49ers Rudimentary Pass Offense

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Just curious. I know that he told the on the field reporter during the Seattle game that "they'd simplified the calls," but I did not know he took over the playcalling at Seattle.

How do you know that he "visibly took over the playcallikng in the second half" of the last two games?

I'm surprised the media didn't comment on it other than on the radio. If you pay attention, you can see Harbaugh holding a play chart out and visibly making the calls, I've seen him do it a few times before, especially last year, but it really got going in the 2nd half of the Seattle game, whereas in the first half he was simply walking around like normal. The Cardinals game started the same way....and then he started going for the chart more in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. By the time the 4th quarter came around, he wasn't doing it anymore.


I think what's happening is that he's been enforcing his veto power on calls more often ever since that option play against the Rams. When the playcalling doesn't go well, he appears to be pulling the hook on Roman and taking over.

Interesting. I see him with his play chart all the time, and frequently he holds it over his face to keep anyone from reading his lips. But whether he's just talking to his coaches or calling plays never occurred to me. I will have to watch that more closely.

Now I don't know if Jim has taken over play calling or not, I'm not privy to that type of information. But if you're only basing that assumption off of him holding the play chart, as oldninerdude stated, Jim frequently has the play chart out and I often times see him using it to cover his lips while speaking into the headset. I actually can't really recall watching a game where they don't show at least a few shots of him doing this.

I am no expert on offense ( X's and O's), just going by what I have seen over 40 years of watching football.

I think the offense needs to be better in the red zone, especially inside the ten yard line. The offense needs to be better on 3rd down. Keeping our defense fresh is a huge key, because if they are fresh and can dominate, the Niners chance of winning goes way up. ie winning the time of posession.

Gore runs well because he is so patient and can find the littlest of holes, then he breaks out. However inside the ten yard line, that advantage disappears. I think a spread offense inside the ten would work well with one back, you actually have two if you count kaep--who can run or pass. I'd have Davis, walker, crabs, Moss spread out with Gore or LMJ behind kaep--no jumbo sets. This is sort of how the Pats do their red zone.

Another area the Niners can improve is the pass offense is using the TE and RB's more in the passing game--again like the Pats do. These would be the 8-12 yard passes up the middle --simple passes that move the chains. Passing to the running back is classic west coast offense. Roger Craig had over 1,000 yards receiving a few times. Ricky Watters was great for a couple years catching passes. These players at times had 8 to 10 receptions in a single game. I think incorporating these areas will open up the run and deep passing even more, keep the chains moving, and make our defense even better.

Originally posted by KegBert:
Now I don't know if Jim has taken over play calling or not, I'm not privy to that type of information. But if you're only basing that assumption off of him holding the play chart, as oldninerdude stated, Jim frequently has the play chart out and I often times see him using it to cover his lips while speaking into the headset. I actually can't really recall watching a game where they don't show at least a few shots of him doing this.

I wasn't referring to him just holding it, I was referring to him reading off of it and talking furiously into his microphone. Go back to the 2nd half of the Seattle game or mid 2nd quarter of yesterday and there were camera shots of him doing it, while in the 1st and 4th he was simply holding on to it or using it to cover his mouth.

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
I am no expert on offense ( X's and O's), just going by what I have seen over 40 years of watching football.

I think the offense needs to be better in the red zone, especially inside the ten yard line. The offense needs to be better on 3rd down. Keeping our defense fresh is a huge key, because if they are fresh and can dominate, the Niners chance of winning goes way up. ie winning the time of posession.

Gore runs well because he is so patient and can find the littlest of holes, then he breaks out. However inside the ten yard line, that advantage disappears. I think a spread offense inside the ten would work well with one back, you actually have two if you count kaep--who can run or pass. I'd have Davis, walker, crabs, Moss spread out with Gore or LMJ behind kaep--no jumbo sets. This is sort of how the Pats do their red zone.

Another area the Niners can improve is the pass offense is using the TE and RB's more in the passing game--again like the Pats do. These would be the 8-12 yard passes up the middle --simple passes that move the chains. Passing to the running back is classic west coast offense. Roger Craig had over 1,000 yards receiving a few times. Ricky Watters was great for a couple years catching passes. These players at times had 8 to 10 receptions in a single game. I think incorporating these areas will open up the run and deep passing even more, keep the chains moving, and make our defense even better.

More screens and slants. One thing that has suffered with Kaepernick in there is the short passing game. Alex used to get the ball to guys like Miller for 6 or 7 yards at a time, that's something I'd like to see Kaepernick improve on as the deep ball isn't typically very reliable. The 49ers have weapons but they are not being utilized to their full capacity. I think some bright offensive minds could find much more productive ways to incorporate a major weapon like VD into the gameplan on a regular and consistent basis. He should have the ball going to him 6 or 7 times a game.

Roman is highly touted for a reason. He employs a balanced offense. We're not a sprad offense like GB and NE. The passing game is fine.

Originally posted by Afrikan:
So if Roman is not showing improvement....and he is not selected to be a coach somewhere...will Harbs make a change at OC?

I think he would.....some feel that he jaded Alex and it was personal, but that just seems how Harbaugh is...if he doesn't see improvement out of a position, with legit reasons taking into consideration...he will move on.

Harbaugh has been with Roman for a while now...if he comes to the conclusion that Roman can't evolve in the NFL...yeah I see it happening.


yes yes, but David Akers.... well I think varies by position and situation...with a kicker, you have to be careful. Its not like you have backups that you constantly were coaching.

Honestly i dont even think it's that deep. Harbaugh is a great coach, i just think he has more win now, and less future of thinking. So honestly i think on any given day if he feels you may play better, even if no evidence he's just gonna go with his gut. What has most of us said, it's been working for him soo far.

I aint knocking coach, cuz s**t i was one of the ones that wanted him too, and im behind coach until he's no longer here. But i will say that it's not trust lost from the team. I think they know that the only thing they can trust, is that if they get injured and the replacement plays bettter, than u may be replaced.

If that wasnt the case, then he wouldnt of stuck with Akers soo long by this time. I mean you cant say that Akers hasnt been stinking it up for like half this season. So thats why i didnt go with the improvement theory. Akers was declining all year, but managed to ride it all the way till the end of the season. And only now is coach (maybe gonna adress the issue)

Originally posted by strickac:
Roman is highly touted for a reason. He employs a balanced offense. We're not a sprad offense like GB and NE. The passing game is fine.

Singletary was highly touted at one point in time too. Most of the Roman hype comes from outside media, you've had local media criticizing him fairly regularly this season. i'm just hoping that his crazy gimmicks sucker in at least one team, either college or NFL, to commit to him and make him their head coach.


In regards to the running game, he's very knowledgeable, I'd say extremely knowledgeable but he relies too much on gimmicks and is not a natural playcaller. As far as the passing game goes, his playcalling is about as exciting as Jimmy Raye's was, maybe even less.

Interesting comments. I tend to come down on Phoenix49ers side, the 9er offense is inconsistent and suffers from a fundamental lack of robust pass options, robust pass/play design. It's hard to quantify just watching TV. But there seems to be an inability to find ways to get the ball into the hands of VD and FG that is telling.

Ghostof FD -- If you've been around as long as I have, you've seen what dominating, consistent 9er offenses have done in the past. And I think you can feel that this iteration isn't really measuring up, regarless of stats. The big play is not a substitute for consistent downfield progress. Remember, this offense is playing in conjunction with a very solid D. They get the ball *a lot*. In good field position. They are rarely if ever behind by 2 scores. SO, you can look at numbers like 11th in league in total yards and think perhaps that is underachiving for a team that is (by record) top 5.

The other stats paint a rosy picture, admittedly. But I need to think about them more. Rather than averages and totals, it might be telling to try and look at distributions. I suspect if you did, the 9er performance would be shown to be more variant than other upper echelon teams.

Where did you get the stats? ESPN? thanks for the data.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
I am no expert on offense ( X's and O's), just going by what I have seen over 40 years of watching football.

I think the offense needs to be better in the red zone, especially inside the ten yard line. The offense needs to be better on 3rd down. Keeping our defense fresh is a huge key, because if they are fresh and can dominate, the Niners chance of winning goes way up. ie winning the time of posession.

Gore runs well because he is so patient and can find the littlest of holes, then he breaks out. However inside the ten yard line, that advantage disappears. I think a spread offense inside the ten would work well with one back, you actually have two if you count kaep--who can run or pass. I'd have Davis, walker, crabs, Moss spread out with Gore or LMJ behind kaep--no jumbo sets. This is sort of how the Pats do their red zone.

Another area the Niners can improve is the pass offense is using the TE and RB's more in the passing game--again like the Pats do. These would be the 8-12 yard passes up the middle --simple passes that move the chains. Passing to the running back is classic west coast offense. Roger Craig had over 1,000 yards receiving a few times. Ricky Watters was great for a couple years catching passes. These players at times had 8 to 10 receptions in a single game. I think incorporating these areas will open up the run and deep passing even more, keep the chains moving, and make our defense even better.

More screens and slants. One thing that has suffered with Kaepernick in there is the short passing game. Alex used to get the ball to guys like Miller for 6 or 7 yards at a time, that's something I'd like to see Kaepernick improve on as the deep ball isn't typically very reliable. The 49ers have weapons but they are not being utilized to their full capacity. I think some bright offensive minds could find much more productive ways to incorporate a major weapon like VD into the gameplan on a regular and consistent basis. He should have the ball going to him 6 or 7 times a game.

I think you're both on to something there. Looking at the issue with the widest possible lens, I think it's fair to say the team has become pretty good at stretching the field depth-wise, but it doesn't seem to invest much interest in stretching the field laterally.

Think about how we use the space between the tackle and the wide out: the bulk of our plays to this area are either sweeps (this is why Hunter's injury really hurts), or passes to the sideline. We reliably toss a swing route or two each game, and a few counters but that's about it. Reverses were pretty routine last year and at the start of this season, but they've fallen out of favor of late. We saw the odd slant in October, followed by a few screens and a bubble screen or two in November. But that's about it, outside of gadget stuff.

The point being, we seem to be neglecting an important part of the field at present. I'm not pulling an Andy Reid and suggesting that screens will solve world hunger. Far from it, but I do think that we need to start utilizing this area of the field. Doing so is bound to soften the box, and that's something that we can brutally exploit. But we've gotta set it up first.

Remember we are running a run oriented WCO, so while I agree that the passing game seems basic, some of that is by design. The 5 yard routes you showed looks to me like an extension of the run. But we also need to understand that this offense was originally geared for a QB that didn't throw the deep ball very often. IMO the deep passing game seems to be developing on the fly, leading to errors like moss and DW only feet apart, or receivers drawing coverage into the vicinity of the intended target.

This is also why I agreed with the QB switch... If we know who is gonna be the future then actual game film will help evolve this offense compared to training camp practices and minicamps. The staff now knows what kap is capable of and can gear this offense to suit him over the offseason, without giving much up this year as we have seen.

How many of you seen all our Super Bowl teams play?

Let me post a reminder here for those who may have missed watching these teams. Go back and look at the films. The 49ers SB teams all had dominating offenses with Montana & Young hiting Rice Taylor & TE Brent Jones in stride on quick slants and deep routes for excel YAC. Roman's passing offense and WR routes and plays are not even in the same league. And as another poster pointed out Roger Craig changed the game for RB's catching passes out of the backfield for over 1,000 yards several times. Roman's offense doesn't run screens and doesn't get the ball to Gore out of the backfield or to our TE Davis. And as Jerry Rice said last year "we practised our red zone offense all the time and hard". Again...Roman's red zone offense is a joke when comparing to our SB teams.

So to those of you singing Roman's praise i ain't buying what your selling.

Oh and ya Roman is highly coveted allright just like the 7 NFL HC's were who got fired yesterday once were as well.lol Roman would be an absolutely disaster as an NFL HC because he lacks skill at making game in progress adjustments.

When i watch Roman's offense over the last 2 years it is blatantly obvious our 3rd down conversion and red zone offense sucks. Harbaugh has been calling more plays. This is another sign Roman is failing. 49ers need to upgrade their OC Norv Turner is on the market.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Singletary was highly touted at one point in time too. Most of the Roman hype comes from outside media, you've had local media criticizing him fairly regularly this season. i'm just hoping that his crazy gimmicks sucker in at least one team, either college or NFL, to commit to him and make him their head coach.


In regards to the running game, he's very knowledgeable, I'd say extremely knowledgeable but he relies too much on gimmicks and is not a natural playcaller. As far as the passing game goes, his playcalling is about as exciting as Jimmy Raye's was, maybe even less.

Singletary was never praised for his knowledge, scheming, or preparation. He was passionate and well respected by players.

We are 11th total offense and average 6.0 yds/play (3rd in the NFL). With the 2nd ranked defense, that's a good formula for success. Saying our passing game is boring like Raye's offense is just crazy. Roman uses tons of formation sets and is incorporating the pistol and read-option. That's so far beyond Raye's smash mouth football. It may not seem like it, but we have one of the better offenses in the league. Having a kicker that actually made FGs would help reflect that better on the scoreboard. We attack deep more often this year (with Kaepernick) than any time in the past 7 or 8 years, if not longer.

Originally posted by SkyGod:
How many of you seen all our Super Bowl teams play?

Let me post a reminder here for those who may have missed watching these teams. Go back and look at the films. The 49ers SB teams all had dominating offenses with Montana & Young hiting Rice Taylor & TE Brent Jones in stride on quick slants and deep routes for excel YAC. Roman's passing offense and WR routes and plays are not even in the same league. And as another poster pointed out Roger Craig changed the game for RB's catching passes out of the backfield for over 1,000 yards several times. Roman's offense doesn't run screens and doesn't get the ball to Gore out of the backfield or to our TE Davis. And as Jerry Rice said last year "we practised our red zone offense all the time and hard". Again...Roman's red zone offense is a joke when comparing to our SB teams.

So to those of you singing Roman's praise i ain't buying what your selling.

Oh and ya Roman is highly coveted allright just like the 7 NFL HC's were who got fired yesterday once were as well.lol Roman would be an absolutely disaster as an NFL HC because he lacks skill at making game in progress adjustments.

When i watch Roman's offense over the last 2 years it is blatantly obvious our 3rd down conversion and red zone offense sucks. Harbaugh has been calling more plays. This is another sign Roman is failing. 49ers need to upgrade their OC Norv Turner is on the market.

I don't think anyone is truly worried about losing him, actually most would be happy to see him go so we can replace him with someone that has more exp calling plays. The running game is great under roman. The passing attack no so much, but it seems to be improving that could be do to kap or that might be jim calling the passing plays he likes and veto the play roman calls. Again Roman is only in his second year as a Oc ever, if he's leaving for a headcoach it won't be tell after teh playoffs and mostlikely a college team, this isn't a top 5 offense were talking about here. Until than im not worried about a nfl team taking him until that happens.

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
I don't think anyone is truly worried about losing him, actually most would be happy to see him go so we can replace him with someone that has more exp calling plays. The running game is great under roman. The passing attack no so much, but it seems to be improving that could be do to kap or that might be jim calling the passing plays he likes and veto the play roman calls. Again Roman is only in his second year as a Oc ever, if he's leaving for a headcoach it won't be tell after teh playoffs and mostlikely a college team, this isn't a top 5 offense were talking about here. Until than im not worried about a nfl team taking him until that happens.

Norv. Think about it.

Originally posted by SkyGod:
How many of you seen all our Super Bowl teams play?

Let me post a reminder here for those who may have missed watching these teams. Go back and look at the films. The 49ers SB teams all had dominating offenses with Montana & Young hiting Rice Taylor & TE Brent Jones in stride on quick slants and deep routes for excel YAC. Roman's passing offense and WR routes and plays are not even in the same league. And as another poster pointed out Roger Craig changed the game for RB's catching passes out of the backfield for over 1,000 yards several times. Roman's offense doesn't run screens and doesn't get the ball to Gore out of the backfield or to our TE Davis. And as Jerry Rice said last year "we practised our red zone offense all the time and hard". Again...Roman's red zone offense is a joke when comparing to our SB teams.

So to those of you singing Roman's praise i ain't buying what your selling.

Oh and ya Roman is highly coveted allright just like the 7 NFL HC's were who got fired yesterday once were as well.lol Roman would be an absolutely disaster as an NFL HC because he lacks skill at making game in progress adjustments.

When i watch Roman's offense over the last 2 years it is blatantly obvious our 3rd down conversion and red zone offense sucks. Harbaugh has been calling more plays. This is another sign Roman is failing. 49ers need to upgrade their OC Norv Turner is on the market.

Yes, getting the ball to TE and RB(Gore) has been deficient under Roman. Walker catches long ball, but there is no Rudolph-style production in this scheme. Seems like a hole. Maybe there are extenuating circumstances that we don't know about. But, otherwise, it's just a hole in the game plan.