Harbaugh Handshake with Jim Schwartz

Originally posted by danimal:
Uhhh, losing or winning a challenge is not what makes it a bad challenge. If you don't understand that concept I am not sure I can help you.

A. He challenged a scoring play!!!!!! Thats a penalty!!!!! Everybody should know that!!!! I certainly understood that before game 1 started
B: 2nd half, in a close game, Alex already had to burn a T.O......you don't challenge again in the 3rd quarter and the play wasn't even that critical

Nolan and Sing also sucked at challenges. Its not the winning percentages that make HC's good challenge coaches, its the ones who understand what battles to fight and when, and when the timeout is not worth the risk

Just to be fair, Jim Harbaugh did say that he knew the rule about not being able to challenge a scoring play and that he threw the challenge flag anyway hoping to get the referee's attention and possibly have him review the play more closely. In terms of the penalty, I don't think it really hurt us as it merely got the Lions to kick from the 50 yard-line rather than the 35, and we would most likely have started from our 20 in either scenario. My issue though would be whether or not it would be worth it to lose a challenge. Nevertheless, it's not as if Harbaugh threw the challenge flag out of total ignorance or confusion, but rather he did so for a specific, calculated reason.

Originally posted by NoOffseason:

Originally posted by danimal:
HC's who last on teams for 5+ years, have long term success, and periods of failure but still get support from their players......90% are conservative smart guys.

A smart, experienced and educated NFL player realizes that an HC who can out think the guy across the field is the guy who will give you the best shot to win season after season.

Courage, Fight, excited. emotional, inspirational???? None of that stuff helps you outcoach the guy across the field. Those attributes are great for on the field. Last time I checked the coaches can't play the game

Again. Harbaugh is clearly the guy who is going to end this terrible drought. And nothing else should matter. Nothing else matters to me right now. But someday I want the Niners to finally replace Walsh and Seifert. A matured Jim Harbaugh can be that guy

I think you might be projecting a bit. Preparation, having a gameplan, putting your players in the position to win can be accomplished by coaches will all sorts of sideline demeanor. Contrary to what you might think, not all of them are completely calm and collected on the sidelines. Maybe you can get that feeling if you look at guys like Belichick (although I would argue he is pretty agitated and argues with the refs a lot, but arguing with the refs is something ALL head coaches do) a lot, but there are plenty of counterexamples of successful, long-term coaches who have a very different sideline demeanor.

Prime example would be Sean Payton, who goes off on the sideline like crazy, but last I checked, he is considered one of the great offensive playcallers in the game right now and also sports a recent Super Bowl Ring. Tom Coughlin is also a pretty agitated fella (have you seen his face go red when he argues? Always fun to look at ) and he has been successful with the Giants for quite some time now. Mike Tomlin is also a young HC who can get pretty agitated and he has some Super Bowl hardware as well and is in maybe the best long-term coaching position in the league. Those guys are temperamental coaches with long-term success, just like there are more calm ones like maybe Mike McCarthy or seemingly Belichick. So I think there is no single, simple blueprint for a successful head coach and his sideline demeanor.

Do I think Harbaugh should learn to control himself a little better in time? Sure, that cannot hurt. But I think he should stay true to himself and if that means being more agitated on the sidelines, so be it. Does not mean he will not be successful long-term or cannot win a Super Bowl. He should show that he has answers in game-planning, coaching and personnel moves for the team and right now, he seems to have plenty of them (don´t forget the players raving the last weeks about the detail-oriented preparation they got from him and the entire coaching staff). I look forward to see if he and his staff can keep this up

I don't think any of those guys you listed have done anything close to what Jim did last night. If he controlled himself to their level I would not be posting any of this today.

And for the record, the only time good HC's should be confronting is with the zebras. So you will never hear me complain if Harbaugh tears a zebra a new one when called for.

Some other zoner posted and I totally agree, it should have been Harbaugh vs Carey.

Originally posted by real9erfan:

Originally posted by danimal:
Uhhh, losing or winning a challenge is not what makes it a bad challenge. If you don't understand that concept I am not sure I can help you.

A. He challenged a scoring play!!!!!! Thats a penalty!!!!! Everybody should know that!!!! I certainly understood that before game 1 started
B: 2nd half, in a close game, Alex already had to burn a T.O......you don't challenge again in the 3rd quarter and the play wasn't even that critical

Nolan and Sing also sucked at challenges. Its not the winning percentages that make HC's good challenge coaches, its the ones who understand what battles to fight and when, and when the timeout is not worth the risk

Just to be fair, Jim Harbaugh did say that he knew the rule about not being able to challenge a scoring play and that he threw the challenge flag anyway hoping to get the referee's attention and possibly have him review the play more closely. In terms of the penalty, I don't think it really hurt us as it merely got the Lions to kick from the 50 yard-line rather than the 35, and we would most likely have started from our 20 in either scenario. My issue though would be whether or not it would be worth it to lose a challenge. Nevertheless, it's not as if Harbaugh threw the challenge flag out of total ignorance or confusion, but rather he did so for a specific, calculated reason.

thanks, good to know. But from this point forward I would hope he never does that again.

That kind of reminds me of the scene from a "Few Good Men" "No, you honor you don't understand, I STRENUOUSLY object!"

To throw the flag to make a point, is exactly why they knew before hand to categorize the penalty as a "Poor Sportsmanship"

As we wait for the NFL to dispense discipline (or not) for Sunday's pushy-shovy scuffle between 49ers coach Jim Harbaugh and Lions coach Jim Schwartz, Eric Branch of the San Francisco Chronicle points to an article from earlier this year regarding some dinner discussion between the two men, as told to thePhiladelphia Inquirer by Ravens coach John Harbaugh.

"We were having dinner the other night and Jim Schwartz told [Jim Harbaugh] basically there's no way you're going to be able to get it done [if the lockout lasts into the summer]," John Harbaugh said. "[Schwartz] told him there's no way you're going to be able to accomplish what you need to accomplish in two weeks if this thing lasts a while. Jim [Harbaugh] just kind of bit his tongue, which is what you've got to do in this situation. Because there's nothing you can do about it."

Actually, there is something you can do about it. You can use it as extra motivation, and then when you beat the guy who said "there's no way you're going to be able to get it done," you can get really fired up and give him an aggressive handshake, along with a shove in the back.

More importantly, Jim Harbaugh told reporters in March that, if the lockout greatly reduces his preparation time for his first NFL season, "I'll find a way."

And he sure as hell has.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/17/schwartz-harbaugh-had-awkward-exchange-in-march/

http://www.seahawkshuddle.com/threads/f**k-jim-harbaugh.5813/ lol talk bitter

Originally posted by danimal:
I don't think any of those guys you listed have done anything close to what Jim did last night. If he controlled himself to their level I would not be posting any of this today.

And for the record, the only time good HC's should be confronting is with the zebras. So you will never hear me complain if Harbaugh tears a zebra a new one when called for.

Some other zoner posted and I totally agree, it should have been Harbaugh vs Carey.

Um, I would disagree with guys like Sean Payton being more controlled all the time than Jim Harbaugh, but you can judge for yourself:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-americas-game/09000d5d81a5e4f0/America-s-Game-Saints-Brees-throws-at-diapers

It is only a really short blurb, but you can see Payton being really into the game, being described as a "maniac" and chewing his players out, but also firing them up. Heck, they even narrate it with the calm demeanor of Drew Brees being a good counterpoint to his head coach.

But heck, I am not even disagreeing with you that it would be a good thing for Harbaugh to learn to get his emotions in check a little better, but I think it sounds to me (and I think to a lot of other posters) that the way you say it he should go into the complete opposite direction to have long-term success, by being all calm and heady even on the sideline. I think that would not be Jim Harbaugh anymore and him try to be a phony calm one would get sniffed out by the players really fast and that could actually really cost him credibility.

Also, I think your implication that the NFL has not really changed from the Walsh/Seifert days: Really? Even disregarding the ever-increasing 24/7 media circle and all the rule changes and the way todays players are bigger, faster and stronger than ever before, I would have four simple words against that notion:

Salary Cap

Free Agency

Originally posted by NoOffseason:

Originally posted by danimal:
I don't think any of those guys you listed have done anything close to what Jim did last night. If he controlled himself to their level I would not be posting any of this today.

And for the record, the only time good HC's should be confronting is with the zebras. So you will never hear me complain if Harbaugh tears a zebra a new one when called for.

Some other zoner posted and I totally agree, it should have been Harbaugh vs Carey.

Um, I would disagree with guys like Sean Payton being more controlled all the time than Jim Harbaugh, but you can judge for yourself:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-americas-game/09000d5d81a5e4f0/America-s-Game-Saints-Brees-throws-at-diapers

It is only a really short blurb, but you can see Payton being really into the game, being described as a "maniac" and chewing his players out, but also firing them up. Heck, they even narrate it with the calm demeanor of Drew Brees being a good counterpoint to his head coach.

But heck, I am not even disagreeing with you that it would be a good thing for Harbaugh to learn to get his emotions in check a little better, but I think it sounds to me (and I think to a lot of other posters) that the way you say it he should go into the complete opposite direction to have long-term success, by being all calm and heady even on the sideline. I think that would not be Jim Harbaugh anymore and him try to be a phony calm one would get sniffed out by the players really fast and that could actually really cost him credibility.

Also, I think your implication that the NFL has not really changed from the Walsh/Seifert days: Really? Even disregarding the ever-increasing 24/7 media circle and all the rule changes and the way todays players are bigger, faster and stronger than ever before, I would have four simple words against that notion:

Salary Cap

Free Agency

point taken on Payton.

About the change in the NFL, I was only talking about the specific subject of coaching style, of course the NFL has changed, but my premise is that the coaching style that achieves sustainable success seems to have remained.

All the loud mouths come and go. And the laid back masterminds last. Thats what I am saying has not seemed to change.

But one thing I did not bring up was age. So maybe I need to account for that more too. Still generally speaking, but men are usually more reserved in their 30's than their 20's......more reserved in their 40's than their 30's...etc

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by real9erfan:

Originally posted by danimal:
Uhhh, losing or winning a challenge is not what makes it a bad challenge. If you don't understand that concept I am not sure I can help you.

A. He challenged a scoring play!!!!!! Thats a penalty!!!!! Everybody should know that!!!! I certainly understood that before game 1 started
B: 2nd half, in a close game, Alex already had to burn a T.O......you don't challenge again in the 3rd quarter and the play wasn't even that critical

Nolan and Sing also sucked at challenges. Its not the winning percentages that make HC's good challenge coaches, its the ones who understand what battles to fight and when, and when the timeout is not worth the risk

Just to be fair, Jim Harbaugh did say that he knew the rule about not being able to challenge a scoring play and that he threw the challenge flag anyway hoping to get the referee's attention and possibly have him review the play more closely. In terms of the penalty, I don't think it really hurt us as it merely got the Lions to kick from the 50 yard-line rather than the 35, and we would most likely have started from our 20 in either scenario. My issue though would be whether or not it would be worth it to lose a challenge. Nevertheless, it's not as if Harbaugh threw the challenge flag out of total ignorance or confusion, but rather he did so for a specific, calculated reason.

thanks, good to know. But from this point forward I would hope he never does that again.

That kind of reminds me of the scene from a "Few Good Men" "No, you honor you don't understand, I STRENUOUSLY object!"

To throw the flag to make a point, is exactly why they knew before hand to categorize the penalty as a "Poor Sportsmanship"

Glad someone posted it. There were two things why you can't really blame harbaugh for that flag.

A) It's a new rule, and there is no established protocol for when the play is being challenged automatically but the headcoaches want to ensure its being looked at. Harbaugh threw the red flag and got the penalty... but had that not happened, does Schwartz still call a "timeout" instead of throwing the red flag to review our TD later in the game? As far as Im concerned Schwartz probably would of thrown the flag right there to get the refs attention had Jim not just gotten penalized. Which brings the next point...

B) 15 yard penalties on a kickoff is a joke now, in that situation Harbs wanted that play reviewed more closely. Does he call a timeout only to get told "no" or does he force the issue by throwing a review flag...he forced the issue and got the penalty. But when the odds are favoring touchbacks now anyways, why not force the issue? The lions went up 10-0, the surprise onside kick was not a huge threat and with the way the niners started why would you risk giving us good field position.

This is just a case of no precedent being set, and the coach forcing the issue knowing that the consequences had little impact anyways. Had the penalty been loss of challenge then its a totally different story.

Originally posted by danimal:
point taken on Payton.

About the change in the NFL, I was only talking about the specific subject of coaching style, of course the NFL has changed, but my premise is that the coaching style that achieves sustainable success seems to have remained.

All the loud mouths come and go. And the laid back masterminds last. Thats what I am saying has not seemed to change.

But one thing I did not bring up was age. So maybe I need to account for that more too. Still generally speaking, but men are usually more reserved in their 30's than their 20's......more reserved in their 40's than their 30's...etc

Ahh, now that sounds a lot more logical and I would agree on that point

I think a little danger might be there with Harbaugh, but what I think works in our favor right now is that the team had Singletary before who in hindsight was a temperamental loudmouth, but had no football substance behind it, meaning his game-planning, coaching, personnel moves were terrible and that was what finally undid him. He also had the specific problem that he needed both a strong Offensive and Defensive Coordinator around him, but had not enough NFL personnel ties and contacts to attract really good ones (Manusky was a holdover and the lesser be said about the OCs, the better…).

So our team and its core players have seen what a loudmouth with no substance can do to a team (even though they might have personally liked him) and the way they have responded so far to a new head coach who still is temperamental, but much more detailed in his approach and with strong Xs and Os credentials (again, the raving comments we heard about the detailed approach from players going from Alex to Frank, Vernon some O-Linemen) and a strong coaching staff around him (take Fangio for example, who was an NFL DC before a few times and has 25 years of NFL coaching experience) makes me think there is some good potential that Harbaugh might go the Sean Payton route: Analytical, calm and focused while preparing his team and agitated and fired up while on the sideline. As Payton and some other coaches have shown, that can be a great winning combination

Originally posted by Sman:
http://www.seahawkshuddle.com/threads/f**k-jim-harbaugh.5813/ lol talk bitter

F***n Haters!

Jason LaConfora says no discipline for either coach from NFL. via twitter.

Originally posted by NoOffseason:
Ahh, now that sounds a lot more logical and I would agree on that point

I think a little danger might be there with Harbaugh, but what I think works in our favor right now is that the team had Singletary before who in hindsight was a temperamental loudmouth, but had no football substance behind it, meaning his game-planning, coaching, personnel moves were terrible and that was what finally undid him. He also had the specific problem that he needed both a strong Offensive and Defensive Coordinator around him, but had not enough NFL personnel ties and contacts to attract really good ones (Manusky was a holdover and the lesser be said about the OCs, the better…).

So our team and its core players have seen what a loudmouth with no substance can do to a team (even though they might have personally liked him) and the way they have responded so far to a new head coach who still is temperamental, but much more detailed in his approach and with strong Xs and Os credentials (again, the raving comments we heard about the detailed approach from players going from Alex to Frank, Vernon some O-Linemen) and a strong coaching staff around him (take Fangio for example, who was an NFL DC before a few times and has 25 years of NFL coaching experience) makes me think there is some good potential that Harbaugh might go the Sean Payton route: Analytical, calm and focused while preparing his team and agitated and fired up while on the sideline. As Payton and some other coaches have shown, that can be a great winning combination

I am glad you bring up personal contacts and ties, because there is a much more selfish reason you want to be a classy coach. You may have to work the guy sometime.

Imagine over the next 5 years the Niners become a powerhouse but something goes wrong in Detroit offensively. The Niners are knocking on the door and Schwartz becomes the prize DC of the off season the guy who could help the Niners make the final hurdle to the 6th ring.

judybattista Judy Battista by MBachCSN



NFL says no fine for Schwartz/Harbaugh dustup. No fighting, no fine. Both coaches told Ray Anderson their behavior was wrong.

Originally posted by 49ersMan420:
Schwartz "What the f**k you doin!"

Harbaugh: What's your problem Schwartz?

Harbaugh was trying to be apologetic in the post game, but I couldn't help but laugh, because his explaination belied a slight at Schwartz-in that he was saying I'm sorry its on me, cause I was happy and gave him a hard strontg handshake etc., translation - my bad, I was too manly for him, didn't realize he was such a sissy boy.

Originally posted by danimal:
I am glad you bring up personal contacts and ties, because there is a much more selfish reason you want to be a classy coach. You may have to work the guy sometime.

Imagine over the next 5 years the Niners become a powerhouse but something goes wrong in Detroit offensively. The Niners are knocking on the door and Schwartz becomes the prize DC of the off season the guy who could help the Niners make the final hurdle to the 6th ring.

Yeah, that is one the main reasons why I think it would be good for Jim Harbaugh to get a bit more controlled in the future.

I think it is an encouraging sign that today both coaches seemed to say they were wrong and that they would reach out to another privately to clear up any lingering misunderstandings and would learn from it. That should be the right conclusion

Although I still have two nitpicks: Even coaches who are generally relatively classy might sour some working relationships: Belichick usually seems to be gracious enough, but that seems to exclude a lot of his former underlings, see Mangini etc. That didn´t work out so well

Also, IF the Niners really become a powerhouse over the next 5 years and we would consider adding Schwartz as a DC, I really hope he would be working with us on bringing us a seventh or eight ring, not merely the sixth one