The "How is Scot doing as GM?" Poll

Losing Allen Rossum and Kory Sheets is making me wonder more about Scott. We should have kept both men on the 53 and cut Michael Spurlock and Marques Harris.

Originally posted by NickSh49:
Losing Allen Rossum and Kory Sheets is making me wonder more about Scott. We should have kept both men on the 53 and cut Michael Spurlock and Marques Harris.

True. I found it strange that Sheets' problem was blocking just like the OLine but on the other hand we have great blocking WR's that can't catch Apparently these are untreatable afflictions.

The guy sounds as dumb as a rock every time he opens his mouth. As a matter of fact, other than maybe Charlie Manuel, he might be the least articulate front office/coach in all of professional sports. I get embarrassed for his family every time he gets in front of a mic.

Originally posted by matt49er:

Originally posted by Envy:
My opinion is that he is not performing as expected. Other teams are hampered either by a culture of failure (Lions) or by sheer idiocy in the board (Raiders). We have had a bit of both the past few years but Scott has not shown he is capable of using the opportunities he receives to improve upon what is here. For 3 years now we have consistently required upgrades on the lines. This is STILL a massive work in progress with no end in sight. All other issues are peripheral if you cannot go man to man in at the coal face.

The D line looks very good J.Smith is playing pro bowl level, Franklin is close to that and the trio of Ice, Balmer, McDonald have done a good job at RDE.
The problem is with the OL Staley/Heitman have done a nice job. going into this year the franchise had very high hopes for Baas/Rachel and rightfully so both 2nd round picks from major universities that played really well the end of last year still young developing players. The board would have blown up if the 9ers would have given up on these 2 in the offseason no one thought the problem would be OG everyone was screaming about RT which isn't great but isn't near as bad as the OG spots.

Whilst I can understand people's perception that on paper the lines look ok I don't think a GM should be so naive. I don't believe he has to be utterly ruthless but I would rather he showed some sort of leadership in managing the recruitment of the lines much better. Smith and Staley have been positive. I always believed Heitmann could play but suffered from what was around him. Apart from that we have had to wait a few years for experienced Pros like Franklin to finally get "it"...

This is also due to bad coaching and ineptitude with schemes but all teams are built in the trenches. We've had enough money and high draft picks to remedy our ailment here and yet we still have questions.

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by HessianDud:
He had a hand in overhauling the JV team we had in 2004. He's helped get us a couple superstars and a lot of really good role-players, plus some very promising young players who may still become stars (VD, I'm looking at you). While we still lack consistent depth at important positions like the OL and gamebreaking speed at skill positions, I'm still willing to give Scot the benefit of the doubt, as he only recently gained complete control over the roster.

This offseason will determine a lot for my opinion, frankly. So far, I'd say he's slightly above average.

You are right he was given full control in 08.

Balmer
Rachal
Reggie Smith

What are they doing?

He was lucked in to Crabtree pick and the Carolina trade.

He hasn't done anything in my opinion to suggest he's anything but average at best.


Though i'd vote slightly below average.

Signs justin smith and gives Soap a decent deal. Then drafts Balmer

Lets Smiley go in FA then drafts Rachal in the 2nd round

we drafted Balmer b/c Bryant Young retired

what about Josh Morgan???? 6th round

How is scot doing as our GM? It depends who we are comparing him to. He is an improvement over donahue. The donahue years hurt. The niners only have so many draft choices. Letting smiley go was probably a mistake. But we can't expect to completely rebuild like the dolphins in a short amount of time. There are only a handful of teams that were able to do this. And those teams did not have the type of roster turnover that the 49ers experienced.

After all of this, the 49ers are a QB and a couple of o lineman away from playing at a very high level.

For every example like the dolphins I can cite a team that is perpetually bad. The browns don't seem to have any light at the end of the tunnel. The rams have been bad for more than a couple of years. The bills come to mind.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by GEEK:
My response in the draft war room:

Hasn't this been the story of the 49ers for the decade?

We fail to be proactive when it comes to fixing our roster problems.

2009: Marvel Smith was an injury risk from the get-go. He retired last minute, and we signed Pashos, a mediocre RT to go up against a mediocre backup OT/OG. Added bonus of "depth" with a failure in Barry Sims OT/OG/Piece of s**t.

Maintaining the status quo and hoping Haralson and Lawson each posts double digit sacks in 2009. If not, we have the Bengals reject Ahmed Brooks to play some OLB.

Shaun Hill - the best noodle arm QB since Ken Dorsey to helm the franchise that consisted of YA, Brodie, Montana, Young, and I'll throw Garcia in there too. And if Hill doesn't work, we'll start our BUST draft pick Smith and hope he pans out.

And let's get an old f**k who's been dismissed from his OC job 10 times over to lead this offense.

How the f**k can teams like the Falcons and Dolphins turn poor seasons into a playoff season in 1 year? And the 49ers are still in year 5 of McCloughan/Nolan/Singletary era of turning this ship around?

Enough bulls**t, it's time for new front office leadership.

This is where your logic fails...both of those teams had better talent to start with when they were turned around. This team was the absolute worst team in the NFL in 2005, now we are respectable, with a pretty strong defense. We are headed in the right direction, but you are comparing apples to oranges, a mistake made often on these forums.

Apples to oranges? Let's take a look at the players, shall we? For the sake of time, let's analyze the Dolphins and 49ers.

2007 Dolphins QB:

Cleo Lemon
Trent Green
John Beck

2008 Dolphins QB:

Chad Pennington
Chad Henne

Difference: New starter and backup within one season

2007 Dolphins RB:

Jesse Chatman
Ronnie Brown

2008 Dolphins RB:

Ricky Williams
Ronnie Brown

Difference: New backup, more effective scheme with new OC

2007 Dolphins WR/TE:

Marty Booker
Ted Ginn Jr
Chris Chambers
David Martin


2008 Dolphins WR/TE:

Ted Ginn Jr.
Greg Carmello
Davone Bess
Anthony Fasano
David Martin

Difference: Two new WRs, and a new starting TE.

2007 Dolphins OL:

LT: Vernon Carey
LG: Chris Lewinski
OC: Samson Satele
RG: Rex Hadnot
RT: LJ Shelton

2008 Dolphins OL:

LT: Jake Long
LG: Justin Smiley
OC: Samson Satele
RG: Ikechuku Ndukwe
RT: Vernon Carey

Difference: Three new starters on offense, switched Carey to RT.

2007 Dolphins DL:

Vonnie Holiday
Keith Traylor
Mike Roth
Jason Taylor (DE/OLB)

2008 Dolphins DL

Kendall Langford
Jason Ferguson
Vonnie Holiday

Difference: 2 new starters in 3-4 scheme

----

I'll stop right here and give a summary of all the positions.

In the off-season for the 2008 season, the Dolphins made a ton of personal moves. All in all, the dolphins had roughly 13-16 new starters and they made the playoffs.

While Parcells brought a lot of his former players on board, as well as a former position coach to become the Head Coach, they went through an overall and made the playoffs in one year.

I want a GM that has connections around the league. Someone who's willing to do to be aggressive and proactive when it comes to acquiring legit talent.

It's not apples to oranges - both are NFL teams. Both were in the s**tter. And the Dolphins got out of it in one year, while we can barely maintain a .500 record in our best years in recent time.

Originally posted by fister30:
How is scot doing as our GM? It depends who we are comparing him to. He is an improvement over donahue. The donahue years hurt. The niners only have so many draft choices. Letting smiley go was probably a mistake. But we can't expect to completely rebuild like the dolphins in a short amount of time. There are only a handful of teams that were able to do this. And those teams did not have the type of roster turnover that the 49ers experienced.

After all of this, the 49ers are a QB and a couple of o lineman away from playing at a very high level.

For every example like the dolphins I can cite a team that is perpetually bad. The browns don't seem to have any light at the end of the tunnel. The rams have been bad for more than a couple of years. The bills come to mind.

Those are good examples, but why should we lower the bar and compare Scot McCloughan's work to mediocre and bad football teams?

It's like saying you got a C on a test. Half the class did worse off, but half of the class also got a higher grade than you. Half glass empty, half glass full.

I'll give McCloughan another off-season to turn this around with Singletary as coach, but my patience is running out with him.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by GEEK:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by GEEK:
My response in the draft war room:

Hasn't this been the story of the 49ers for the decade?

We fail to be proactive when it comes to fixing our roster problems.

2009: Marvel Smith was an injury risk from the get-go. He retired last minute, and we signed Pashos, a mediocre RT to go up against a mediocre backup OT/OG. Added bonus of "depth" with a failure in Barry Sims OT/OG/Piece of s**t.

Maintaining the status quo and hoping Haralson and Lawson each posts double digit sacks in 2009. If not, we have the Bengals reject Ahmed Brooks to play some OLB.

Shaun Hill - the best noodle arm QB since Ken Dorsey to helm the franchise that consisted of YA, Brodie, Montana, Young, and I'll throw Garcia in there too. And if Hill doesn't work, we'll start our BUST draft pick Smith and hope he pans out.

And let's get an old f**k who's been dismissed from his OC job 10 times over to lead this offense.

How the f**k can teams like the Falcons and Dolphins turn poor seasons into a playoff season in 1 year? And the 49ers are still in year 5 of McCloughan/Nolan/Singletary era of turning this ship around?

Enough bulls**t, it's time for new front office leadership.

This is where your logic fails...both of those teams had better talent to start with when they were turned around. This team was the absolute worst team in the NFL in 2005, now we are respectable, with a pretty strong defense. We are headed in the right direction, but you are comparing apples to oranges, a mistake made often on these forums.

Apples to oranges? Let's take a look at the players, shall we? For the sake of time, let's analyze the Dolphins and 49ers.

2007 Dolphins QB:

Cleo Lemon
Trent Green
John Beck

2008 Dolphins QB:

Chad Pennington
Chad Henne

Difference: New starter and backup within one season

2007 Dolphins RB:

Jesse Chatman
Ronnie Brown

2008 Dolphins RB:

Ricky Williams
Ronnie Brown

Difference: New backup, more effective scheme with new OC

2007 Dolphins WR/TE:

Marty Booker
Ted Ginn Jr
Chris Chambers
David Martin


2008 Dolphins WR/TE:

Ted Ginn Jr.
Greg Carmello
Davone Bess
Anthony Fasano
David Martin

Difference: Two new WRs, and a new starting TE.

2007 Dolphins OL:

LT: Vernon Carey
LG: Chris Lewinski
OC: Samson Satele
RG: Rex Hadnot
RT: LJ Shelton

2008 Dolphins OL:

LT: Jake Long
LG: Justin Smiley
OC: Samson Satele
RG: Ikechuku Ndukwe
RT: Vernon Carey

Difference: Three new starters on offense, switched Carey to RT.

2007 Dolphins DL:

Vonnie Holiday
Keith Traylor
Mike Roth
Jason Taylor (DE/OLB)

2008 Dolphins DL

Kendall Langford
Jason Ferguson
Vonnie Holiday

Difference: 2 new starters in 3-4 scheme

----

I'll stop right here and give a summary of all the positions.

In the off-season for the 2008 season, the Dolphins made a ton of personal moves. All in all, the dolphins had roughly 13-16 new starters and they made the playoffs.

While Parcells brought a lot of his former players on board, as well as a former position coach to become the Head Coach, they went through an overall and made the playoffs in one year.

I want a GM that has connections around the league. Someone who's willing to do to be aggressive and proactive when it comes to acquiring legit talent.

It's not apples to oranges - both are NFL teams. Both were in the s**tter. And the Dolphins got out of it in one year, while we can barely maintain a .500 record in our best years in recent time.

I like the analysis but much of what you're discussion here - personnel decisions, schemes, who get's cut, etc. has more to do with the coaching staff than it does with the GM.

Let's flush out what not being stated here; a GM needs to be able to pick his coach and they need to be on the same page philosophically to run a team. Walsh/McVay is probably the strongest example we have here. Parcells helped identify a great coach who then in turn identified a great coaching staff and scouts who then help identified not just good players, but players who FIT into their scheme.

We have a GM that has been selecting players for most of his professional career that fit the WCO. Even when his tenure started with the 49ers, McCarthy was going to institute that system. The problem is creating an hierarchy where the coach is a top the food chain and the GM essentially acts as #2. Despite all the talk about Scott and Nolan being in sync, it's clear that they weren't when you look at the players on the field.

Nolan was trying to win now and Scot was trying to build for the future. Nolan was only credible evaluator for D and Scot had to work with diff coordinators every year and select players for a new system, each year.. That philosophy set us up for the tragic and failed "best player available" philosophy which doesn't tailor player choice for a particular system.

I think this one is actually on ownership being a little naive about football. Again the mistake has been made where we've selected a coach who can "lead" but not someone who has the football chops/experience to help (1) select coaching staff that will be able to assist with the X/Os and (2) hold that staff accountable for player choice and development. The dynamics of this relationship IMHO would inevitably create a failed team if the coach didn't make good coaching/personnel decisions - down to the position coaches.

This is something Nolan could only do by finding a former offensive HC (Turner/Martz). Is that the formula the 49ers need? Possibly but there's always a risk that the OC selection will be a HC candidate; and this is where I fault the GM......

If you have a rookie HC, you need to help him craft his coaching staff. You need to be in the same page and ensure that your draft and free agent selections are being developed and used properly. As GM it's your sole responsibility to help rudder the ship and when you see things going off kilter, you should discuss with the HC weakness and strengths. Singletary has a stronger personality that Scot and more legitimacy despite being a rookie. So the 49ers get rid of the top guy, but leave most of his staff intact.

The recurring problems the 49ers had with player selection and development had less to do with Nolan the personnel guy, and more to do with his staffing choices. Of course he made better choices for his defensive staff because he was closer to that part of the game. Offense? His answer again was to just put someone else in charge.

For Singletary it's a little worse - finds an OC and TELLS him what he wants to do, on top of asking him to work with coaches already in place who have been TERRIBLE for player development. Until the GM has real power in this organization and actually has the ability to direct the coach to revamp it's supporting coaching staff, we will continue to pick players and they will continue to underachieve.

Great points.

So how to do fix it, and is Scot the long-term answer at GM?

How can he be doing a great job if the niners are still average

A "D" grade at best. Much of the grade I will attribute to his work with Nolan, and say that he had enough influence to be culpable for many of the bad player personnel moves.

The team has certainly improved its' talent level, but also had unprecedented cap money to play with since 2007. We have added two premium free agents: Nate Clements (who has not been selected to the Pro-Bowl since coming to the 49ers, and has not been worth the huge contract), and Justin Smith (who has been very good this year, but plays at position of moderate impact...compared to QB, WR, etc). Some of the other acquisitions have been decent to good (Allen, Harris, M. Lewis, Franklin, Bly, Norris, S. Hill), and others have been abominable (Jennings, M. Smith, O'Sullivan, D. Jackson).

My fault with Scot is in the draft. The Niners hit gold with Willis and Gore, and....no one else. Meanwhile, the team is littered with players who have busted, are on the road to bust, or may still bust (I'll wait to see how V. Davis finishes the year).

There have been some decent value picks: Staley, Goldson, Morgan.

But the rest: Yikes!!! Just look at the 2008 draft, as an example, with the first four selections:
Balmer, Rachal, Smith, Wallace. The fifth rounder was lost due to tampering with the Bears.

I went back to the 2008 draft folder to see who I had on the board when the Niners' selected. My value board for the 2008 draft with the Niners on the clock was: Donnie Avery, Tracy Porter, Andre Caldwell, John Sullivan.

Which group of four players would you have selected?

The draft is an inact science, and GM's are going to miss on players. It happens to the very best. But, the amount of players making very little impact is frightening, and that is why I have been calling for his head for some time now.

P.S. The Glen Coffee pick still mystifies me. The team has massive problems with the OL, and can use a starter with a top 75 pick. Instead, the team drafts a backup RB. Think the team could use a Louis Vasquez in the future?

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
A "D" grade at best. Much of the grade I will attribute to his work with Nolan, and say that he had enough influence to be culpable for many of the bad player personnel moves.

The team has certainly improved its' talent level, but also had unprecedented cap money to play with since 2007. We have added two premium free agents: Nate Clements (who has not been selected to the Pro-Bowl since coming to the 49ers, and has not been worth the huge contract), and Justin Smith (who has been very good this year, but plays at position of moderate impact...compared to QB, WR, etc). Some of the other acquisitions have been decent to good (Allen, Harris, M. Lewis, Franklin, Bly, Norris, S. Hill), and others have been abominable (Jennings, M. Smith, O'Sullivan, D. Jackson).

My fault with Scot is in the draft. The Niners hit gold with Willis and Gore, and....no one else. Meanwhile, the team is littered with players who have busted, are on the road to bust, or may still bust (I'll wait to see how V. Davis finishes the year).

There have been some decent value picks: Staley, Goldson, Morgan.

But the rest: Yikes!!! Just look at the 2008 draft, as an example, with the first four selections:
Balmer, Rachal, Smith, Wallace. The fifth rounder was lost due to tampering with the Bears.

I went back to the 2008 draft folder to see who I had on the board when the Niners' selected. My value board for the 2008 draft with the Niners on the clock was: Donnie Avery, Tracy Porter, Andre Caldwell, John Sullivan.

Which group of four players would you have selected?

The draft is an inact science, and GM's are going to miss on players. It happens to the very best. But, the amount of players making very little impact is frightening, and that is why I have been calling for his head for some time now.

P.S. The Glen Coffee pick still mystifies me. The team has massive problems with the OL, and can use a starter with a top 75 pick. Instead, the team drafts a backup RB. Think the team could use a Louis Vasquez in the future?

When your star RB has ankes made of glass, it isn't a bad idea to draft a solid back-up. I'm just not sure Coffee was the right guy.

Given when he started, the 9ers were the worst time in the league and now they're in the middle of the pack, some would say he deserves a solid grade. However, when you factor in the high draft picks and salary cap room, he has not be acceptable. Yes, the niners have a few key players, players that I believe can be stars on champion ship level teams. But, they still have way too many holes. It's not logical to expect an inexperience owner, an inexperience gm and an inexperience hc to lead a team to the highest level. Holmgren mosty likely still wants to coach (not sold on him as a telent evaluator). They need a Carmen Policy/Ron Wolf type to oversee everything. And this needs to be done asap.

Originally posted by ptw1:
Given when he started, the 9ers were the worst time in the league and now they're in the middle of the pack, some would say he deserves a solid grade. However, when you factor in the high draft picks and salary cap room, he has not be acceptable. Yes, the niners have a few key players, players that I believe can be stars on champion ship level teams. But, they still have way too many holes. It's not logical to expect an inexperience owner, an inexperience gm and an inexperience hc to lead a team to the highest level. Holmgren mosty likely still wants to coach (not sold on him as a telent evaluator). They need a Carmen Policy/Ron Wolf type to oversee everything. And this needs to be done asap.

A very good assessment. Most people forget how talentless the team was when he took over. Still, the results just aren't there even though I think people's expectations were too high after the 9ers hot start.