vernon davis jumping on deep pass routes

Originally posted by Niners99:
lol, notice what the common factor on that list is? high level QB. Brady, Brees, Stafford, Romo, Ryan. and Kellen Winslow is NOT better than Vernon Davis.

if you put Vernon Davis on the Saints, hes the best TE in the NFL by a mile.

Dont get me wrong, i like Alex Smith, but hes not the kind of QB that elevates pass catchers numbers to the elite level. So much of being a productive TE is how much your QB looks to you. often times youll see Jason Witten become a blocker for an entire game. other times, hes a pro bowl receiving TE. you cant just point to Gronkowski and say hes better because of this season. Belichick calls a brilliant offensive gameplan, and a HOF QB throws the ball 40-50 times a game. he has to be good, but hes benefiting from the system.

you have to look at each TE and say "would they be BETTER than Davis in his place on the 49ers? or, would Davis be able to do as well as they do if he played on their team instead of SF".

VD would at least match or exceed every one of those TE if he took their place on those teams, and its hard for me to beleive any of those guys would outperform Davis in our current offense scheme.

Im usually down on VD because of his knack for penalties and drops, but in this case I think its unfair to call those TE better.

were talking about a 6'3, 250 lb. guy who benches 465 lbs. and runs a 4.38 forty. hes easily the most gifted TE in football, and in a more pass friendly offense he would be Antonio Gates in his prime.

Of the TEs listed, Rob Gronkowski is definitely better. Tony G in his prime was better (not now) and Jimmy Graham is a tie IMO. The other ones aren't as good.

Originally posted by Niners99:
lol, notice what the common factor on that list is? high level QB. Brady, Brees, Stafford, Romo, Ryan. and Kellen Winslow is NOT better than Vernon Davis.

if you put Vernon Davis on the Saints, hes the best TE in the NFL by a mile.

Dont get me wrong, i like Alex Smith, but hes not the kind of QB that elevates pass catchers numbers to the elite level. So much of being a productive TE is how much your QB looks to you. often times youll see Jason Witten become a blocker for an entire game. other times, hes a pro bowl receiving TE. you cant just point to Gronkowski and say hes better because of this season. Belichick calls a brilliant offensive gameplan, and a HOF QB throws the ball 40-50 times a game. he has to be good, but hes benefiting from the system.

you have to look at each TE and say "would they be BETTER than Davis in his place on the 49ers? or, would Davis be able to do as well as they do if he played on their team instead of SF".

VD would at least match or exceed every one of those TE if he took their place on those teams, and its hard for me to beleive any of those guys would outperform Davis in our current offense scheme.

Im usually down on VD because of his knack for penalties and drops, but in this case I think its unfair to call those TE better.

were talking about a 6'3, 250 lb. guy who benches 465 lbs. and runs a 4.38 forty. hes easily the most gifted TE in football, and in a more pass friendly offense he would be Antonio Gates in his prime.

I agree in general with your post, but see different abilities each TE has that make them valuable. Guys like Gronkowski and Graham are tall and are able to go up and take balls away from DBs. VD seldom does this. For a very strong guy who blocks like a mack truck, he is not a physical receiver. I like VD and would not want to trade him for either of these guys but I would add either to this team in a heartbeat for their unique abilities.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
how is it some people here think VD doesn't have agility? Isn't agility the rate of change of speed? He has the unique ability to shift gears for someone his size, giving him a competitive advantage over both CBs and esp LBs, whichever have the dubious distinction of covering him. Not sure what these posters are seeing that I'm not.

They overanalyze him. He's one of the best TE's in the leauge. But they think he is TEH SSUUUXXOOORRSSS....


2009: 965 yards, 13 TD's.

2010: 914 yards, 7 TD's.

2011: 792 yards, 6 TD's. (double coverage in every game in 2011)

3 years total = 2,671 yards, 26 TD's.

3 year average = 890.33 yards per year, 8.67 TD's per year.

That's TEH SSUUUXXOOORRSSS... Wish we had a good TE.

Perspective. TWO TE broke records this year, one was a 2nd year player. I noticed this was remarkably absent from your list of stats:

Drops: 18t Vernon Davis SF 6

Clutch TE statistically better than Davis are:

Jimmy Graham
Rob Gronkowski
Brandon Pettigrew
Tony Gonzalez
Aaron Hernandez
Jason Witten
Kellen Winslow

The point I'm making here is that saying he's the best TE in the league anymore and actually seeing the stats are two different things ....

If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.

Originally posted by Shaj:
If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.

I'll bet if he has Smith as a QB he would have been in the Pro Bowl in 2009...oh, wait! That was in the Raye offense...whahoo! I'll bet if he has Smith as his QB in 2010 he would have had more yards than all but one TE...oh, wait!

VD hasn't suffered playing with Smith, they are in sync. This year he blocked more than in the past and I'm not sure even Rodgers could have completed many passes to a blocker.

Will be a tight end heavy game !

My biggest nitpick with Vernon is that he goes down extremely easily for such a strong guy. His YAC all comes from speed. It doesn't matter who is throwing you the football after the catch and that is where I feel he could improve the most. Gronk is a great example of shedding tacklers.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.

I'll bet if he has Smith as a QB he would have been in the Pro Bowl in 2009...oh, wait! That was in the Raye offense...whahoo! I'll bet if he has Smith as his QB in 2010 he would have had more yards than all but one TE...oh, wait!

VD hasn't suffered playing with Smith, they are in sync. This year he blocked more than in the past and I'm not sure even Rodgers could have completed many passes to a blocker.

VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.

I'll bet if he has Smith as a QB he would have been in the Pro Bowl in 2009...oh, wait! That was in the Raye offense...whahoo! I'll bet if he has Smith as his QB in 2010 he would have had more yards than all but one TE...oh, wait!

VD hasn't suffered playing with Smith, they are in sync. This year he blocked more than in the past and I'm not sure even Rodgers could have completed many passes to a blocker.

VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

by the way, if I had to pick the most unbiased zoner in NT, it would be you. Me and a few zoners are biased one way and 99% of zoners are biased the other way. I've seen you both stand up for Smith's virtues and also pick at his faults. You don't have a one sized fits all answer, that's a compliment.

Originally posted by walker807:
My biggest nitpick with Vernon is that he goes down extremely easily for such a strong guy. His YAC all comes from speed. It doesn't matter who is throwing you the football after the catch and that is where I feel he could improve the most. Gronk is a great example of shedding tacklers.

This is his biggest flaw. He doesn't set his body up well to make the catch and run through the catch. If he could learn to catch with his hands instead of his body he would do so much better at getting extra yards by be able to push defenders off while the ball is already secured. He's too busy trying to secure the catch and can't free up his other arm to fight off tackles, especially on the deep balls.

IDK how he scored so many TD's last season. Dude is a horrible catcher/ball handler.

Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

they constantly double VD morgan crabs and kyle williams all have had alot of catches and until fr the amount of playing time

kaep and harbaugh said alex gpes through reads fast

the main problem is that not many of our WR cant consistently beat the one on one coverage outside VD that is why hes double covered and that is why he hasnt seen that many looks

however recently (for about 3 or 4 weeks or so) crabtree said he is 100% better since then vernon has ahd 20 receptions

Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
VD has been double teamed nearly every pass attempt. If he had Brees, Brees would easily find the next open receiver and force defenses to adjust their coverage and VD would get less double-teams as a result. Teams just don't think Alex is that great at getting the ball to his WR's. In the last 3 or 4 weeks, Alex has had plenty of WR talent in Kyle Williams and Crabtree. If you want to bring out Kyle Williams being a rookie as a reason for not recognizing him as a good WR, then I can bring up countless rookie WR's with similar talent or any talent who have produced incredible numbers for rookies, our Crabtree being one of them.

There is some truth to what you say. Smith was very dependent on VD and Morgan last year and had a very good QBR with the two. He developed a decent rapport with Edwards who was then injured. Now he was working on a rapport with Williams who is now injured. Crabtree has started slowly for three straight years but comes on toward the end of the season.

I have not bothered to do an exhaustive search, but the WRs I've checked out who are helping Rodgers, Brees, and Brady have been playing with them for some time and have built a rapport. You seem to skip over this every time I've mentioned it. Do you underestimate the value of practicing together? Williams was probably on the third string during the abbreviated TC so how many reps do you suppose he had with Smith? Would be interesting to chart the WRs available each week this year to see that stability versus other teams. If I have a windfall of time I'll do a comparison.

I agree with Shaj that you tend to make efforts to be unbiased. I just happen to disagree with your perceptions of Smith's ability.


Did I really say I agreed with Shaj on something in this thread?

I have highly stressed more than I need to Brees' first year with the Saints under a rookie head coach with 2 rookies in Colston (his best receiver that year with barely 1000 yards and Reggie Bush). Brady had no problem with Welker their first year together. Eli has no problem with Victor Cruz who can be considered new. This notion of inexperienced receivers or time together is false and doesn't hold water ANYWHERE. Look at Cam with Steve Smith. Rookie QB with a talented receiver. They didn't have any offseason together AND Cam is a rookie.

Look at Hakeem Nicks in his rookie year. Look at AJ Green being a rookie WR with a rookie QB.

Look at Alex with a healthy Crabtree, and Morgan was on pace to have a breakout year before he got hurt. Kyle Williams was also doing great before his injury as well.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Shaj:
If VD played for Brees, Manning, or Rodgers his whole career, I have no doubt he'd be a perennial probowler and widely considered the best TE in the league.

I'll bet if he has Smith as a QB he would have been in the Pro Bowl in 2009...oh, wait! That was in the Raye offense...whahoo! I'll bet if he has Smith as his QB in 2010 he would have had more yards than all but one TE...oh, wait!

VD hasn't suffered playing with Smith, they are in sync. This year he blocked more than in the past and I'm not sure even Rodgers could have completed many passes to a blocker.

Well he did also have Shaun Hill throwing him some TD passes that year.