Solution(s) to losing Crabs

Originally posted by 8749:
Brandon Lloyd is right there... it's so simple. Money is the question.

some things are not worth answering

My guess is different than your guess eonblue.

What we both agree on is needing reliable receivers to get back to the SB.

But I like your response because it raises an interesting, "Which came first, the chicken or egg?" question.

Who is more important in the equation QB -> WR = victory. 3 possibilities:
A) QB is more important
B) WR is more important
C) Equally important

We can throw C out because great QBs win no matter who is receiving. Look at Brett Farve beating us in 2010 with a strike to the endzone with a minute to play and 2 49er DBs within 4' of the receiver. We were the better team by far that day, controlled the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. It was just Farve's ability to dare to throw into very tight windows that was the difference in that game, not a great receiver. Greg Jennings is a good receiver, at least a reliable receiver +, but not a great receiver. Farve is going to Canton.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d812f33ea/WK-3-Can-t-Miss-Play-Favre-s-game-winner

With the same logic, I can throw out B. Is Reggie Wayne a 1000 yd/yr receiver for 4 years in a row, without Manning throwing to him? Naw.
And if there is any doubt, look at what happened to Denver's receivers last year with the acquisition of Manning. Now Eric Decker is a stud WR.

That leaves C. I remember late last season, Phil Simms commenting on a bullet Kaepernick threw down field. The window was small, 20+ yds downfield, but the ball arrived before the DB's could fully react. The WR was open just a little bit, but the ball was there before the DBs could turn. Simms, a connoisseur of QBs, portrayed that throw as "special". He went on to say everyone was commenting on Kaep's fabulous running ability, but what stood out for Simms was his throws. They were that good. Simms said:

"He may be the most dynamic quarterback in the NFL," Simms said. "His arm is not good, it's special. If you watch the San Francisco 49ers ever since he became quarterback, you see these throws every single week. It's not only the power. It's the accuracy. That's what has really startled me. He can throw it hard on a line, but his touch passes down the field have been spectacular … Forget the running, that arm alone is enough to make you a franchise quarterback."

Here is the link: http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/01/14/simms-on-kaepernick-that-arm-alone-is-enough-to-make-you-a-franchise-qb/

While Kaep hasn't played enough games to be considered great, his ability to do what Simms marvelled at will make average receivers look good, and good receivers look great. As proof, look at Crabtree's numbers with Smith and with Kaepernick last season. Crabtree's breakout came when Kaepernick threw to him.

Next season: "We'll Kaep you."

Do nothing.

He can't break down a DB one one at the goal line anyway.
His best plays are clear outs and throw underneath short of first down and let him get it.
He has moves but no seperation.

Why not just throw it 10 yards for the 1st down? Can't get open. YOu have to clear it out first.
Throw about 5 yards, pray hard as hell, hopefully he gets the rest.

The response to those who really think the team should bring in Brandon Lloyd:



Anquan Boldin and Michael Crabtree fight for any ball in their area. They WANT the ball. Lloyd? Who knows what he wants.

Originally posted by mebemused:
My guess is different than your guess eonblue.

What we both agree on is needing reliable receivers to get back to the SB.

But I like your response because it raises an interesting, "Which came first, the chicken or egg?" question.

Who is more important in the equation QB -> WR = victory. 3 possibilities:
A) QB is more important
B) WR is more important
C) Equally important

We can throw C out because great QBs win no matter who is receiving. Look at Brett Farve beating us in 2010 with a strike to the endzone with a minute to play and 2 49er DBs within 4' of the receiver. We were the better team by far that day, controlled the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. It was just Farve's ability to dare to throw into very tight windows that was the difference in that game, not a great receiver. Greg Jennings is a good receiver, at least a reliable receiver +, but not a great receiver. Farve is going to Canton.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-plays/09000d5d812f33ea/WK-3-Can-t-Miss-Play-Favre-s-game-winner

With the same logic, I can throw out B. Is Reggie Wayne a 1000 yd/yr receiver for 4 years in a row, without Manning throwing to him? Naw.
And if there is any doubt, look at what happened to Denver's receivers last year with the acquisition of Manning. Now Eric Decker is a stud WR.

That leaves C. I remember late last season, Phil Simms commenting on a bullet Kaepernick threw down field. The window was small, 20+ yds downfield, but the ball arrived before the DB's could fully react. The WR was open just a little bit, but the ball was there before the DBs could turn. Simms, a connoisseur of QBs, portrayed that throw as "special". He went on to say everyone was commenting on Kaep's fabulous running ability, but what stood out for Simms was his throws. They were that good. Simms said:

"He may be the most dynamic quarterback in the NFL," Simms said. "His arm is not good, it's special. If you watch the San Francisco 49ers ever since he became quarterback, you see these throws every single week. It's not only the power. It's the accuracy. That's what has really startled me. He can throw it hard on a line, but his touch passes down the field have been spectacular … Forget the running, that arm alone is enough to make you a franchise quarterback."

Here is the link: http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/01/14/simms-on-kaepernick-that-arm-alone-is-enough-to-make-you-a-franchise-qb/

While Kaep hasn't played enough games to be considered great, his ability to do what Simms marvelled at will make average receivers look good, and good receivers look great. As proof, look at Crabtree's numbers with Smith and with Kaepernick last season. Crabtree's breakout came when Kaepernick threw to him.

Next season: "We'll Kaep you."

First I'm not guessing. I think the stats support the production we can expect from the WR core. Which our WR core minus an injured manningham, crab, and williams and departed Moss, Walker doesnt have a receiver that crossed the 80 yard mark. Bruce Millar had 81 yards. Lol. Yea the things about what Simms said is it's all b******t. He's gushing. When Kaep struggles because he lost his #1 target and all he has is a bunch of wild cards that he has no chemistry with Simms isn't going to be there comfort us fans when we our team losses because we cant cross the 100yrd mark in passing. If you really wanted Kaep to succeed you would stop all this "We'll Kaep you" BS. It's to much pressure to put on the young kid in his first FULL season. The kid needs the tools to make it happen and at the moment were going to be starting the season with a WR core that has 0 yards and 0 catchs with him. I think we need a reliable #2 option for him. Not a big signing but a Moss or a Henderson. So we can make things easier on our golden boy. The thing about my guess opposed to your guess is if Kaep just starts blazing it with this group than we win the super bowl. Crab will come back and we will have a WR core that is just that much stronger. (which crab coming back and playing at his peak is something else entirely). Buuuuuut if maybe Kaep isn't Peyton Manning and all these rookies struggle against the nasty secondaries of the Hawks and Rams we may not make it out of division. We had trouble last year so I think were going to be wondering why we didn't try to reinforce the group when we have a chance. What worries me most is the fact Justin Smith and Frank Gore need a ring. They deserve a ring. I want the FO to do whatever they have to to make sure that happens. I want the closest thing to a guarantee you can get. Kaep isnt a guarantee and neither is the WR group. I realize you cant have a 100% but you can at least increase the chances with a veteran target for him to throw at.

Originally posted by GNielsen:

The response to those who really think the team should bring in Brandon Lloyd:



Anquan Boldin and Michael Crabtree fight for any ball in their area. They WANT the ball. Lloyd? Who knows what he wants.

He led the NFL in receiving yards with 1,448 yards for the 2010 season.

Originally posted by 8749:

Originally posted by GNielsen:

The response to those who really think the team should bring in Brandon Lloyd:



Anquan Boldin and Michael Crabtree fight for any ball in their area. They WANT the ball. Lloyd? Who knows what he wants.

He led the NFL in receiving yards. with 1,448 yards for the 2010 season.

Idk why people keep bringing that play up. Lloyd is a different player now then he was back then smh.

Originally posted by BMoore56:
Idk why people keep bringing that play up. Lloyd is a different player now then he was back then smh.

I don't know why people keep saying that. Didn't we all read why the Patriots didn't bring him back. The other players and the coaching staff didn't like his attitude on the practice field or during games. If he were as good as some people around here think, why didn't the Patriots want him back even though he told them he was willing to take a pay cut?

From NFL.com: "Lloyd didn't provide the vertical threat that the Patriots were hoping for, and there were reports that his erratic behavior was not a great fit in the locker room."

This Niner team is all about chemistry. It doesn't need Brandon Lloyd prancing around in the locker room talking about his bling. Hey, Bryant Young didn't like him. For a Niner fan, that should be the end of the argument.

Originally posted by mebemused:
My guess is different than your guess eonblue.

What we both agree on is needing reliable receivers to get back to the SB.

But I like your response because it raises an interesting, "Which came first, the chicken or egg?" question.

Who is more important in the equation QB -> WR = victory. 3 possibilities:
A) QB is more important
B) WR is more important
C) Equally important

1) The egg came first. Two things that were not chickens f**ked and laid a chicken egg.

2) You forgot coaching as an option.

Crabtree went from "good" with Alex Smith to "great" with Kaepernick. Vernon Davis went from "very good" with Alex Smith to "afterthought" with Kaepernick (until the playoffs). I don't understand why people praise Kaepernick for elevating Crabtree's game, but don't blame him for Davis' lack of production.

I think all options (QB, WR, coaching) are factors and each can help compensate for the others. However, I think that of the three, WR is least likely to be the determining factor in a winning formula. There are just too many examples of great QBs having success regardless of who is playing WR. There also seem to be many examples of great WRs continually producing, but failing to help win games or elevate the play of the QB. Calvin Johnson and Matt Stafford are the best example of this, IMO. Record breaking receiving numbers, but only 4 wins and Stafford didn't even complete 60% of his passes. The other extreme is Larry Fitzgerald... the Cardinal's QB play was so inept that Larry Fitzgerald had the worst season of his career.

Perfect solution to losing craps . Shave your pubs

Originally posted by Wodwo:
1) The egg came first. Two things that were not chickens f**ked and laid a chicken egg.

2) You forgot coaching as an option.

Crabtree went from "good" with Alex Smith to "great" with Kaepernick. Vernon Davis went from "very good" with Alex Smith to "afterthought" with Kaepernick (until the playoffs). I don't understand why people praise Kaepernick for elevating Crabtree's game, but don't blame him for Davis' lack of production.

I think all options (QB, WR, coaching) are factors and each can help compensate for the others. However, I think that of the three, WR is least likely to be the determining factor in a winning formula. There are just too many examples of great QBs having success regardless of who is playing WR. There also seem to be many examples of great WRs continually producing, but failing to help win games or elevate the play of the QB. Calvin Johnson and Matt Stafford are the best example of this, IMO. Record breaking receiving numbers, but only 4 wins and Stafford didn't even complete 60% of his passes. The other extreme is Larry Fitzgerald... the Cardinal's QB play was so inept that Larry Fitzgerald had the worst season of his career.

No, I didn't forget coaching as an option. For the purpose of my argument, I focused on QBs vs WRs, because eonblue finds all our current receivers unreliable, hence wants to sign a veteran inorder to get Justin Smith his SB ring. (I hope he gets a ring this year too!)

And thank you for adding Larry Fitzgeralds's abysmal last season without an adequate QB as yet another example of how QBs are more important that Wrs.

Now, if you want to add coaching into the equation, than I totally agree with you that developing schemes that showcase player strengths is what makes the difference with evenly talented rosters, (the upcoming Seahawk vs 49er games should be a coaching showcase.)

I think replacing Crabs will be a showcase for the 49er coaching staff, given the lack of production from all the remaining receivers, including rookies, that eonblue so ably pointed out. Trading for Bolden, Crab's replacement, is already paying off big time. For the rest, the coaching staff will have to compensate by isolating non-productive, (up to this point) players, one-on-one, through play calling. Let's get LMJ more touches on passing plays! And Kaep will have to learn to distribute the ball. That is what training camp is for.

Thanks for adding the coaching staff to the equation. Especially with training camp still to come.

Originally posted by mebemused:
No, I didn't forget coaching as an option. For the purpose of my argument, I focused on QBs vs WRs, because eonblue finds all our current receivers unreliable, hence wants to sign a veteran inorder to get Justin Smith his SB ring. (I hope he gets a ring this year too!)

And thank you for adding Larry Fitzgeralds's abysmal last season without an adequate QB as yet another example of how QBs are more important that Wrs.

Now, if you want to add coaching into the equation, than I totally agree with you that developing schemes that showcase player strengths is what makes the difference with evenly talented rosters, (the upcoming Seahawk vs 49er games should be a coaching showcase.)

I think replacing Crabs will be a showcase for the 49er coaching staff, given the lack of production from all the remaining receivers, including rookies, that eonblue so ably pointed out. Trading for Bolden, Crab's replacement, is already paying off big time. For the rest, the coaching staff will have to compensate by isolating non-productive, (up to this point) players, one-on-one, through play calling. Let's get LMJ more touches on passing plays! And Kaep will have to learn to distribute the ball. That is what training camp is for.

Thanks for adding the coaching staff to the equation. Especially with training camp still to come.

I don't want to sign a vet because I think it means when win the SB. I think it's smart and if you calculate the production of the WR on the roster it seems like an obvious move. I think your putting alot of pressure on rookies and a QB that hasn't even started a full season. With that being said he has camps and preseason to develop chemistry so maybe it doesn't matter. If AJ Jenkins was any inclination of this showcasing you speak of I don't feel very confidant. I hope your right tho. You probably are. I bet the coaching staff is working non stop training Kaep to run the offense. I think it would run better with another vet though.

my solution to losing crabs is to drink heavily.

Kaepernick relied on Crabtree too much last year. I understand that may have been necessary given the loss of Manningham and Williams, but it became one of the reasons the 9ers lost the Super Bowl. At the goal line Crabtree was taken away and CK had trouble...tried to fit it in anyway...when a more experienced QB may have been able to find an open VD, or young WR. Doesn't bother me because no other QB I know of would have made some of the runs Kaepernick made, just part of the deal when you have a young QB. But the close relationship CK built with MC may have been part of the problem--too much reliance on him or giving him the targets he wants is a slippery slope for any QB/WR relationship...can be detrimental to other relationships.

This is why I have said the loss of Crabtree may be a blessing in disguise. It may force CK to build a rapport with others and when Crabtree comes back he will need to fit into the mix. He may still be "The guy" for CK but Boldin, Jenkins, and others may make it necessary to spread the ball more.

I want to examine the whole notion of Kaepernick "relying too much on Crabtree" or Kaepernick being "forced to use someone other than Crabtree" as having legitimacy.

To begin with, we have to agree with the underlying assumption that Kaeperpick is intrinsically a FOOTBALL PLAYER. As opposed to a guy whose "playing" football. He's fearless on the field. I don't mean that in the heroic sense, but rather to say that he's a gamer, he's highly instinctive and not prone to being reduced to fear or "freezing up" when things don't play out the way they are drawn up on the blackboard. It's a sandlot player mentality, an attitude that Walsh termed "athletic instincts". Something he deemed essential to play QB at the highest level. Montana had that in spades.

Not all QBs have that. You can be great in the classroom and practice field and be serviceable, but unless you have that "instinct" you're not going to consistently "carry" the team when the chips are down. Kaepernick has that "instinct" and I believe that in his short tenure as the starter he has demonstrated that. If you don't agree with this assessment, then there's not point in reading further.

I don't think that Kaepernick has any problems with going through a progression of "reads". We've seen him do it; go through a four step progression, for instance (not necessarily a good thing). The implication of saying that Kaeprnick "relies too much" or "now he'll have to look to other receivers" is that Kaepernick ignores or abandons his reads and just focuses on Crabtree. These are throw away criticisms that ignore the reality of what is happening on the field.

Two thing happen when a QB drops back to throw:
1. He has time to go through his progressions in the pocket, or
2. He doesn't have time to go through his progressions.

1. If he has time, he goes through his reads and throws to the first "open" guy. This includes "throwing a receiver open", which "instinctive" receivers will do all the time, but is more difficult for others who will often want to see that the receiver is open before throwing the ball. It's important to note that the QB doesn't necessarily go through all the reads before throwing. If his first read is "open" he throws the ball.

Kaepernick was often asked: "Why do you thow to Crabtree so much?". His response: "Because he's open". Not: "Because I like throwing to him"; which is what those of you criticizing him are saying. What's he supposed to do? Not throw to his first open read just to satisfy the critics (who'll always have something to criticize anyway)?

Has Kaepernick ever thrown to other receivers? Sure he has. When the reads warranted. With mixed results. Alligator arms Moss. Dropsies Delanie. Very small window Vernon. The Niners receiver options were severely depleted last year when Manningham and Williams (and Hunter) went out remember. Pretty much Crabtree was the only RELIABLE receiver.

All of this becomes: "he relies on Crabtree too much" or "he needs to learn how to find other receivers" (even if they are not, nor ever will be, open). Come on, guys!

2. If he doesn't have time to go thorugh his progression, he improvises. He either takes off and runs if there is an opportunity, or he makes the best of a bad situation, or he gets sacked. Sometimes you just cannot avoid the sack. IMO Kaepernick is very good at avoiding the sack, which means he resorts to the other two options. Usually with good results.

Kaepernick has been criticized for making that last throw in the SB. It's been said that he "forced" the throw, he should "have been able to find an open VD". Sure, it was a painful sequence to watch because the result was so undesirable, but you have to actually watch what happened before pointing the fingure. On that lst play (actually the last two plays) an unblocked pass rusher (who should have been pick up by the RB) came through unimpeded. THERE WAS NO TIME TO GO THROUGH THE READS. With an "experienced" QB that's a sack; when the QB looks disgusted and slams the ground with the football. Kaepernick went to his first read and threw him open. Remember, this is all happening in a split second. Bad decision? I don't think so. He went to his first read and most reliable receiver. I disagree that Crabtree was "taken away". He was subsequently HELD, otherwise he probably makes that catch. Had Kaepernick known that Crabtree would be held, he probably shortens the throw, but how was he to know that? A lot of bad things happened on that play. Uncalled penalties. And a few players fell down on the job. Unblocked rushers.

It's good for the QB to deveop a rapport will ALL of his receivers. But it takes two to tango. I'm sure Kaepernick threw to a lot of receivers in practice, trying to develop that rapport. But in game situations there was really only one who consistently came through, while others faltered. And in a crisis, who you gonna call? Some people make it sound like it's all Kaepernick's fault that all of his options are not showing up.

This season, hopefully, some othe WRs beside Boldin emerge. Otherwise it'll be: "Kaepernick relies on Boldin too much" . . . BTW didn't Flacco do that?