Originally posted by 8to80:Eli has consistently had better teams around him to though. Why can't Smith just be Smith? Why do we constantly feel the need to compare him to other players in totally different situations? I think it is fair to say that Smith has had to endure more adversity than 99% of the QB's in NFL history. It kinda reminds me of the escape scene from Shawshank redemption, Alex has crawled through 600 yards of filth so vile that it is hard to imagine to emerge a clean new QB leading his team to a new level of respectability.
I agree that Grossman sucks more than Alex, but I wouldn't say Alex has "always" been better than him.
Eli is a good QB(not great). What do you mean by "a ton of picks"? I think a better gauge is TD/INT ratio, and Eli has a 169-118 and Smith has a 60-55. He also has a higher career pass completion %. Eli has been able to do this while throwing many more deep passes than Alex Smith. And, we all know that deep passes have a much lower % of completion than short passes do.
Eli and Alex also have completely different skill-sets. Eli has a strong arm, good accuracy, low scrambling ability, and at times makes poor decisions. Alex has a average arm, average accuracy (at best), great scrambling ability, and good decision making.
I guess you can compare the two, but I don't think it is a good comparison. You are comparing a Super Bowl MVP with a QB that has never made the playoffs. I think, that sentence explains it all.
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Nov 5, 2011 at 10:52 AM
- Memphis9er
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Nov 5, 2011 at 10:54 AM
- HessianDud
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Originally posted by 8to80:
Originally posted by HessianDud:I agree that Grossman sucks more than Alex, but I wouldn't say Alex has "always" been better than him.
Rex Grossman. Alex has always been better than Rex Grossman.
Eli has not really been very good. He's gotten better the last few years, and he usually puts up 3,000+ yards and 20 TD's, but he also throws a ton of picks. The Super Bowl year he threw 20 ints. Last year he threw 25. However, he does have the same career int % than Smith, and for his career has completed only 58% of his passes, roughly the same as Smith, and they have similar YPA numbers, especially if you discount Smith's 2007, which was pathetic due mostly to a torn shoulder.
So, absolutely you can compare Eli to Smith. they are similar in many key statistics, and both have improved every year they've been in the league. I think most people would take Eli without a second thought if given the choice, but in the end he's a second tier quarterback.
Eli is a good QB(not great). What do you mean by "a ton of picks"? I think a better gauge is TD/INT ratio, and Eli has a 169-118 and Smith has a 60-55. He also has a higher career pass completion %. Eli has been able to do this while throwing many more deep passes than Alex Smith. And, we all know that deep passes have a much lower % of completion than short passes do.
Eli and Alex also have completely different skill-sets. Eli has a strong arm, good accuracy, low scrambling ability, and at times makes poor decisions. Alex has a average arm, average accuracy (at best), great scrambling ability, and good decision making.
I guess you can compare the two, but I don't think it is a good comparison. You are comparing a Super Bowl MVP with a QB that has never made the playoffs. I think, that sentence explains it all.
ok, Smith's rookie year was worse than any year Grossman has ever had
By a "ton of picks" I mean that since 2005 (when he became a full time starter) Eli has thrown 17, 18, 20, 10, 14, 25 and so far 5 INTs for a 3.3 INT %.
Smiths' career INT % is 3.2, but he's never thrown more than 16, which Eli has done 4 out of 6 full seasons he's been a starter. To be fair, Smith hasn't played a full season since that year he threw 16, but he has cut down on his interceptions by percentage a lot the last few years, whereas Eli threw a career high in ints last season.
As far as completion %, Eli's career is 58.4 and Alex's is 57.7, not that different. This year Eli is completing 64.7 and Alex 63.2.
Eli is a Super Bowl MVP, yes, but through the 2007 season, when he made the Super Bowl, he had played in 57 games. Smith so far as played in 61.
They are different players, but I think their careers make an interesting comparison.
Nov 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM
- KowboyKiller
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Originally posted by Shaj:
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:
Brad Johnson
Eli Manning
Plenty of super bowl winners with a great defense and a QB who simply doesn't make mistakes.
I don't think you can compare Eli to Alex. Brad is a fair comparison, so is Trent Dilfer. Who was the Bear's QB when they went recently? Can't remember, but since he's not a household name, that probably means he's a fair comparison too.
Actually you can't compare Eli the year he won the super bowl to Alex this year, Alex is performing much better.
Eli 2007: 208 yards/game, 56 comp%, 20 ints and a rating of 73. I'll take what Alex Smith is doing over that.
Nov 5, 2011 at 11:47 AM
- 8to80
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Originally posted by Shaj:The most important thing I forgot to mention is that Eli and Alex are not comparable because they play different roles for their respective teams. Eli is a franchise QB expected to win most of their games for them. Alex is not a franchise QB expected to manage a run-oriented offense and not make many mistakes. You can argue that Eli is an average franchise QB, and that Alex is an average game manager, but to say they are both average QBs seems like a very biased opinion. Only on webzone would you find anyone arguing that Alex is as good as Eli and vice versa. If you read articles and watch TV, it's obvious what everyone's consensus is.
^^ his career stats do not support that. I would say average on both. Agree with everything else. What he is above average at is being a student of the game (which of course is meaningless if not translated to on the field resuls) and being a model team player. Right now (and not the prior 6 years), he is also above average at not making dumb mistakes, but that is at the expense of being below average in passing yards and big plays.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:It's funny how you say "Why do we constantly feel the need to compare him", and then you say he has endured more adversity than 99% of QBs in NFL history, which is another comparison (BTW, I think you forgot Steve Young).
Eli has consistently had better teams around him to though. Why can't Smith just be Smith? Why do we constantly feel the need to compare him to other players in totally different situations? I think it is fair to say that Smith has had to endure more adversity than 99% of the QB's in NFL history. It kinda reminds me of the escape scene from Shawshank redemption, Alex has crawled through 600 yards of filth so vile that it is hard to imagine to emerge a clean new QB leading his team to a new level of respectability.
If you take all the emotion out of it, the fact remains. Alex is a game manager, and there are critics who believe that he will have to step-up from this role for us to win in the playoffs. I, personally, think if we just keep playing how we have been, we will be fine. We have proven that we can come back from huge point deficits to win the game without Alex throwing with Rodgers/Brady numbers.
Nov 5, 2011 at 11:51 AM
- MaliCali
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Originally posted by verb1der:The 85 bears did it, I see similarities got damnit!
Alex is playing a lot more efficiently than McMahon did in 85, and is scoring more on average to this point too. Honestly if you look back at "game managers" who've gone all the way in the past, Alex is outperforming them all efficiency wise as well as I can see. Just keep it up!
Nov 5, 2011 at 12:04 PM
- VA49er
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Hey, if it happens then that will prove the theory.
Nov 5, 2011 at 12:12 PM
- 8to80
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Originally posted by KowboyKiller:I love how you rounded the 73.9 rating down to 73 as if it would have made your argument better. No one was comparing Eli Manning in 2007 to Alex Smith in 2011 except you. LOL.
Actually you can't compare Eli the year he won the super bowl to Alex this year, Alex is performing much better.
Eli 2007: 208 yards/game, 56 comp%, 20 ints and a rating of 73. I'll take what Alex Smith is doing over that.
Originally posted by MaliCali:I agree, if our whole team can keep this up (especially our defense), Alex Smith may go down as the best "game manager" QBs in history (that's if we win the Super Bowl). Championship!
Alex is playing a lot more efficiently than McMahon did in 85, and is scoring more on average to this point too. Honestly if you look back at "game managers" who've gone all the way in the past, Alex is outperforming them all efficiency wise as well as I can see. Just keep it up!
Nov 5, 2011 at 12:17 PM
- thechamber52
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Ravens did it, we can too
Nov 5, 2011 at 12:43 PM
- 49ersalldaway126
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Originally posted by 8to80:
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:I love how you rounded the 73.9 rating down to 73 as if it would have made your argument better. No one was comparing Eli Manning in 2007 to Alex Smith in 2011 except you. LOL.
Actually you can't compare Eli the year he won the super bowl to Alex this year, Alex is performing much better.
Eli 2007: 208 yards/game, 56 comp%, 20 ints and a rating of 73. I'll take what Alex Smith is doing over that.
Originally posted by MaliCali:I agree, if our whole team can keep this up (especially our defense), Alex Smith may go down as the best "game manager" QBs in history (that's if we win the Super Bowl). Championship!
Alex is playing a lot more efficiently than McMahon did in 85, and is scoring more on average to this point too. Honestly if you look back at "game managers" who've gone all the way in the past, Alex is outperforming them all efficiency wise as well as I can see. Just keep it up!
how do you guys define game manager?
that means luck is one too you know in stanford they ran almost 300 more times than they passed when harbaugh was coach?
i dont have the exact run to pass ratio of joe montana 49ers but he rarely every threw for over 260 yards
in fact his best year he only averaged 244 yards
harbaugh runs the same offense as walsh
with luck (one of the best colllege prospects of all time) he ran the ball more than they passed with him
and walsh obviously didnt make montana pass much either in fact the most hes averaged in a single season was 29 attempts per game in 1983
Nov 5, 2011 at 12:56 PM
- Memphis9er
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Originally posted by 8to80:No way, Montana was the best game manager of all time.
Originally posted by KowboyKiller:I love how you rounded the 73.9 rating down to 73 as if it would have made your argument better. No one was comparing Eli Manning in 2007 to Alex Smith in 2011 except you. LOL.
Actually you can't compare Eli the year he won the super bowl to Alex this year, Alex is performing much better.
Eli 2007: 208 yards/game, 56 comp%, 20 ints and a rating of 73. I'll take what Alex Smith is doing over that.
Originally posted by MaliCali:I agree, if our whole team can keep this up (especially our defense), Alex Smith may go down as the best "game manager" QBs in history (that's if we win the Super Bowl). Championship!
Alex is playing a lot more efficiently than McMahon did in 85, and is scoring more on average to this point too. Honestly if you look back at "game managers" who've gone all the way in the past, Alex is outperforming them all efficiency wise as well as I can see. Just keep it up!
Nov 5, 2011 at 1:01 PM
- overthemiddle
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For some reason I dislike the connotations of game manager I think Alex is more like the caretaker of the offense.
Nov 5, 2011 at 1:17 PM
- Giggidy
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Hostetler, Rypien, and Dilfer did it, but they also had killer Ds backing them up (ours ain't so shabby either this year...).
Nov 5, 2011 at 1:22 PM
- diggen4gold
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how could you compare Eli Manning and that team to Alex smith. Eli is 10 times the qb Alex Smith will ever be. Their is no comparison!!!
Nov 5, 2011 at 1:24 PM
- AXEGRINDER
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Originally posted by diggen4gold:how could you compare Eli Manning and that team to Alex smith. Eli is 10 times the qb Alex Smith will ever be. Their is no comparison!!!
lol
Nov 5, 2011 at 1:24 PM
- HessianDud
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not to keep harping on the Eli/Alex comparison, but I think Eli's Super Bowl year is a an interesting cut off to compare the two. A more precise comparison, though, is the year right after the Super Bowl.
In 2008, Eli was 27 years old and had played in 73 games. This year Alex is 27 and will have played in 70 games.
2008 was Eli's first truly good year. The Giants won 12 games, he completed 60% of his passes (before that: about 55%), had 21 TD's to 10 INT's (before that, he averaged about 23 TD's and 18 INTs a year), added more than an entire yard to his YPA average to get to 6.8, and had a career high passer rating of 86.4 (mid 70s before that). Has about 3200 yards, which was normal for him, and he averaged just over 200 YPG.
before that, his numbers were ok. Some good, some bad, overall numbers that said "decent QB, nothing special, but a good enough starter in the NFL." But 2008 is the year that he "turned the corner" and started to put up some really good numbers (and some really bad, like his 25 picks last year).
Excluding their rookie years and Alex's 2007 (shoulder injury) these are what Eli's 3 seasons prior to 2008 looked like, and what Alex's 3 seasons prior to this year look like (For Alex: 2006; 2009; 2010--For Eli: 2005; 2006; 2007)
Completion %:
Alex: 58.1; 60.5; 59.6
Eli: 52.8; 57.7; 56.1
Yards per Game:
Alex: 180.6; 213.6; 215.5
Eli: 235.1; 202.8; 208.5
Passer Rating:
Alex: 74.8; 81.5; 82.1
Eli: 75.9; 77.0; 73.9
Yards per Attempt:
Alex: 6.5; 6.3; 6.9
Eli: 6.8; 6.2; 6.3
TD % & INT %
Alex: 3.6 & 3.6; 4.8 & 3.2; 4.1 & 2.9
Eli: 4.3 & 3.1; 4.6 & 3.4; 4.3 & 3.8
Game Winning Drives:
Alex: 6
Eli: 8
...anyway, my point is that at a similar junction in their careers, they had similar numbers in a lot of categories. Obviously, in the one that counts most--wins--Eli had a big advantage, and by 2007 obviously he already had a Super Bowl ring. But if we're just thinking about "what kind of QB's win Super Bowls", Eli of 2007 is a good comparison for Alex of 2011. That doesn't mean that Smith will win a Super Bowl this year or necessarily soon, of course.
In 2008, Eli was 27 years old and had played in 73 games. This year Alex is 27 and will have played in 70 games.
2008 was Eli's first truly good year. The Giants won 12 games, he completed 60% of his passes (before that: about 55%), had 21 TD's to 10 INT's (before that, he averaged about 23 TD's and 18 INTs a year), added more than an entire yard to his YPA average to get to 6.8, and had a career high passer rating of 86.4 (mid 70s before that). Has about 3200 yards, which was normal for him, and he averaged just over 200 YPG.
before that, his numbers were ok. Some good, some bad, overall numbers that said "decent QB, nothing special, but a good enough starter in the NFL." But 2008 is the year that he "turned the corner" and started to put up some really good numbers (and some really bad, like his 25 picks last year).
Excluding their rookie years and Alex's 2007 (shoulder injury) these are what Eli's 3 seasons prior to 2008 looked like, and what Alex's 3 seasons prior to this year look like (For Alex: 2006; 2009; 2010--For Eli: 2005; 2006; 2007)
Completion %:
Alex: 58.1; 60.5; 59.6
Eli: 52.8; 57.7; 56.1
Yards per Game:
Alex: 180.6; 213.6; 215.5
Eli: 235.1; 202.8; 208.5
Passer Rating:
Alex: 74.8; 81.5; 82.1
Eli: 75.9; 77.0; 73.9
Yards per Attempt:
Alex: 6.5; 6.3; 6.9
Eli: 6.8; 6.2; 6.3
TD % & INT %
Alex: 3.6 & 3.6; 4.8 & 3.2; 4.1 & 2.9
Eli: 4.3 & 3.1; 4.6 & 3.4; 4.3 & 3.8
Game Winning Drives:
Alex: 6
Eli: 8
...anyway, my point is that at a similar junction in their careers, they had similar numbers in a lot of categories. Obviously, in the one that counts most--wins--Eli had a big advantage, and by 2007 obviously he already had a Super Bowl ring. But if we're just thinking about "what kind of QB's win Super Bowls", Eli of 2007 is a good comparison for Alex of 2011. That doesn't mean that Smith will win a Super Bowl this year or necessarily soon, of course.
[ Edited by HessianDud on Nov 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM ]