Who's better? Willis or Aldon

Originally posted by VPofCarnage:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
BTW that is a ridiculous statement. Does that mean Von Miller is more valuable than willis or bowman? How about wake or Matthews?

THAT is laughable.

That's not laughable. Von Miller is absolutely more valuable than Willis. So is Wake. I don't know about Matthews the 'roid monkey though.

I think Miller of the 3 is the only one you could argue being as good or better than Willis because he is the most complete, but I don't agree.

Von Miller doesn't bring quite as much to a defense as Willis does.

There is no way that Wake is more valuable of a player than Willis. Wake might be more valuable to his team only because Pat has more talent surrounding him.
But do you really think the Dolphins GM wouldn't take Willis over wake? I gurantee he would make that trade in a heatbeat.

It's funny that you value Wake more than Matthews. Matthews is the highest paid linebacker in the league for a reason.

I think that statement was hilarious. He said that Aldon's passrushing ability alone makes him more valuable than Willis. Again that is a RIDICULOUS statement.

Originally posted by TheGhostofOak:

Originally posted by FunkNinerFlex:
I could argue with you that Haley in his prime is still better than Aldon is right now. When you think of the 49ers front 7, people can argue that Willis, Justin or Aldon is the key to their dominance. But with Haley, he's hands down the most dominant player you think of when he played in the 3-4 in SF or in the Dallas 4-3. Haley in his prime could string his moves together better and was double teamed more. Watching Haley in his prime, he just jumped off the screen. It shouldn't only be stats when you compare the 2 players. Haley's presence on field had to be accounted for on every down. Haley was the west coast version of LT.

Haley helped his team to 5 SB wins, and was the main factor on D in Dallas first 2 wins.

But Aldon is getting better every year. So in 2 or 3 more years if he keep improving like he is now, he'll be better than Haley in his prime.

I think there is a little "romaticizing of the past" going on here. While I agree that its not always about the stats, if you dont think Aldon "jumps off the screen," then you may need a new TV. Even when Aldon doesn't get the sack he's still disruptive.

No, there's no "romanticizing of the past". lol There's one thing I can do, is not be biased toward our players of the past or present.


Yes, Aldon is very good, but I don't think at quite the level Haley was.Yet. He's going to surpass him though in a couple of years, by the way he continues to improve.

By the way, Aldon does jump off the screen, but there were times where he just stood up and extended his arms and didn't do anything. Maybe he was supposed to contain the QB.

Originally posted by FunkNinerFlex:

No, there's no "romanticizing of the past". lol There's one thing I can do, is not be biased toward our players of the past or present.


Yes, Aldon is very good, but I don't think at quite the level Haley was.Yet. He's going to surpass him though in a couple of years, by the way he continues to improve.

By the way, Aldon does jump off the screen, but there were times where he just stood up and extended his arms and didn't do anything. Maybe he was supposed to contain the QB.

Haley had head problems to write home about. Hopefully Aldon remains relatively normal.

To me, this is a strange comparison because of the different demands of the positions. Willis, as the ILB, is a tackle-machine. His job is to stop plays everywhere. Aldon Smith rushes the passer and sets the edge.

And then when someone brings Von Miller into the equation and says he's more valuable than either of them, I have to wonder what he's talking about. Is Von Miller more valuable than Willis? Willis stopped almost twice as many plays with a tackle than did Miller (and Willis plays right next to another tackle-machine). Is Miller more valuable than A. Smith? Smith has more sacks in half as many starts (Miller - 30 sacks in two seasons every down; A. Smith - 33.5 sacks in two seasons, only one of which he is in every down). I know a lot people THINK Von Miller is more valuable, but to me the numbers don't support that - I think that when there is a difference of opinion, you need to fall back on the numbers.

Charles Haley? Great pass rusher. But, Haley only played spot duty in his first two seasons. In his third and fourth season, when he started every game, he had a total of 22 sacks. Aldon in his first two seasons - 33.5 sacks. So, I'm not sure what someone means when they say that Aldon Smith is "not quite the level Haley was."

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I think Miller of the 3 is the only one you could argue being as good or better than Willis because he is the most complete, but I don't agree.

Von Miller doesn't bring quite as much to a defense as Willis does.

There is no way that Wake is more valuable of a player than Willis. Wake might be more valuable to his team only because Pat has more talent surrounding him.
But do you really think the Dolphins GM wouldn't take Willis over wake? I gurantee he would make that trade in a heatbeat.

It's funny that you value Wake more than Matthews. Matthews is the highest paid linebacker in the league for a reason.

I think that statement was hilarious. He said that Aldon's passrushing ability alone makes him more valuable than Willis. Again that is a RIDICULOUS statement.

The "reason" Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he just recently signed it. Flacco is the highest paid QB in the league too. Wake is a better player than Matthews. That's not a knock on Matthews, but Wake is a terror.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I think Miller of the 3 is the only one you could argue being as good or better than Willis because he is the most complete, but I don't agree.

Von Miller doesn't bring quite as much to a defense as Willis does.

There is no way that Wake is more valuable of a player than Willis. Wake might be more valuable to his team only because Pat has more talent surrounding him.
But do you really think the Dolphins GM wouldn't take Willis over wake? I gurantee he would make that trade in a heatbeat.

It's funny that you value Wake more than Matthews. Matthews is the highest paid linebacker in the league for a reason.

I think that statement was hilarious. He said that Aldon's passrushing ability alone makes him more valuable than Willis. Again that is a RIDICULOUS statement.

The "reason" Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he just recently signed it. Flacco is the highest paid QB in the league too. Wake is a better player than Matthews. That's not a knock on Matthews, but Wake is a terror.

But Aldon is even better than either one of them. And at least Aldon & Wake are more valuable than the best ILB in the NFL. Pass rushers of that caliber are more valuable than anything else out there except QBs (including an all-pro' OLT). Maybe Calvin Johnson is more valuable, but it's rare to have a WR who's as much better than any other WR in the league as he is,

Cameron Wake, in his last season as straight linebacker (2011), had 37 tackles. Last season, while playing next to Bowman, Willis had 88 tackles.

Wake played DE in 2012. He had 15 sacks and 38 tackles. Aldon Smith had 19.5 sacks and 49 tackles.

I don't know about better but Aldon is more valuable to our defense simply because a dominant pass rusher is more valuable than a dominant ILB.

It's been said a million times that this is a "passing league" and for a D to be successful you have to pressure the QB. Good thing for us we have a young stud OLB who has more sacks in his first two seasons than anyone, ever, as well as the best ILB duo in the game right now.

Originally posted by VPofCarnage:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I think Miller of the 3 is the only one you could argue being as good or better than Willis because he is the most complete, but I don't agree.

Von Miller doesn't bring quite as much to a defense as Willis does.

There is no way that Wake is more valuable of a player than Willis. Wake might be more valuable to his team only because Pat has more talent surrounding him.
But do you really think the Dolphins GM wouldn't take Willis over wake? I gurantee he would make that trade in a heatbeat.

It's funny that you value Wake more than Matthews. Matthews is the highest paid linebacker in the league for a reason.

I think that statement was hilarious. He said that Aldon's passrushing ability alone makes him more valuable than Willis. Again that is a RIDICULOUS statement.

The "reason" Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he just recently signed it. Flacco is the highest paid QB in the league too. Wake is a better player than Matthews. That's not a knock on Matthews, but Wake is a terror.

No the reason Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he is a phenom. Yeah the fact that he was just recently signed plays into it as well but they wouldn't have signed him to a long term high money contract if they didn't think he was one of the top OLBs. Wake is a terror but IMO Matthews is better overall.

That's besides the point though because neither are as valuable as Willis IMO.

I just wish people would start appreciating how much Willis means to our team.

Originally posted by GNielsen:
To me, this is a strange comparison because of the different demands of the positions. Willis, as the ILB, is a tackle-machine. His job is to stop plays everywhere. Aldon Smith rushes the passer and sets the edge.

And then when someone brings Von Miller into the equation and says he's more valuable than either of them, I have to wonder what he's talking about. Is Von Miller more valuable than Willis? Willis stopped almost twice as many plays with a tackle than did Miller (and Willis plays right next to another tackle-machine). Is Miller more valuable than A. Smith? Smith has more sacks in half as many starts (Miller - 30 sacks in two seasons every down; A. Smith - 33.5 sacks in two seasons, only one of which he is in every down). I know a lot people THINK Von Miller is more valuable, but to me the numbers don't support that - I think that when there is a difference of opinion, you need to fall back on the numbers.

Charles Haley? Great pass rusher. But, Haley only played spot duty in his first two seasons. In his third and fourth season, when he started every game, he had a total of 22 sacks. Aldon in his first two seasons - 33.5 sacks. So, I'm not sure what someone means when they say that Aldon Smith is "not quite the level Haley was."

The only argument that one could make is that Haley for the most part created his own pressure. He didn't have a "Cowboy" to open the door for him.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Originally posted by VPofCarnage:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I think Miller of the 3 is the only one you could argue being as good or better than Willis because he is the most complete, but I don't agree.

Von Miller doesn't bring quite as much to a defense as Willis does.

There is no way that Wake is more valuable of a player than Willis. Wake might be more valuable to his team only because Pat has more talent surrounding him.
But do you really think the Dolphins GM wouldn't take Willis over wake? I gurantee he would make that trade in a heatbeat.

It's funny that you value Wake more than Matthews. Matthews is the highest paid linebacker in the league for a reason.

I think that statement was hilarious. He said that Aldon's passrushing ability alone makes him more valuable than Willis. Again that is a RIDICULOUS statement.

The "reason" Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he just recently signed it. Flacco is the highest paid QB in the league too. Wake is a better player than Matthews. That's not a knock on Matthews, but Wake is a terror.

No the reason Matthews is the highest paid LB in the league is because he is a phenom. Yeah the fact that he was just recently signed plays into it as well but they wouldn't have signed him to a long term high money contract if they didn't think he was one of the top OLBs. Wake is a terror but IMO Matthews is better overall.

That's besides the point though because neither are as valuable as Willis IMO.

I just wish people would start appreciating how much Willis means to our team.

Willis is to our defense what Magic was to the lakers. Not just an amazing player, but actually made the guys around him better too.

Originally posted by GNielsen:
To me, this is a strange comparison because of the different demands of the positions. Willis, as the ILB, is a tackle-machine. His job is to stop plays everywhere. Aldon Smith rushes the passer and sets the edge.

And then when someone brings Von Miller into the equation and says he's more valuable than either of them, I have to wonder what he's talking about. Is Von Miller more valuable than Willis? Willis stopped almost twice as many plays with a tackle than did Miller (and Willis plays right next to another tackle-machine). Is Miller more valuable than A. Smith? Smith has more sacks in half as many starts (Miller - 30 sacks in two seasons every down; A. Smith - 33.5 sacks in two seasons, only one of which he is in every down). I know a lot people THINK Von Miller is more valuable, but to me the numbers don't support that - I think that when there is a difference of opinion, you need to fall back on the numbers.

Charles Haley? Great pass rusher. But, Haley only played spot duty in his first two seasons. In his third and fourth season, when he started every game, he had a total of 22 sacks. Aldon in his first two seasons - 33.5 sacks. So, I'm not sure what someone means when they say that Aldon Smith is "not quite the level Haley was."

Great point Nielson. Willis still gets a lot of tackles next to the 2nd best or best ILB in the league depending on who you ask. Not only that but donte whitner and goldson were also tackling machines.

Just because we have other people on defense that are producing at a tremendously high level, that doesn't mean Willis is taking a back seat to them.

I realize how much our defense deteriorated last season after the smiths and others got injured but that doesn't mean they are any more valuable than Willis. Willis will probably go down as the GOAT when it's all said and done. Yes Aldon could be as well but Willis is a lot closer to GOAT than aldon is at this point.

Everybody is entitled to have his own opinion.

The 49er players expressed theirs. They decided that Aldon Smith was the team's most valuable player in 2012.

Aldon Smith named winner of the Bill Walsh Award

On Monday, Jim Harbaugh announced that Aldon Smith was voted by the players as the team's MVP and won the Bill Walsh award as a result. "Aldon Smith was named by the 49ers as the team MVP," said Harbaugh. "He is playing at a really high level and is important for our team."

In just his second year, Smith had 19.5 sacks in the regular season which passed Fred Dean's single-season franchise record. He broke Reggie White's record for the most sacks for a player in his first two years in the league totaling 33.5 sacks.

http://www.examiner.com/article/jim-harbaugh-says-aldon-smith-is-the-team-mvp-alex-smith-is-still-helping-out

I am pretty sure the 49er players have some idea of what they voted on.

Originally posted by Jakemall:
The only argument that one could make is that Haley for the most part created his own pressure. He didn't have a "Cowboy" to open the door for him.

Yes, but...

Haley had Kevin f*gan - a raging beast and at the time the strongest player in the NFL, who would absolutely crush two blockers at the same time. He also had Jim Burt or Michael Carter at NT and Pierce Holt on the other side. That was an awesome D-line.

And 9 of A.Smith's 19.5 sacks came without Justin Smith's help.

Originally posted by Jakemall:
The only argument that one could make is that Haley for the most part created his own pressure. He didn't have a "Cowboy" to open the door for him.

For all that is good and righteous on the earth, can we please stop with the fallacy that Aldon needs Justin to get sacks? As somone already pointed out in another thread, 9 of the 19.5 sacks Aldon had were on the opposite side of where Justin plays or Justin wasn't even in on the play. Does having an elite DE help Aldon? Of course. Does that mean Aldon isn't elite without Justin, certainly not. Watch the film, dude has a crazy motor and is relentless getting after the QB. If anyone, Cowboys play improved when Aldon was drafted and thats an undeniable fact!

With all due respect, of course...