Forty Niners New Strategy?

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

Maybe because no superstar athlete wanted to commit to Stanford or SD. This is the NFL, and he can do some things with "football" players but he can't win Superbowls without superstar athletes.

Interestingly, Bill Belichick has been winning games -- and a couple Superbowls -- mostly with players who have been notable mostly for *not* being superstar athletes. Tom Brady is a superstar, sure, but he's not an athlete (i.e., not athletic compared to most of his competition). But many Patriots starters were too [insert derogatory term here] for the teams that let them go.

Ironically, when Belichick finally assembled a team of superstar athletes, they went undefeated until they fell in the Superbowl to a team decidedly inferior in that way (i.e., a team of mostly no-names).

Arguably, Green Bay did the same last year, as a wild card team beating opponents who on paper had more superstar athletes, but did not operate as well as a team.

Not saying the Niners will win more than 4-5 games next season, but collecting a slew of superstar athletes may not make much difference. Just ask Jerry Jones...

You bring up a good point, Brady is what I call a "made superstar" he wasn't born with it physically. His mind & his arm are what makes him a superstar. You could say the same thing about Joe Montana, he wasn't drafted until the third round!

Redskins/cowboys & many other teams that try to use the Eddie D formula come up short because todays superstar athlete is a ME guy with speed!

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by fly15:

Originally posted by fakers23:
I think I know the plan is. Lose as many games as we can. Then draft Luck.

agree

i agree with both of you two. but my ? then is why waste a 2nd rounder on a qb.

Get a 'Kolb' trade for him!

trade for Orton

Originally posted by NinerBuff:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by fly15:

Originally posted by fakers23:
I think I know the plan is. Lose as many games as we can. Then draft Luck.

agree

i agree with both of you two. but my ? then is why waste a 2nd rounder on a qb.

Get a 'Kolb' trade for him!

not after the 2nd yr in the league. can't pull that off

They can trade every pick for the next two years if they really want Luck, there is always a way to get that #1 overall without tanking a season. They want to win to fill seats, so that the money rolls in so I doubt if that is the focus.

Jed York is trying to build a stadium so $ over Luck all day!

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

Maybe because no superstar athlete wanted to commit to Stanford or SD. This is the NFL, and he can do some things with "football" players but he can't win Superbowls without superstar athletes.

Interestingly, Bill Belichick has been winning games -- and a couple Superbowls -- mostly with players who have been notable mostly for *not* being superstar athletes. Tom Brady is a superstar, sure, but he's not an athlete (i.e., not athletic compared to most of his competition). But many Patriots starters were too [insert derogatory term here] for the teams that let them go.

Ironically, when Belichick finally assembled a team of superstar athletes, they went undefeated until they fell in the Superbowl to a team decidedly inferior in that way (i.e., a team of mostly no-names).

Arguably, Green Bay did the same last year, as a wild card team beating opponents who on paper had more superstar athletes, but did not operate as well as a team.

Not saying the Niners will win more than 4-5 games next season, but collecting a slew of superstar athletes may not make much difference. Just ask Jerry Jones...

You bring up a good point, Brady is what I call a "made superstar" he wasn't born with it physically. His mind & his arm are what makes him a superstar. You could say the same thing about Joe Montana, he wasn't drafted until the third round!

Redskins/cowboys & many other teams that try to use the Eddie D formula come up short because todays superstar athlete is a ME guy with speed!

Same issues with athletes vs. team in basketball. The Heat had arguably the best collection of athletes since the Bulls in their glory days, yet lost to an opponent that played better as a team (and had the grit to stand toe-to-toe with Miami). Unfortunately, it's not often these days that good NBA teams are put together -- the economics of hype and television make that very difficult, and teams are pretty boring, after all -- but it does happen from time to time. Hell, the same thing happened once upon a time with the Warriors, who beat the superstar-laden Washington Bullets in the NBA Finals in four games. If you'd placed a wager in Las Vegas that it would turn out that way, you'd have gotten 2000-1 odds...

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 28, 2011 at 15:12:00 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

That's not what this is about. It's whether teamwork and good coaching can trump superior athleticism. Often it does.

Hell, the first Niners championship was won against an opponent that was probably athletically superior, and favored to win the game. Ditto Jets vs. Baltimore a few years before. Good teamwork and the right game plan can neutralize a team of athletes who play for themselves and not as a team. Or take winning for granted.

[ Edited by 49erThrowback on Jul 28, 2011 at 15:13:11 ]

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

That's not what this is about. It's whether teamwork and good coaching can trump superior athleticism. Often it does.

Hell, the first Niners championship was won against an opponent that was probably athletically superior, and favored to win the game. Ditto Jets vs. Baltimore a few years before. Good teamwork and the right game plan can neutralize a team of athletes who play for themselves and not as a team.

Thats not at all what he said. He said good athletes are typically more ME centric. That good athletes are not typically "good football players". Guess what? everyone in the NFL is a world class athlete, that is not in question. No one on earth would argue that anything can replace efficient teamwork in football.

The point of the thread was to relate athleticism to character. They have absolutely no correlation. Teams absolutely NEED athletes to win. The 81 niners are no exception. A freakishly athletic secondary comprised of 3 rookies took them from a loser to a winner in 1 offseason.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 28, 2011 at 15:19:10 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 28, 2011 at 15:25:23 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

That's not what this is about. It's whether teamwork and good coaching can trump superior athleticism. Often it does.

Hell, the first Niners championship was won against an opponent that was probably athletically superior, and favored to win the game. Ditto Jets vs. Baltimore a few years before. Good teamwork and the right game plan can neutralize a team of athletes who play for themselves and not as a team.

Thats not at all what he said. He said good athletes are typically more ME centric. That good athletes are not typically "good football players". Guess what? everyone in the NFL is a world class athlete, that is not in question. No one on earth would argue that anything can replace efficient teamwork in football.

The point of the thread was to relate athleticism to character. They have absolutely no correlation. Teams absolutely NEED athletes to win. The 81 niners are no exception. A freakishly athletic secondary comprised of 3 rookies took them from a loser to a winner in 1 offseason.

Not talking about character, talking about the ability to play within a scheme and be coachable. It's one thing to run a 4.2 in a straight line, another to run a 4.2 in between the tackles with Ray Lewis on the other side. I'm talking about hunger!

The superstars goal is to get to the NFL and make millions, the gritty football players goal is to be better today than he was yesterday! His goal is to honor the game, hoping to be mentioned with the best someday instead of expecting to be mentioned with the best, or wonering why he isn't being mentioned with the best!

For the record, not all NFL players are world class athletes. Some are just dahm good football players!

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

That's not what this is about. It's whether teamwork and good coaching can trump superior athleticism. Often it does.

Hell, the first Niners championship was won against an opponent that was probably athletically superior, and favored to win the game. Ditto Jets vs. Baltimore a few years before. Good teamwork and the right game plan can neutralize a team of athletes who play for themselves and not as a team.

Thats not at all what he said. He said good athletes are typically more ME centric. That good athletes are not typically "good football players". Guess what? everyone in the NFL is a world class athlete, that is not in question. No one on earth would argue that anything can replace efficient teamwork in football.

The point of the thread was to relate athleticism to character. They have absolutely no correlation. Teams absolutely NEED athletes to win. The 81 niners are no exception. A freakishly athletic secondary comprised of 3 rookies took them from a loser to a winner in 1 offseason.

Not talking about character, talking about the ability to play within a scheme and be coachable. It's one thing to run a 4.2 in a straight line, another to run a 4.2 in between the tackles with Ray Lewis on the other side. I'm talking about hunger!

The superstars goal is to get to the NFL and make millions, the gritty football players goal is to be better today than he was yesterday! His goal is to honor the game, hoping to be mentioned with the best someday instead of expecting to be mentioned with the best, or wonering why he isn't being mentioned with the best!

For the record, not all NFL players are world class athletes. Some are just dahm good football players!

For the record, if you are a starter in the NFL you are a world class athlete. You don't have to be fast to be an athlete.

"Athletes are more ME focused". That is relating athleticism to character no matter how you want to spin it.

You speak of athleticism as if it takes away from hunger, coachability, humbleness, and leadership. That is the problem I have.

Vernon Davis does not at all look natural catching the ball, he definitely isn't the smartest tool in the shed. He dominates with athleticism

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 28, 2011 at 15:35:19 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Bolt is an athlete but the best in the world, come on now . Troy Polamolu is a better athlete than him hands down. It takes more than speed to be a great athlete... balance, endurance, size&speed ratio and the ability to execute physically what one envisions in their head is athleticism.

Under the Usain Bolt logic then Darius Heyward Bey must be the best athlete on the raiders

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
Now when I look at JH's background and what he has been able to do at Stanford & San Diego you can see that he never really focused on (superstar) Athelete's meaning the fastest or the strongest players.

So now he wants to make sure that he is adding "FOOTBALL PLAYERS" and not just superstar fill-in's.

Ted Ginn would probably be the best athlete on the team, however we all know he is not the best football player on the team.

Football player = smart (do as you are coached/play within the system), tough, hungry guys that get it done!

Athlete = Speed, strength, physical ability is off the charts, more ME focused.

Am I right here?

I like this if this is the plan, Because I know he didn't have the best athletes at Stanford or San Diego.

Your thoughts?

I really hate analogies like this. The best football players are usually the best athletes. Having leadership, good "character" and a clean background are bonuses, they do not make you a good football player whatsoever. The term "football player" is slowly replacing "blue collar". What does this mean? Does anyone honestly believe that Justin Smith or Heinz Ward is not an amazing athlete? Does anyone really believe that T.O. is not a good "football player"? Its a bunch of bulls**t.

Why does a good athlete have to be more ME focused as you say? How does that assumption make any sense?

I don't have a bunch of time to get into it but Usaine Bolt is probably the best athlete in the world physically, however I doubt that he would make a good football player. Meanwhile my 11 year old could probably out run or jump Tom Brady yet he is considered the best Football Player.

Just for the record T.O, & Heinz Ward are trully what a football player is! Attitude and all, T.O has it all!

Justin Smith is a hell of a football player, but an athlete... Come on now!

Tom Brady is athletic. Having a deadly accurate arm is a part of athletics. He is also not the most mobile QB but he isn't Dan Marino either.

Usain Bolt is literally not a football player, so I don't see how that example proves anything.

Your telling me Justin Smith, a 6-5 300 pound man who can run a 4.8 and play non stop all game is not a good athlete? He was a top 5 pick when he was drafted. Show me a top 5 draft pick that does not have a dominant athletic trait and I will shut up.

Bolt is an athlete but the best in the world, come on now . Troy Polamolu is a better athlete than him hands down. It takes more than speed to be a great athlete... balance, endurance, size&speed ratio and the ability to execute physically what one envisions in their head is athleticism.

Under the Usain Bolt logic then Darius Heyward Bey must be the best athlete on the raiders

Thank you. Athleticism is not speed.