Why I am worried about bring back Jimmy Raye

Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
My favorite play was against Indy. We were backed up at our own 12 yard line, and it was 3rd and 8. Jimmy called a full back dive with Norris. Great call.

You don't like running up the middle on third & long? I can see trying it once in a while as an element of surprise, but the 49ers do it so often the defense knows it's coming.
You must understand Raye provides "value" at his position.

I just got done watching the first two games of the season and realized this. At least early on in the season, whenever the offense would need a long converted third down to be in fieldgoal range they would run a screenplay or a draw or pitch. None of them calls made any sense to me at all. From where they were at on the field, they could have throw the ball deep. If then it was picked off by a defender, it would be like a punt. To conservative the beginning of the year. But later on in the season, I noticed they would take the underneath routes and than go for it on fourth and short.

[ Edited by insanemike27 on Jan 7, 2010 at 11:30:58 ]

He is going to get a WHOLE lot of help in 2010. He will basicly be OC in name only.

Originally posted by D_Niner:
Thats much better an argument than your previous one and I sir applaud you for that.

I also think we need to look at what the O did not do to get a better picture of the differences between 08 and 09.

In 08 we had a -17 turnover ratio. In a large part, this was due to the 19 interceptions thrown by our QB's. Another part was the 8 lost fumbles by the QB. Also, this 23rd ranked O averaged 21.2 points per game under Martz.

In 09 we had a +9 turnover ratio. Part of this was made up by 11 less turnovers by the QB position alone. Now you would expect a huge drop off in points for this safe type of football, right? We averaged 20.6 points per game in 09! (that's only 0.6 points per game difference from Martz's high power O)...

Yes we did play more conservative O and the stat sheets show us as 23 total O in 08 and 27 in 09; but, when you look at the total points scored in both years and how many times we turned the ball over, we were much better off this year.

Thank YOU! You bring up some very good points about the shift in offensive philosophy from the wide-open Martz offense in early 2008 to the conservative philosophy in 2009 installed by Singletary/Raye. But to be fair, I think we'd need to compare those offenses this way to get an idea if we've really improved:

Martz offense when Hill took over as QB and Singletary became HC who demanded a more balanced attack vs. Raye's offense, perhaps, just under Smith as the QB.

I think that would be the most fair and even leans more towards Raye a bit b/c we put up more points with Alex during the Rayegun changes esp. in the second halves of games when we were down at halftime.

I do concede that turnovers play a monumental part in wins/losses and you could see all off-season Singletary preaching this to the point that both Hill and Smith looked tentative, even "scared" to throw the ball this year unless a WR was wide open. Clearly, the focus for passes was well under 15 yards even if we had a streaking WR down field, open by 20 yards with nobody around him. The “cow bell” was all about Gore and the o-line and esp. on TOP (even though we were terrible on 3rd downs, a big drop off from last year).

I was happy with the focus on holding on to the ball but NOT happy with the play-calling esp. on 1st and 2nd downs this year which results in putting both our o-line and both QB's in really bad positions. I was not happy with the run-first mentality and the desire to impose our will on the defense no matter what their strengths and weaknesses were. We were a bi-polar team, not only between the first and second halves of games but also in philosophies...balance was something we NEVER acheived this year. It was all Gore or all Alex and usually at the wrong times against the wrong opposition's strengths/weaknesses.

I think if you can combine Martz's philosophy of attacking weaknesses and creating mismatches where our QB's clearly played with a confidence (esp. Shaun Hill) and our WR's excelled along with a ball-control style of Raye that centers around TOP and protecting the ball and an OC that plays to the strengths of our players you'd have a top 12 offense for sure.

I just don't see that with Raye, I don't see it with Raye/Johnson and I don't see it with Martz. Although, had Martz stayed this year for continuity and continued to play more balanced like he did under Singletary's structure, I think Alex & Crabtree would have flourished with confidence and Morgan would have continued to shine. And of course, getting VD the ball too would really open up the defense and make more room for Gore to get his yards too.

There really is a happy medium here - we just haven't found it yet and it will be interesting to see how Singletary handles it esp. if some much better OC's are available and ones that would fit our personnel much better.

Originally posted by eastie:
With the same basic weapons to work with during the off season and a training camp to help players gel with one another, hopefully JR will see more creative ways to take advantage of player strengths, and will have access to a wider variety of play sets to utilize in game plans. Regardless, this next season will tell the tale one way or another.

I think we all agree with your initial paragraph.

But this second paragraph speaks to the assumption Raye CAN utilize the talent he has with just an off-season to work with. His career, at best, demonstrates mediocrity paired with a couple good individual positions such as TE & RB. But did this philosophy produce top offenses, a balance, playing to his team's strengths...to wins?

We had some exceptional weapons this year in Alex (in the shotgun esp. if allowed to audible), Gore on the ground and in the air (never encouraged to run off tackle), Davis, Walker, Crabtree, Morgan...even Robinson if we wanted, Hill was great last year and an offense line that proved they played much better in pass protection (only 6 sacks a 5 game period). With all these weapons, we still end up 27th and last in many offensive categories esp. in areas we were supposed to be exceptional at (running the ball and on 3rd down conversions to maintain a dominant TOP).

The bottom line is, we had some serious weapons and Raye, given all his experience, should have recognized these strengths and persuaded Singletary to utilize our talents instead of wasting it. I believe a better OC would/could have a field day with some of the weapons we have and that’s BEFORE this upcoming draft/FA market.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by jta854:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.

I don’t hate Ray. I like his philosophy, and I’m happy with the progress. But, he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.
I big part of me is excited that we are finally going to have the same coordinator two years in a row. But another smaller part of me is disappointed that Ray is the coordinator.

Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9

Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2

Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9

Lies? What did I lie about? Listen, I’m sorry if I insulted Ray, but I was merely commenting on what I thought the game plan would be vs. what it was. I expected Ray to use the shotgun more than he did.

Originally posted by insanemike27:
I just got done watching the first two games of the season and realized this. At least early on in the season, whenever the offense would need a long converted third down to be in fieldgoal range they would run a screenplay or a draw or pitch. None of them calls made any sense to me at all. From where they were at on the field, they could have throw the ball deep. If then it was picked off by a defender, it would be like a punt. To conservative the beginning of the year. But later on in the season, I noticed they would take the underneath routes and than go for it on fourth and short.

For real your saying go dep with hill at QB and no crabtree Sorry to say but the smashmouth way was the best ideal early on in the season. This was SUPPOSED to be the teams strength. Espically with Hill starting(which i approved of at the time). Alexx looked like crap in the preseason. Nobody can truthfully say they predicted Vern to do what he did. Running the ball was best bet. and it almost won a couple big games on the road. Thankfully Crabbs signs which allowed the O to open up. I would bet that we would have seen more of the same early in the season had he signed on time.

If alex get proficient playing under the center and the O will take off. Helll Jimmy does know a thing or 2 about how to feed an all world TE with Avg QB's atleast this time he has a RB!

Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
cuz he's a hard headed moron who doesn't seem to have a creative cell in his half dead brain.

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

Funny and true....

Originally posted by jta854:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by jta854:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.

I don’t hate Ray. I like his philosophy, and I’m happy with the progress. But, he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.
I big part of me is excited that we are finally going to have the same coordinator two years in a row. But another smaller part of me is disappointed that Ray is the coordinator.

Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9

Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2

Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9

Lies? What did I lie about? Listen, I’m sorry if I insulted Ray, but I was merely commenting on what I thought the game plan would be vs. what it was. I expected Ray to use the shotgun more than he did

I guess saying that you lied was a bit harsh; but, you were exagerating the truth to try and make a point with this...

Originally posted by jta854:

And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half

Then you follow it up with this...

Originally posted by jta854:

he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.

Look, I understand that J-Raye is not flashy; but, he did call a good balance of run and pass plays (including a few deep routes) in the first half. If Alex can't make good reads or deliver the ball, or the receiver can't bring in ball, Raye's play calling should not get the blame... IMO, that first half was more on the players than on the play calling...

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by jta854:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by jta854:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by jta854:
For me personally, that last game was the most frustrating game to watch in a long time. Sing talked all week how he wanted Alex Smith to have a good game so it could be a smoother off season. I expected the 49ers to come out using shot gun and throwing the ball around the field. And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half. I mean seriously, WTF? Regardless of your feelings on Smith, how is he (or any QB) supposed to be successful when he only throws the ball on 3rd and long?

The second half was better, but why not do it the whole game?

Exactly! This proves Raye has ZERO feel for the game AND shows he does not review the opposition's weaknesses - but why would he? We will impose our will on defenses so who needs to study an opponent? The Rams were 27th against the pass and the few times we attacked them resulted in TD's...all in the second half. The Seattle game, we have a PROVEN track record of dominating them on the ground so what does Raye do? He throws the whole game and Gore gets what, 4 carries that game? I just don't know how much Singletary influences Raye but his entire career is the same as our record (8-8) = average. He has PROVEN that all 75 years in the league. I'm not against continuity but even an above average OC could have taken this team to the playoffs no matter WHAT kind of offense was run.

Come on guys... I know you love to hate on a guy just to hate; but, at least give a nod to reality...

Against the Rams in the first 1/2, J-Raye called 13 run plays and 13 pass plays. Alex was sacked 2 times and also had a delay of game penalty that put us in 3rd and long a few times. The O only completed 5 of the 13 pass calls; but, none of those completions were on the deep passes that they attempted.

I don’t hate Ray. I like his philosophy, and I’m happy with the progress. But, he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.
I big part of me is excited that we are finally going to have the same coordinator two years in a row. But another smaller part of me is disappointed that Ray is the coordinator.

Then why post the lies you did above? Here's the actual play calls (pass or run / down & distance) from the game... Please notice that there were 10 first downs 6 of which a run play was called and 4 of them a pass play was called.

Series 1:
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 8
Pass 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 4
Run 1st & 10
Run 1st & 10
Pass 2nd & 9
Pass 3rd & 9

Series 2:
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 18
Pass 3rd and 15

Series 3:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 8
Pass 3rd & 10

Series 4:
Pass 1st & 10
Pass 1st & 10 (sack)
Run 2nd & 17
Alex Delay of game (-5 yards)
Run 3rc & 22

Series 5:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 4
Pass 3rd & 2
Pass 4th & 2

Series 6:
Run 1st & 10
Run 2nd & 10
Pass 3rd & 9

Lies? What did I lie about? Listen, I’m sorry if I insulted Ray, but I was merely commenting on what I thought the game plan would be vs. what it was. I expected Ray to use the shotgun more than he did

I guess saying that you lied was a bit harsh; but, you were exagerating the truth to try and make a point with this...

Originally posted by jta854:

And WTF do we get? AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! The same run first down, run second, and then a draw/screen on third down for the entire first half

Then you follow it up with this...

Originally posted by jta854:

he is just so damn stubborn. He seems to be determined to run in on first down, and the other teams know it.

Look, I understand that J-Raye is not flashy; but, he did call a good balance of run and pass plays (including a few deep routes) in the first half. If Alex can't make good reads or deliver the ball, or the receiver can't bring in ball, Raye's play calling should not get the blame... IMO, that first half was more on the players than on the play calling...

Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
cuz he's a hard headed moron who doesn't seem to have a creative cell in his half dead brain.

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

next drive

"3rd and 20? SCREEN!!!"

what games have u been watching? i would have loved a screen on 3-20 compared to what he always called which was a f*ckin draw!!!!!

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
I think bringing him back is a good idea. The only thing we haven't tried is consistency and continuity. We can keep doing this 10 Offensive Coordinators in 10 years or 15 Offensive Coordinators in 15 years but at some point you have to realize that is not going to help our team gel. We have done that now over and over enough to know it's a losing formula.

How about this? We give Alex Smith the same Offensive Coordinator and same system 2 years in a row for the first time in his entire career. Gee what a concept...

Some people want to change everything until we get to the playoffs I guess.

im on the fence whether i htink brinign back raye was a good call however. i do believe some of us will change anything so we can make the playoffs so was playcalling part of the reason why we lost games? of course. thus the reaction from everyone

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
We didnt improve on 3rd down as the season went on. We never fixed that problem. It was a problem throughout the entire season. Singletary said stuff like "the players are not executing the plays on 3rd down", but if you ask me, the problem is 3rd down playcalling.

It's hard to have 3000 packages for 3rd and long. We need to fix the line so that we can gain some ground on First down run plays... That way we can get into 2nd or 3rd and short.

I knew the right answer would be on the first page... No offence can really do anthing unless it has lagit blocking.

i don't love raye(yet) but i do like him though. he isn't the best play caller but he does a decent job specially with an offense with NO chemistry, continuity & a qb & online positions with suspect play.

i think execution is a bigger problem than the calling itself. it doesn't matter if it's raye or the best play caller alive, if the players don't execute, then the play calling doesn't matter PERIOD. you can't expect raye to call advanced plays for an offense with the problems i mentioned earlier. to me he's done the best job since n. turner, the guy who he was brought in to emulate. i will admit that he has his wtf plays & he may not be h3ll@ creative as far as calling plays but the plays he calls gets us into scoring position & gets us the points too. if i'm right the niners were 7th in redzone td(or scoring) pct.

in the 8 losses we were in all but 2. i maybe way off but i think the philly game was closer than it look but poor execution made it look worse. in the titans & vikings loss his game plan had us going back & forth, if i'm not mistaken WE had the lead going into the 4th. in the (undefeated)colts game which no one had giving us any kind of chance(most of the FANS included), we had the lead(& it wasn't back forth) going into the 4th but trick play & suspect qb play couldn't get us back the lead. in the packers & texans game, the game plan failed in the first half but with some adjustments got us back into the game again. just like usual suspect qb play made us come up short. seattle was poor execution probably too. then you add suspect REF penalty calling & that adds to raye's calling to look worse than what it is.

look i'm not saying he's the best or the future but for right know & til we find the future, he'll do. i'm not a football nut but i know what i saw this season. i seen alot of poor execution & no clutch play at all for most of the season. i just hope raye has the offense moving forward & not backwards. if it's forward, continuity, chemistry, better execution & some clutch play will go alooong way in proving me rite. GO NINERS!!! in 2010

Originally posted by smashmouth51:
He is going to get a WHOLE lot of help in 2010. He will basicly be OC in name only.

I've read somewhere (in think 9ers.com) that there was talk of brining in QB coach Johnson to help/and or have some say in the play-calling. I sure hope so, I just don't trust that Raye will change much, it was such a "hair-pulling" season having to watch that first down dive play into a pile of humanity every game.