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Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The coach versus player issue is one that I find most compelling. Can a coach make a player better? If not, every sports team in the world is wasting a great deal of money on coaches. Can a particular coach have more success than another with a given player? Certainly! Walsh made every QB at Stanford look like an allstar. How many of them made it in the pros? Not many. Can a coach make every QB look good? Of course not.

Harbaugh is a "let's have fun and just play" kind of coach, whereas Nolan and Singletary were intense "do it right" kind of guys. The latter tend to make players uptight and Smith does not need to be any more uptight than he already is/was.

If any coach was cut out for a situation it is Harbaugh working with Smith. If he can't get him to loosen up and play intuitively, then it isn't likely to happen--ever. That is my hope for resurrecting Smith's career.

But, the pro Smith side (for the most part) has always wanted the best group of QBs available in case Smith can't get it done. This is widely ignored by the other side who just want to call them Alexecusers...or some such nonsense.

The difference between the sides seems to be a matter of those who have written him off and will not accept another opinion...period! Then the ridicule starts and the arguments become heated. Have pro Alex people made intemporate remarks? Not many by my count.

Thank you mods for keeping the threads open and I hope you continue to do so as the debate is not lethal...just occasionally silly and circular.

According to his former QBs, Harbaugh is not an easy going king of guy. He is pedal to the metal and he will drive you-if you can't handle it...you know where the door is.
Originally posted by WildBill:


According to his former QBs, Harbaugh is not an easy going king of guy. He is pedal to the metal and he will drive you-if you can't handle it...you know where the door is.

I think there is truth mixed in here. I think he IS an easy going guy, but yes, he will show you the door if you simply can't handle the job. He will be a strong motivator and keep his need to win very firm, but he understands that QBs won't be perfect.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Playing more loosely would seem to go against Alex's cautious, deliberate nature, requiring a pretty significant transformation of his psychological makeup. I hope Harbaugh took clinical psych 101!

Alex's nature... as described long ago by Urban Meyer... was that once he is comfortable with the intricacies of the system, he is instinctual and plays loosely. Problem was, he never had a steady and competent scheme long enough to reach that level of comfort. Add to that, the extreme rigidness of Nolan + Singletary, and it is no wonder his instincts and loose play were unattainable.

The only question left is, is the wiring in his brain irrevocably set? I genuinely do not think so. In some people, it would have been. They would have given up or had a Ryan Leaf-esque mental explosion. I don't see that from Alex's actions, words, or known character make-up.

So I guess we can expect much of the same from him under another new system?

My opinion is Harbaugh should be a positive influence on Alex, but there's only so much he can do. I think Alex will improve, but I think we'll still see much of the same "WTF?" moments from him. IMO

But if he can't get it done with Harbaugh..we can finally put this saga to rest. Eitherway, I want consistency at QB whether it's with Alex or someone else.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The coach versus player issue is one that I find most compelling. Can a coach make a player better? If not, every sports team in the world is wasting a great deal of money on coaches. Can a particular coach have more success than another with a given player? Certainly! Walsh made every QB at Stanford look like an allstar. How many of them made it in the pros? Not many. Can a coach make every QB look good? Of course not.

Harbaugh is a "let's have fun and just play" kind of coach, whereas Nolan and Singletary were intense "do it right" kind of guys. The latter tend to make players uptight and Smith does not need to be any more uptight than he already is/was.

If any coach was cut out for a situation it is Harbaugh working with Smith. If he can't get him to loosen up and play intuitively, then it isn't likely to happen--ever. That is my hope for resurrecting Smith's career.

But, the pro Smith side (for the most part) has always wanted the best group of QBs available in case Smith can't get it done. This is widely ignored by the other side who just want to call them Alexecusers...or some such nonsense.

The difference between the sides seems to be a matter of those who have written him off and will not accept another opinion...period! Then the ridicule starts and the arguments become heated. Have pro Alex people made intemporate remarks? Not many by my count.

Thank you mods for keeping the threads open and I hope you continue to do so as the debate is not lethal...just occasionally silly and circular.

so basically, the pro-smith group are good, objective, intelligent guys

The anti-smith are unwavering, irrational, demons

Got ya. I'm not sure how you can criticize people who after 6 years of the same unsuccesful QB want a new one.

I mean, we gave him a shot. We supported him and he has failed time and time again. It's not like we wrote him off the second he was drafted. We rooted for him to play well. So to tell me that I'm irrational or absolute in my thinking because I wouldn't give a QB another chance after 6 years of chances...is ridiculous.

Please stop misstating others' opinions and putting words in their mouths. It's old.
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Playing more loosely would seem to go against Alex's cautious, deliberate nature, requiring a pretty significant transformation of his psychological makeup. I hope Harbaugh took clinical psych 101!

Alex's nature... as described long ago by Urban Meyer... was that once he is comfortable with the intricacies of the system, he is instinctual and plays loosely. Problem was, he never had a steady and competent scheme long enough to reach that level of comfort. Add to that, the extreme rigidness of Nolan + Singletary, and it is no wonder his instincts and loose play were unattainable.

The only question left is, is the wiring in his brain irrevocably set? I genuinely do not think so. In some people, it would have been. They would have given up or had a Ryan Leaf-esque mental explosion. I don't see that from Alex's actions, words, or known character make-up.

Let's hope his brain and psyche are still malleable! Right now, I feel like he's David Carr, Jr. Both are company guys who generally say the right things and do the right things. However, bad habits have set in for both of them, and those may be pretty hard to shake.

Good point. To me, Carr is broken from taking too many sacks and too much abuse in Houston. I see parallels in Smith that I hope can be nipped in the bud.
Originally posted by Otter:
Someone said that they were going to bump this thread in week 5. Assuming Smith is the starter and we have the first 5 weeks of the season, I'm curious. Will anyone post in here and admit they were wrong?

If Smith plays like garbage, will the supporters agree that it's time to move on?

If Smith plays well, will the detractors agree that the horrid coaching and scheme played a larger role than they would have thought?

If Smith plays great or even good for the whole season then I will eat crow and admit it in every thread.

However, not if he plays just decent, why? Because I will assess that it is because the coaches have made him better than he really is, Ala Virgil Carter and Bill Walsh.

While football is a team game a good/great QB can carry the team or at least show signs of it even if a team is bad. How many remember Montana and the Saints game before he became the defacto starter and the niners were still bad.
Originally posted by JayBee:


So I guess we can expect much of the same from him under another new system?

I think that at this point, Alex has been around systems enough to be much quicker in the learning process... and therefore much quicker to become comfortable and loose.

Originally posted by JayBee:

My opinion is Harbaugh should be a positive influence on Alex, but there's only so much he can do. I think Alex will improve, but I think we'll still see much of the same "WTF?" moments from him. IMO

I don't disagree with anything here... though I will say from lots of football observations that ALL quarterbacks have many "WTF?" moments. That's just part of being imperfect and having off-days that all athletes can have. Some just have stronger circumstances around them that make their mistakes less... costly.

Originally posted by JayBee:

But if he can't get it done with Harbaugh..we can finally put this saga to rest. Eitherway, I want consistency at QB whether it's with Alex or someone else.

Agreed!
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Playing more loosely would seem to go against Alex's cautious, deliberate nature, requiring a pretty significant transformation of his psychological makeup. I hope Harbaugh took clinical psych 101!

Alex's nature... as described long ago by Urban Meyer... was that once he is comfortable with the intricacies of the system, he is instinctual and plays loosely. Problem was, he never had a steady and competent scheme long enough to reach that level of comfort. Add to that, the extreme rigidness of Nolan + Singletary, and it is no wonder his instincts and loose play were unattainable.

The only question left is, is the wiring in his brain irrevocably set? I genuinely do not think so. In some people, it would have been. They would have given up or had a Ryan Leaf-esque mental explosion. I don't see that from Alex's actions, words, or known character make-up.

So I guess we can expect much of the same from him under another new system?

My opinion is Harbaugh should be a positive influence on Alex, but there's only so much he can do. I think Alex will improve, but I think we'll still see much of the same "WTF?" moments from him. IMO

But if he can't get it done with Harbaugh..we can finally put this saga to rest. Eitherway, I want consistency at QB whether it's with Alex or someone else.

God, I'm tired of hearing that line year after year.
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by unst4bl3:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Playing more loosely would seem to go against Alex's cautious, deliberate nature, requiring a pretty significant transformation of his psychological makeup. I hope Harbaugh took clinical psych 101!

That would be my greatest worry at this point--his not being able to loosen up. But Harbaugh, even though intense, is intense about practicing with joy and fun, rather than scowling and judging every play. He is much more likely to get Smith to loosen up, whereas Nolan and Singletary fed Smith's tendency to internalize the pressure.

Hope is not the same thing as predicting or expecting. I hope the 9ers win the super bowl next year with Smith as their QB. I expect them to be more interesting but slipping and sliding as they convert to the WCO. As we watch them it should become apparent whether it is working or Harbaugh needs to make roster changes.

Sadly, the roster changes I could see necessary include: TE (if VD can't adjust), OL (not just Rachal but also others who can't move quickly), WR (if no one steps up), and QB (if none of them catch onto what Harbaugh is doing).


I remember the steve young led niners and the wco run plays that involved some trapping and pulling, and we had semi quick Olinemen then, i wonder if our current guys are up to the task. You pose a good question/statement there.

They used to run that FB inside trap to Floyd with perfection. folks really undervalued the Niners running game during the WCO years

that's the one I was thinking of, it was a beauty, steve young would take the snap, take like a half step turn to the fb and the fb already had a full head of steam, it was so quick, so beautiful.


Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by classyfan49:
Playing more loosely would seem to go against Alex's cautious, deliberate nature, requiring a pretty significant transformation of his psychological makeup. I hope Harbaugh took clinical psych 101!

Alex's nature... as described long ago by Urban Meyer... was that once he is comfortable with the intricacies of the system, he is instinctual and plays loosely. Problem was, he never had a steady and competent scheme long enough to reach that level of comfort. Add to that, the extreme rigidness of Nolan + Singletary, and it is no wonder his instincts and loose play were unattainable.

The only question left is, is the wiring in his brain irrevocably set? I genuinely do not think so. In some people, it would have been. They would have given up or had a Ryan Leaf-esque mental explosion. I don't see that from Alex's actions, words, or known character make-up.

So I guess we can expect much of the same from him under another new system?

My opinion is Harbaugh should be a positive influence on Alex, but there's only so much he can do. I think Alex will improve, but I think we'll still see much of the same "WTF?" moments from him. IMO

But if he can't get it done with Harbaugh..we can finally put this saga to rest. Eitherway, I want consistency at QB whether it's with Alex or someone else.
With The Exceptions of the semi wtf intentional grounding (partial bad call) against the falcons, and the WTF fumble against the Eagles. Alex didn't have as many major WTF's last, compared with past seasons.

Or maybe I am forgetting some other major ones?
[ Edited by unst4bl3 on Jul 8, 2011 at 2:09 PM ]
I'd like to build the world a home and furnish it with love.

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The coach versus player issue is one that I find most compelling. Can a coach make a player better? If not, every sports team in the world is wasting a great deal of money on coaches. Can a particular coach have more success than another with a given player? Certainly! Walsh made every QB at Stanford look like an allstar. How many of them made it in the pros? Not many. Can a coach make every QB look good? Of course not.

Harbaugh is a "let's have fun and just play" kind of coach, whereas Nolan and Singletary were intense "do it right" kind of guys. The latter tend to make players uptight and Smith does not need to be any more uptight than he already is/was.

If any coach was cut out for a situation it is Harbaugh working with Smith. If he can't get him to loosen up and play intuitively, then it isn't likely to happen--ever. That is my hope for resurrecting Smith's career.

But, the pro Smith side (for the most part) has always wanted the best group of QBs available in case Smith can't get it done. This is widely ignored by the other side who just want to call them Alexecusers...or some such nonsense.

The difference between the sides seems to be a matter of those who have written him off and will not accept another opinion...period! Then the ridicule starts and the arguments become heated. Have pro Alex people made intemporate remarks? Not many by my count.

Thank you mods for keeping the threads open and I hope you continue to do so as the debate is not lethal...just occasionally silly and circular.

so basically, the pro-smith group are good, objective, intelligent guys

The anti-smith are unwavering, irrational, demons

Got ya. I'm not sure how you can criticize people who after 6 years of the same unsuccesful QB want a new one.

I mean, we gave him a shot. We supported him and he has failed time and time again. It's not like we wrote him off the second he was drafted. We rooted for him to play well. So to tell me that I'm irrational or absolute in my thinking because I wouldn't give a QB another chance after 6 years of chances...is ridiculous.

Please stop misstating others' opinions and putting words in their mouths. It's old.

He can speak for himself.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The coach versus player issue is one that I find most compelling. Can a coach make a player better? If not, every sports team in the world is wasting a great deal of money on coaches. Can a particular coach have more success than another with a given player? Certainly! Walsh made every QB at Stanford look like an allstar. How many of them made it in the pros? Not many. Can a coach make every QB look good? Of course not.

Harbaugh is a "let's have fun and just play" kind of coach, whereas Nolan and Singletary were intense "do it right" kind of guys. The latter tend to make players uptight and Smith does not need to be any more uptight than he already is/was.

If any coach was cut out for a situation it is Harbaugh working with Smith. If he can't get him to loosen up and play intuitively, then it isn't likely to happen--ever. That is my hope for resurrecting Smith's career.

But, the pro Smith side (for the most part) has always wanted the best group of QBs available in case Smith can't get it done. This is widely ignored by the other side who just want to call them Alexecusers...or some such nonsense.

The difference between the sides seems to be a matter of those who have written him off and will not accept another opinion...period! Then the ridicule starts and the arguments become heated. Have pro Alex people made intemporate remarks? Not many by my count.

Thank you mods for keeping the threads open and I hope you continue to do so as the debate is not lethal...just occasionally silly and circular.

so basically, the pro-smith group are good, objective, intelligent guys

The anti-smith are unwavering, irrational, demons

Got ya. I'm not sure how you can criticize people who after 6 years of the same unsuccesful QB want a new one.

I mean, we gave him a shot. We supported him and he has failed time and time again. It's not like we wrote him off the second he was drafted. We rooted for him to play well. So to tell me that I'm irrational or absolute in my thinking because I wouldn't give a QB another chance after 6 years of chances...is ridiculous.

Please stop misstating others' opinions and putting words in their mouths. It's old.

He can speak for himself.

Agreed. And I can speak for this online community. Consistently misstating others' positions in a hyperbolic fashion can be deemed trolling or inciting, and can result in the offender being labelled "high maintenance."
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by NineFourNiner:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The coach versus player issue is one that I find most compelling. Can a coach make a player better? If not, every sports team in the world is wasting a great deal of money on coaches. Can a particular coach have more success than another with a given player? Certainly! Walsh made every QB at Stanford look like an allstar. How many of them made it in the pros? Not many. Can a coach make every QB look good? Of course not.

Harbaugh is a "let's have fun and just play" kind of coach, whereas Nolan and Singletary were intense "do it right" kind of guys. The latter tend to make players uptight and Smith does not need to be any more uptight than he already is/was.

If any coach was cut out for a situation it is Harbaugh working with Smith. If he can't get him to loosen up and play intuitively, then it isn't likely to happen--ever. That is my hope for resurrecting Smith's career.

But, the pro Smith side (for the most part) has always wanted the best group of QBs available in case Smith can't get it done. This is widely ignored by the other side who just want to call them Alexecusers...or some such nonsense.

The difference between the sides seems to be a matter of those who have written him off and will not accept another opinion...period! Then the ridicule starts and the arguments become heated. Have pro Alex people made intemporate remarks? Not many by my count.

Thank you mods for keeping the threads open and I hope you continue to do so as the debate is not lethal...just occasionally silly and circular.

so basically, the pro-smith group are good, objective, intelligent guys

The anti-smith are unwavering, irrational, demons

Got ya. I'm not sure how you can criticize people who after 6 years of the same unsuccesful QB want a new one.

I mean, we gave him a shot. We supported him and he has failed time and time again. It's not like we wrote him off the second he was drafted. We rooted for him to play well. So to tell me that I'm irrational or absolute in my thinking because I wouldn't give a QB another chance after 6 years of chances...is ridiculous.

Please stop misstating others' opinions and putting words in their mouths. It's old.

He can speak for himself.

Done
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by WildBill:


According to his former QBs, Harbaugh is not an easy going king of guy. He is pedal to the metal and he will drive you-if you can't handle it...you know where the door is.

I think there is truth mixed in here. I think he IS an easy going guy, but yes, he will show you the door if you simply can't handle the job. He will be a strong motivator and keep his need to win very firm, but he understands that QBs won't be perfect.

Agree with Oldman9er here. Harbaugh is intense and demanding but as a positive motivator/teacher...not critic, as was the case with Nolan and Singletary. He wants everyone to have fun practicing and studying habitually. That won't be a problem for Smith.

If he has a problem it will be an inability to become a WCO QB...touch passes, reading defenses, going through progressions, and most importantly--trusting his receivers. I think he can master all of these.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Jul 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Done

And well done. I didn't see it until after I posted, though.
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