor.

So....no.

Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).

Correction: Kaepernick's team has "done more"

Brees took over a 5-11 Chargers team
Peyton took over a 3-13 Colts team
Brady took over a 5-11 Patriots team

Kaepernick took over a 13-3 49ers team that won the division and played in Overtime of the NFC Title Game

You mean the same team that was 6-10 just a season and a half before that?

What do you get out of putting your own team down so much? Why cant you just be excited that we have a future at QB? If you have a good QB, you ALWAYS have a chance.

There are so many NFL teams that are desperately trying to make your strategy work, but fail because they cant find that franchise QB. You cant just spread things around to the whole team, and leave yourself weak at the most important position, and expect to win. The QB touches the ball on every single offensive play. Hes the most important player on the team, both from a skill standpoint, and a leadership standpoint.

Youve gone WAY too far down this argument road. Its a dead end that makes no sense. You can keep arguing about it, but its not how the NFL works.

Like I said, its useless to discuss this, because the 49ers ARE going to pay Kap. Its going to be expensive, but theyve built the team smart, and can afford it. Just accept the fact that the most important position will be making the most money for us.

I promise you that we are 100% satisfied with the QB position right now, and for the future. York, Baalke, Harbaugh, etc, all KNOW they found a gem, and he will be a key factor into helping us win a title for the next 7+ years.