Can we give some props to Trent Baalke?

Originally posted by SJniner7:

Originally posted by GMniner805:

Manny was often in coverage & still managed 14.5 sacks over the last two years, yet he's an ineffective passer rusher??

& then you blame him for the 49ers DL not being able to read a screen..

Manny Lawson slow as he'll?? The man ran a 4.43 40 yard dash & you call webzoners football illiterate?? Man get out of here with that nonsense.

Frankly your mistaken, I doubt you have played or coached(which i have btw) the game outside of Madden.

14.5 sacks in 3 years is hardly good for a pass-rusher. Manny was good at "setting the edge" and coverage, that was about it. His measly $3 million for 1-year (relative, of course) dollar contract and lack of suitors show how much he was over hyped on the zone..

he misread the stats.

It wasnt over 2 or 3 yrs, its in his 5yr career.

14.5 sacks, over 5 yrs is terrible IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/player/mannylawson/2495885/profile

oh and Goldson.

5 INTS in 4 yrs.

09 he had 4 ints, with 1 Good game.

No where near worth 40M, more like 3M a yr.

we have 30 million in cap space,and we are doing nothing.

Originally posted by GMniner805:

Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:

Originally posted by GMniner805:

Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:

Originally posted by GMniner805:
How do you let the bengals sign Lawson away for a measly 3 mil 1 year contract??

I would have locked manny up for 3 or 4 years in the 12-16 mil range, him along with smith would have been a talented duo at OLB.

Good thing you're not the GM. I've never understood the fascination with Lawson, especially considering how much money the organization paid to him in his front-loaded contract. He's making less money now than he did his first year in the league, and that's when he was considerably overvalued.

That being said, I doubt he would've gone for your deal anyway. He doesn't want to split time, he probably wants to start, and he's probably tired of the organization.

Anyone who actually knows the game of football & has watched the games on sunday understands Lawson was one of the 49ers most talented/valuable defenders.

Oh okay, I'll respond by using similar hyperbole. Anyone who actually knows the game of football and has watched the games on Sunday understands Lawson was ultimately an ineffective pass rusher who was unable to shed blocks despite his increased size, covered less effectively than the posters on this forum would have you believe, and didn't even garner a mid-tier 6th year linebacker's salary from a team with a huge need at SAM linebacker.

Oh wait, that's not hyperbole. That's the truth. If he was so great in coverage, why were we constantly burnt on the screen and the flat? A lot of that had to do with the scheme, but Manny Lawson's position is supposed to cover these plays. He, along with Haralson, never squared up or set the edge as effectively as Webzoners (who are completely football illiterate based off of what I've read here in the last few days) would think. Lawson had especially slow reaction time and didn't keep his man in front of him. Not a great recipe considering he's slow as hell.

Manny was often in coverage & still managed 14.5 sacks over the last two years, yet he's an ineffective passer rusher??

& then you blame him for the 49ers DL not being able to read a screen..

Manny Lawson slow as he'll?? The man ran a 4.43 40 yard dash & you call webzoners football illiterate?? Man get out of here with that nonsense.

Frankly your mistaken, I doubt you have played or coached(which i have btw) the game outside of Madden.

You can't even read a stat sheet and you're calling me football illiterate? Obviously your illiteracy extends beyond the pigskin.

FYI genius, in a 3-4 scheme it's the OLB's job to read the screen and contain it. It's the defensive end's job in a 4-3 scheme. More than that, it's the OLB's primary concern to rush the passer, which Lawson obviously wasn't able to do as well as Ahmad Brooks or Travis LaBoy. You need big men up front on the Dline to take up blockers and strong, speedy rushers to get at the QB. He may have run a 4.43 at the combine, but Lawson doesn't play at that speed because (and this may surprise you) there's usually someone between the pass rusher and the quarterback. Reaction time has a lot to do with football speed, and Manny Lawson's reaction time was extremely slow. Then again, if you watched the film on Sundays, you would know this.

It's the same reason why Jerry Rice, despite never being a 4.3 burner, was able to appear much faster than the cornerbacks across from him. His route running was so precise that he froze cornerbacks on his cuts. That split second of hesitation can turn a 4.4 straight line speedster into a much slower player in game.

[ Edited by 12b6demurrer on Aug 2, 2011 at 11:50:17 ]

Despite the fans mostly positive fan support for Jim Harbaugh. His hiring doesn't mean squat to the NFL athlete. They don't know what kind of NFL coach he will be or how the organization will fare this year under a new regime.

Everyone, is blaming Baalke-but no one has taken into account what Harbaugh and company think of our players. With the exception of Fangio most have watched tape of the players. The niners have obviously set a value or a players worth, if it goes beyond then they won't go there. Fans want the niners to just spend and calling people tight, yet forget that one this is a business and if you won't do it with your money shouldn't expect others to overpay.

Unfortunately, it is like Forrest Gumps box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get till you take a bite. Not one person here can tell me they knew that Bill Walsh was going to have the kind of success he had. They hoped and thought he would do pretty good, but no one knew great. Same can be said of the pats Bill or New Orleans Sean. The same can be said of the GMs,, everyone says get an established GM-yet Joe Thomas was once sucessful and killed us, conversely the Falcons, Eagles and many now successful teams went with inexp people and have done well. Will Baalke and Jim Succeed, I don't know, but it is like the draft, need time to evaluate-in the meantime-the uninformed fan will always clamor for the sexy pick, even though majority of the time that sexy pick is like a hot girl, good at the begining cause she looks hot but only to find totally shallow/useless and not all that.

He's obviously tried to sign the guys we all wanted him to sign but the 49ers would have to overpay any elite player to come here until we start winning. Do you all want another Nate Clements fiasco?

Originally posted by fakers23:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by 190836:

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by aclarke49:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by b9er37:
There has obviously been a lot of arguments about why Baalke has not been able to deliver top free agents, and I have been one who is certainly disappointed. Now that I have had some time to think things through I believe the CBA thing really did screw up this season for us. Why waste money on pricey free agents when Jim needs time to find out what he has to work with. I think we just roll out with a young team this year and see who can play. I hate to throw in the towel but next year we'll have a much better shot at scoring free agents and winning some games. Just my perspective...

It certainly makes sense but, of course, they could never come out and say it. The term “rebuilding” is to the NFL what “Voldemort” is to the world of Harry Potter. So Baalke and York talk about patience and sticking to the plan. Trouble is, the plan for 2011 is tear down the roster, get some high priced guys off the books, and audition a bunch of young guys. Makes it tough on your marketing department when your plan is to basically tank the season.

49er slogans:

2009: “I want winners!”
2010: “Don’t tell me, show me!”
2011: “We’ll get ‘em next year!”

I don't know what your definition of tear down the roster... but this is not a tear down. You wanna see a tear down go look at what McDaniels did to Denver.

It looks like we could actually be bringing Franklin and Goldson back, who knows what Manny is up to, its possible all three come back. Won't matter cause fans will always find something to complain about.

If you lose 5 out of 6 starters on defense (which could very well happen), that's a tear down. If your defensive coordinator says that only two positions are set and everything else is up for grabs, that's a tear down. If you're 24th in the league in pass defense and you let your starting CB walk with no one to replace him, that's a tear down. When said starting CB is quoted by his new coach as saying that he left because he didn't want to be part of rebuilding, that's a tear down. They're not trying to add a couple pieces on defense, they're starting over. That's a tear down.

Agreed. I don't see how he can keep his job. If the Yorks have any respect for themselves then they would get rid of him now.

They gotta give trent and jim a chance. Some of the guys we lost just didn't want to be here so they can f off. If our other free agents don't want to come in here at a reasonable price then so can they. I would like to see trent burn up some of that 30 million, but I don't want to see any nate clements type mistakes. Just hang in there niner fans...At this point what do we really have to lose?

With all due respect, fans like you said the same thing about how we have to give the GM and the coach time and a chance. The result was Erickson, Nolan and Sing. A decade of losing.

With all due respect, we haven't even played a preseason game yet.

The 9er fan cycle:

August
This team is blowing it in the draft and FA. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: We haven’t even played a preseason game yet.

October
This team is getting out-played and out-coached. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: The season’s barely started.

December
We sucked this year!
A: It wasn’t that bad. We’ll fix the problems in the off-season.

August
This team is blowing it in the draft and FA. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: We haven’t even played a preseason game yet.

Repeat ad infinitum.

lol... so true

Lol so much drama queenery going on here.

The Yorks did get rid of the GM and HC. You guys expect this team to run before learning to walk. This aint a tear down, aside from Spikes, every player we've lost so far in FA has been the subject of multiple hate threads and now everyone is crying cause they are gone. This isn't a tear down, its over-dramatizing the loss of players that are replaceable. Name one RECENT probowler we've lost so far?

Manny didn't fit the system... we've known this for years, but he will be a loss in the run game, still replaceable. Clements sucked last year, and his play has been on the decline for some time now, and he was unwilling to budge from his crazy salary, the team is better for cutting him. Spikes was a great locker guy, had his best year since 2003 and was often injured (only played a full season in 3 of the last 6 year), you cant justifiably say he can repeat his level of play and stay healthy at his age, replaceable.

Aside from CB which was a glaring hole even when we had Clements, our defense is gonna look the same. Good at stopping the run and holes in the secondary. Manny is our biggest loss so far, but if Aldon Smith plays adequate I'll take him and Brooks over Manny and Parys as an upgrade.

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by 190836:

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by aclarke49:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Lifer:

Originally posted by b9er37:
There has obviously been a lot of arguments about why Baalke has not been able to deliver top free agents, and I have been one who is certainly disappointed. Now that I have had some time to think things through I believe the CBA thing really did screw up this season for us. Why waste money on pricey free agents when Jim needs time to find out what he has to work with. I think we just roll out with a young team this year and see who can play. I hate to throw in the towel but next year we'll have a much better shot at scoring free agents and winning some games. Just my perspective...

It certainly makes sense but, of course, they could never come out and say it. The term “rebuilding” is to the NFL what “Voldemort” is to the world of Harry Potter. So Baalke and York talk about patience and sticking to the plan. Trouble is, the plan for 2011 is tear down the roster, get some high priced guys off the books, and audition a bunch of young guys. Makes it tough on your marketing department when your plan is to basically tank the season.

49er slogans:

2009: “I want winners!”
2010: “Don’t tell me, show me!”
2011: “We’ll get ‘em next year!”

I don't know what your definition of tear down the roster... but this is not a tear down. You wanna see a tear down go look at what McDaniels did to Denver.

It looks like we could actually be bringing Franklin and Goldson back, who knows what Manny is up to, its possible all three come back. Won't matter cause fans will always find something to complain about.

If you lose 5 out of 6 starters on defense (which could very well happen), that's a tear down. If your defensive coordinator says that only two positions are set and everything else is up for grabs, that's a tear down. If you're 24th in the league in pass defense and you let your starting CB walk with no one to replace him, that's a tear down. When said starting CB is quoted by his new coach as saying that he left because he didn't want to be part of rebuilding, that's a tear down. They're not trying to add a couple pieces on defense, they're starting over. That's a tear down.

Agreed. I don't see how he can keep his job. If the Yorks have any respect for themselves then they would get rid of him now.

They gotta give trent and jim a chance. Some of the guys we lost just didn't want to be here so they can f off. If our other free agents don't want to come in here at a reasonable price then so can they. I would like to see trent burn up some of that 30 million, but I don't want to see any nate clements type mistakes. Just hang in there niner fans...At this point what do we really have to lose?

With all due respect, fans like you said the same thing about how we have to give the GM and the coach time and a chance. The result was Erickson, Nolan and Sing. A decade of losing.

With all due respect, we haven't even played a preseason game yet.

The 9er fan cycle:

August
This team is blowing it in the draft and FA. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: We haven’t even played a preseason game yet.

October
This team is getting out-played and out-coached. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: The season’s barely started.

December
We sucked this year!
A: It wasn’t that bad. We’ll fix the problems in the off-season.

August
This team is blowing it in the draft and FA. We’re gonna suck this year!
A: We haven’t even played a preseason game yet.

Repeat ad infinitum.

Alright, get a new team then... I prolly thought nolan was gonna be a good coach, and I even thought sing was gonna be aight. But I really do believe Jim is the dude to at least bring the niners back to respectability. Look at how close we were to the playoffs last year, and dudes were making ridiculous mistakes on the field. Anything can happen, just because you don't have every high priced free agent on your team doesn't mean you can't win. Look at Tampa,and KC, maybe they didn't do anything in the playoffs, but the young dudes created a buzz for their fans. something to build on.

I respect your optimism. Mine has been drained by 11 years of institutional floundering, made all the more bitter by the previous 20 years of excellence. I agree that Jim Harbaugh is the dude. I like him a lot and I think his hiring was a major victory for the Yorks. Respect. Trouble is, I know that even the best coach in the world can’t succeed without a great front office, personnel department, and unwavering support from ownership. No coach can do it by himself.

What I see happening is the same old thing from the Yorks: one step forward, two steps back. They made a great hire with Harbaugh, now management is undercutting him through inaction and what appears to be bald faced frugality. I fear they are setting Harbaugh up to fail… not because they want to fail; it’s just what they do.

Look how close we were to the playoffs last year? If you keep that team intact and bring in Harbaugh’s staff, you probably win two more games. If you do that and add a quality CB (Joseph), a pass rusher (A. Smith), and a couple bits and pieces, you might win four more games. But noooooooooooo…. They gut the defense and start building for “the future” again. But with the Yorks, the future never comes. Eight years of failure. Eight years of excuses. Eight years of apologists and “I want to believe” optimists. I’m demanding more and I’ll believe that those losers (the Yorks) can succeed when I actually see some success.

I have one question for Baalke. What is the plan?

Originally posted by susweel:
Z -

From SI coloumn on ESPN website:

San Francisco 49ers

Key additions: Alex Smith (re-signed), Ray McDonald (re-signed), Carlos Rogers, Madieu Williams, David Akers, Jonathan Goodwin
Key losses: Aubrayo Franklin, Nate Clements, Manny Lawson, Eric Heitmann

Analysis: Overall, this is the most perplexing team to me in free agency -- I really have no idea why the front office did next to nothing to improve the team. Originally, I assumed that the 49ers were handcuffed financially while they heavily pursued Asomugha. But after Asomugha went to Philadelphia, the 49ers remained catatonic. Smith's return to San Francisco was the worst-kept secret in free agency. Although I don't disagree with bringing Smith back under these circumstances, I hardly consider it a great signing. Goodwin is a wide-bodied anchor who could be a stabilizing force in the middle of San Francisco's young line, but he isn't a high end starter. I am very high on McDonald, though. He can get after the quarterback, moves very well for a 3-4 defensive end and is probably only improving. That said, this is a team that has a wealth of needs, especially at wide receiver and in the secondary.

The 49ers could have done worse than adding Rogers as a Plan B (or Plan C) option instead of Asomugha, but I'm not confident that their secondary is even as good as it was last year. With Michael Crabtree out with another injury, it boggles my mind that the 49ers didn't see a need to bring in someone with pedigree at this position as they try to construct a passing game. San Francisco had better be confident that coach Jim Harbaugh is worth all that money it is paying him, because it hasn't given its first-year head coach much to work with.


Grade: D-
Scouts Inc. watches games, breaks down film and studies football from all angles for ESPN.com. Follow Matt Williamson on Twitter @WilliamsonNFL


an interesting perspective from a neutral 3rd party......

[ Edited by Mookster on Aug 4, 2011 at 12:46:50 ]

Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:

Originally posted by GMniner805:

Originally posted by 12b6demurrer:

Originally posted by GMniner805:
How do you let the bengals sign Lawson away for a measly 3 mil 1 year contract??

I would have locked manny up for 3 or 4 years in the 12-16 mil range, him along with smith would have been a talented duo at OLB.

Good thing you're not the GM. I've never understood the fascination with Lawson, especially considering how much money the organization paid to him in his front-loaded contract. He's making less money now than he did his first year in the league, and that's when he was considerably overvalued.

That being said, I doubt he would've gone for your deal anyway. He doesn't want to split time, he probably wants to start, and he's probably tired of the organization.

Anyone who actually knows the game of football & has watched the games on sunday understands Lawson was one of the 49ers most talented/valuable defenders.

Oh okay, I'll respond by using similar hyperbole. Anyone who actually knows the game of football and has watched the games on Sunday understands Lawson was ultimately an ineffective pass rusher who was unable to shed blocks despite his increased size, covered less effectively than the posters on this forum would have you believe, and didn't even garner a mid-tier 6th year linebacker's salary from a team with a huge need at SAM linebacker.

Oh wait, that's not hyperbole. That's the truth. If he was so great in coverage, why were we constantly burnt on the screen and the flat? A lot of that had to do with the scheme, but Manny Lawson's position is supposed to cover these plays. He, along with Haralson, never squared up or set the edge as effectively as Webzoners (who are completely football illiterate based off of what I've read here in the last few days) would think. Lawson had especially slow reaction time and didn't keep his man in front of him. Not a great recipe considering he's slow as hell.

Man, where have you been over the past two years when I needed you? LOL. You speak the truth!

Trent Baalkw: F@ck you niner fans!!! Stick to the damn plan and stop b***hing like girls.

Originally posted by Mookster:
From SI coloumn on ESPN website:

San Francisco 49ers

Key additions: Alex Smith (re-signed), Ray McDonald (re-signed), Carlos Rogers, Madieu Williams, David Akers, Jonathan Goodwin
Key losses: Aubrayo Franklin, Nate Clements, Manny Lawson, Eric Heitmann

Analysis: Overall, this is the most perplexing team to me in free agency -- I really have no idea why the front office did next to nothing to improve the team. Originally, I assumed that the 49ers were handcuffed financially while they heavily pursued Asomugha. But after Asomugha went to Philadelphia, the 49ers remained catatonic. Smith's return to San Francisco was the worst-kept secret in free agency. Although I don't disagree with bringing Smith back under these circumstances, I hardly consider it a great signing. Goodwin is a wide-bodied anchor who could be a stabilizing force in the middle of San Francisco's young line, but he isn't a high end starter. I am very high on McDonald, though. He can get after the quarterback, moves very well for a 3-4 defensive end and is probably only improving. That said, this is a team that has a wealth of needs, especially at wide receiver and in the secondary.

The 49ers could have done worse than adding Rogers as a Plan B (or Plan C) option instead of Asomugha, but I'm not confident that their secondary is even as good as it was last year. With Michael Crabtree out with another injury, it boggles my mind that the 49ers didn't see a need to bring in someone with pedigree at this position as they try to construct a passing game. San Francisco had better be confident that coach Jim Harbaugh is worth all that money it is paying him, because it hasn't given its first-year head coach much to work with.


Grade: D-
Scouts Inc. watches games, breaks down film and studies football from all angles for ESPN.com. Follow Matt Williamson on Twitter @WilliamsonNFL


an interesting perspective from a neutral 3rd party......

Too soon.

D.... not a player worth fighting over in the bunch of castoffs and scrubs he has picked up.... bargain shopping in the dented can basket....