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YungBird
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Originally posted by Jersey9er:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by Jersey9er:
Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
Originally posted by cNiner:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by NinerFaithful:
We need to bring back Jeff Garica, even at his age he's better than all our QB combined.He has valuable experience and a former pro-bowler, he can take the reins until next years draft or until Davis or Smith mature.
that's what you got out of that article? how bizarre.
it tells me a lot about sing that, he has no clue about Offenses, cuz he said that Garcia not much of unupgrade from hill. Then again i don't think Tom Brady will not do well behind our OL.
Ray is the problem and the OL , Hill will give less cuz of his arm. he had a weak arm last year, hill won with his weak ass arm last year , this year but not with this week ass play calling and OL.
I understand the argument...but ask Rodgers about playing behind a garbage Oline....He's still winning games and putting up good numbers...or ask Rothlisberger about Garbage Olines...oh yeah he won the superbowl despite the poor play upfront. I undestand it takes the whole unit in order to be successful but...good QB's can make plays despite the obstacles...face it Hill does not fit in that category....
Preach on brotha
. I say the exact same thing, and i'm including stats. i wanna put that bad o-line all their fault excuse to rest right now, by showing qb's with the most sacks, their record, and their td, and yards;
Top leaders in Sacks which means horrible o-lines, like our fans say, so i'm using our own reasons that it's all the o-line to see if any other teams are being productive while gettin sacked all the time.
1. Rodgers: 25 sacks, 8tds, 1456 yards, 291.2yds game., rating, 104.1, record 3-2
2. Big Ben : 16 sacks, 10tds, 1887yds, 314.5yds game, rating 104.5, record 4-2
3. Shaun Hill: 16 sacks, 5tds, 898 yards, 179.6yds game, rating 80.7, record 3-2
Now i used Roth and Rodgers, because they are all on teams with horrible o-lines, and are winning teams just like us. The proof is in the numbers, depite the hurries out the pocket, despite protection breaking down. Big Ben led the league in getting sacked last year with 46, but hmmmm, didnt they win the superbowl. I'm just saying lets stop with all the o-line excuses. and it's all the 0line.
yes hill has produced as i will continue to say, but i dont think he's done enough for our team to be successful. Good QB's make the throws and the plays even when the line breaks down, as you can see above.
Too bad we don't have Rothlisberger or Rodgers. I wouldn't mind having a Manning or a brady either.
Hell no, i wouldnt mind having one of them either. I'm not knocking Hill, just saying he's not putting up what he should, and people need to stop making excuses for him. Those that say a bad o-line is the main reason he is failing is false. it is one of the reasons dont get me wrong, but he is also a part of the problem, thats all im trying to say.
Hill is the starter, and honestly barring injury i want him to finish the entire season. Only because if he played a full season, and is unsuccessful, then i dont think he'll ever start again. And no one can use the excuse not played a full season, or make a winning record over a 4 year span. I just want our team to win. I wasnt too excited with the three wins because i felt that we were gonna win those games. the main game i actually liked was minnesotta, and atlanta. not because we lost both games, but in each game, both teams refused to deal with what we gave them. Both teams had no problem taking advantage of our weaknesses, and know how to succeed in the turnover margin.
We played 2 good teams so far in my opinion, with the exception of the Cards starting to get it back together now. I'm more excited about all the games outside our division because i think thats what truly tells what your team is made of. When a team can take you out of your comfort zone, and you still produce.
With a week off, this sunday WILL say a whole lot about our team.
You must also note that we don't have a Greg Jennings/Driver or a Hines Ward/Santonio Holmes on the team. Honestly our WR's suck compared to both of those teams, it's already pretty bad that Hill has limited skills on top of that our WR's can't get open. Bruce is old and slow, Morgan has been lazy and hasn't proved to be a true #1..hopefully now that Crabtree is taking over he can provide that spark.
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49ersking
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For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
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mrgneissguy
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I keep seeing recurring themes in all of these QB threads, aside from the obvious Hill vs. Smith debate and to a lesser extent the “let’s give Davis a shot” arguments. And I’ve had a couple of thoughts that keep popping up and never really knew a good place to post them. From seeing some of the replies in here, I suppose this is as good of a place as any.
First, I’ve seen a lot of posts regarding Raye and the offensive play calling. It’s too conservative, it’s run first, he’s handcuffing Hill, etc., etc., etc. In a nutshell, a lot of folks here think he’s making play calls that are too vanilla, too predictable, and do not allow Hill (and presumably any QB) to have much success. I look back through the games this year, including pre-season, and am a little confused. The offensive possessions that looked the most dynamic were those where Nate Davis was the QB. This is not an argument to say that he was/is the better QB, and my point has nothing to do with whether it was against the third string or first string defense. It wasn’t just Davis, the play calling seemed more dynamic. I’ve read where because he had not had the reps in training camp, that they were limiting the offense some. But yet the offense appeared to me to be more varied, less predictable, and more dynamic when he was playing than any other time this year, pre-season or regular season. My theory is that they wanted t get a good look at him, and therefore needed to be heavier on passing plays than they normally would. But it worked…the offense looked good, the running game worked, they sustained drives and scored touchdowns. If that was supposed to be simplified for Davis, why does the play calling for Hill seem even more simplified? What does that say about Hill, Raye, and/or Sing?
Second, there is a group that says we should bypass Smith and throw Davis in game(s) where Hill is struggling, like the Atlanta game. And as much as it pains me to lean towards the Ceadderman’s argument I have to here. Don’t get me wrong, contrary to what appears to be Ceadderman’s stance (sorry if I’ve interpreted your posts incorrectly), I’m a big fan of Nate Davis and am convinced that he will be a very good QB in this league. I am a Ball State Alum, live within 10 miles of Ball State’s stadium, and along with my wife and daughters, watched Davis play, develop, and grow for his three years here. However, I do not believe that it would be possible or wise for him to get in the game due to a blowout (either direction) scenario. This has nothing to do with his ability, and has everything to do with the third QB rule. For this, I am assuming that Davis is being listed as the emergency #3 QB, and not taking up one of the active roster spots. The league allows each team to have a set number of active players each week. If no more than two of those players are quarterbacks, the team may designate an extra player as its emergency third quarterback. If that player enters the game prior to the fourth quarter, then the first two quarterbacks on the roster are prohibited from returning to the game at any position at any time. In other words, as much as I’d like to see him play, as long as Davis is listed as the third QB, unless he is being listed as one of the active players, I would not put him in the game, barring injury to both Hill and Smith. If he were to get injured, there would be no QB left to play. And I don’t know what they’d do then…wildcat for the rest of the game?
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Afrikan
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Originally posted by Jersey9er:
Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
Originally posted by cNiner:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by NinerFaithful:
We need to bring back Jeff Garica, even at his age he's better than all our QB combined.He has valuable experience and a former pro-bowler, he can take the reins until next years draft or until Davis or Smith mature.
that's what you got out of that article? how bizarre.
it tells me a lot about sing that, he has no clue about Offenses, cuz he said that Garcia not much of unupgrade from hill. Then again i don't think Tom Brady will not do well behind our OL.
Ray is the problem and the OL , Hill will give less cuz of his arm. he had a weak arm last year, hill won with his weak ass arm last year , this year but not with this week ass play calling and OL.
I understand the argument...but ask Rodgers about playing behind a garbage Oline....He's still winning games and putting up good numbers...or ask Rothlisberger about Garbage Olines...oh yeah he won the superbowl despite the poor play upfront. I undestand it takes the whole unit in order to be successful but...good QB's can make plays despite the obstacles...face it Hill does not fit in that category....
Preach on brotha. I say the exact same thing, and i'm including stats. i wanna put that bad o-line all their fault excuse to rest right now, by showing qb's with the most sacks, their record, and their td, and yards;
Top leaders in Sacks which means horrible o-lines, like our fans say, so i'm using our own reasons that it's all the o-line to see if any other teams are being productive while gettin sacked all the time.
1. Rodgers: 25 sacks, 8tds, 1456 yards, 291.2yds game., rating, 104.1, record 3-2
2. Big Ben : 16 sacks, 10tds, 1887yds, 314.5yds game, rating 104.5, record 4-2
3. Shaun Hill: 16 sacks, 5tds, 898 yards, 179.6yds game, rating 80.7, record 3-2
Now i used Roth and Rodgers, because they are all on teams with horrible o-lines, and are winning teams just like us. The proof is in the numbers, depite the hurries out the pocket, despite protection breaking down. Big Ben led the league in getting sacked last year with 46, but hmmmm, didnt they win the superbowl. I'm just saying lets stop with all the o-line excuses. and it's all the 0line.
yes hill has produced as i will continue to say, but i dont think he's done enough for our team to be successful. Good QB's make the throws and the plays even when the line breaks down, as you can see above.
on top of both of them having better, faster WRs that can stretch the field.....I think when looking at stats like these....I think to be fair, you also have to look at the # of attempts......so
through 6 games Big Ben has 207 attempts
through 5 games Rodgers has 164 attempts
through 5 games Shaun has 144 attempts (20 less attempts than Rodgers..that's almost like one game)
With Martz last year, he had our offense attacking the defense through passes at any down.......this year it seems we only use the pass if couldn't get the first down, after running it 2 straight times.......then we try to pass more (as far as attacking) when we are behind in the game.
I wouldn't mind if we were less predictable on offense....I think this also would help the Oline against blitzers and pass rushers......and the Oline can use all the help it can get.
[ Edited by Afrikan on Oct 20, 2009 at 10:13 AM ]
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jimmythegreekjr
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Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
Singletary also said that you can't evaluate the QB if the Oline is not in place. In other words, how can Shaun Hill be evaluated as a winner if our Oline sucks. Is Singletary just being loyal to Hill and believe that he owes
him for last year or is Hill really a winner. Is Shaun Hill the type that would succeed if you threw in the starting lineup in New England?
Was it Mike Martz's offense combined with Hill not making as many mistakes as Just Turn it Over Osullivan that got Mike Singletary the head coaching job?
Is it the defense and special teams play early
this season that carried us?
If the Oline does not give Shaun Hill time this season, we have to wait until next year revamp the Oline, fire some coaches, start Hill, and then evaluate him.
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SJniner7
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Originally posted by jimmythegreekjr:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
Singletary also said that you can't evaluate the QB if the Oline is not in place. In other words, how can Shaun Hill be evaluated as a winner if our Oline sucks. Is Singletary just being loyal to Hill and believe that he owes him for last year or is Hill really a winner. Is Shaun Hill the type that would succeed if you threw in the starting lineup in New England?
Was it Mike Martz's offense combined with Hill not making as many mistakes as Just Turn it Over Osullivan that got Mike Singletary the head coaching job?
Is it the defense and special teams play early this season that carried us?
If the Oline does not give Shaun Hill time this season, we have to wait until next year revamp the Oline, fire some coaches, start Hill, and then evaluate him.
Cassel provides a great example of this. Last year, he looked like a total stud on NE and I remember even people here were drooling over a possible trade. Now look at him in KC. If you never saw him last year, you would never think he led the patriots to 11-5 the previous year.
Can someone please find the average yardage we have needed on third downs? I bet its high. I was scrolling through the transcript of the seattle game last night, and I regularly read 3rd and 8 or more
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Method
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Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
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B650
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Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
He has exactly what he wants. His OC and QB are both puppets. Sure, Hill is a winner. What if we're 3-4? Is he still a winner? What makes a QB a winner to begin with? Does throwing for 180 yards and a TD a game make you a winner? Because I'm not seeing what Singletary is seeing.
This isn't the '85 Bears or '00 Ravens. The sooner Singletary realizes this, the better. Let's see what happens in Houston.
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Afrikan
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Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
its funny you say that Method....
I remember last year after having a good start after taking of the starting QB job...Hill was 3-3 with a couple of close loses...and played through those series of games with some of the best QB this team had seen in a while.....but on his 7th game against the Rams, Singletary was ready Bench him...as well as Choke him (as he said).
what does that tell you.....if Hill is really holding this team back, Singletary will put someone else in there who will perform....
its funny but I believe most of the Singletary hate here at the zone comes from the Pro Alex squad who hate the fact that Sing won't let Alex pway.
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jimmythegreekjr
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I will say this: Last year when the 49ers were 2-5 and the 49ers laid a duck with JTo Osullivan in the first half of Singletary's first game, he put Shaun Hill in. The 49ers were 5-4 with Shaun Hill as QB, Singletary as HC, and Mike Martz as OC, which was good considering the circumstances. But these wins were against teams that didn't take the 49ers seriously enough. Two of the 5 wins last year against the RAMS, one at home against Washiington, and they scored only 10 points in the win at Buffalo.
During camp this year, the competition was close for QB - too close that Singletary decided Shaun Hill because he knows what he can do (and also helped him get the HC job using Martz's offense). Singletary is loyal - but him and martz has oppisote philosophies.
However, the expectations are higher this year. The defense, special teams, and playing two weak teams are the reason we are 3-2 and not 0-5. It's appears that Jimmy Raye's offensive philosophy is not designed well enough for the QB to release the ball quickly enough and with our offensive line - offense is crap. Which means Shaun Hill was slightly better suited with Martz's offense - not very good, but good enough to win some games.
Does this mean that Smith or Davis is better suited for this offense? Possibly. We have seen a lot of Nate Davis in preseason, but not enough of Smith.
Remember two of our wins were against St Louis WITH Kyle Boller and injury depleted Seattle WITHOUT Hasslebeck - BOTH at home.
The defense kept us in Arizona and Minnesota. If we played the Cardinal's again today we'd lose since they have been playing better.
Singletary will stick with Shaun Hill as long as he can until the season is lost - where there no possibility of post-season.
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Ceadderman
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Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
its funny you say that Method....
I remember last year after having a good start after taking of the starting QB job...Hill was 3-3 with a couple of close loses...and played through those series of games with some of the best QB this team had seen in a while.....but on his 7th game against the Rams, Singletary was ready Bench him...as well as Choke him (as he said).
what does that tell you.....if Hill is really holding this team back, Singletary will put someone else in there who will perform....
its funny but I believe most of the Singletary hate here at the zone comes from the Pro Alex squad who hate the fact that Sing won't let Alex pway.
Dude don't act like an 8 year old... oh hold up I know 8 year olds that act more mature than that garbage Af. You're better than that so please can we act like it? Thanks.
If you can't see why people are not enamored with Sing at the moment then you need to put down the Kool-Aid. Since when did we have to adhere to your rules of conduct regarding anyone. I sincerely doubt that you even do. Given your immense dislike for both Nolan and Smith. It even shows in how you attack the character of those who dare question the moves that Sing has made over the last few weeks. Though I believe that Sheets was not one of those for which he's to blame. That's entirely on McCloughan.
~Ceadder
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Afrikan
- Veteran
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- Posts: 21,477
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
its funny you say that Method....
I remember last year after having a good start after taking of the starting QB job...Hill was 3-3 with a couple of close loses...and played through those series of games with some of the best QB this team had seen in a while.....but on his 7th game against the Rams, Singletary was ready Bench him...as well as Choke him (as he said).
what does that tell you.....if Hill is really holding this team back, Singletary will put someone else in there who will perform....
its funny but I believe most of the Singletary hate here at the zone comes from the Pro Alex squad who hate the fact that Sing won't let Alex pway.
Dude don't act like an 8 year old... oh hold up I know 8 year olds that act more mature than that garbage Af. You're better than that so please can we act like it? Thanks.
If you can't see why people are not enamored with Sing at the moment then you need to put down the Kool-Aid. Since when did we have to adhere to your rules of conduct regarding anyone. I sincerely doubt that you even do. Given your immense dislike for both Nolan and Smith. It even shows in how you attack the character of those who dare question the moves that Sing has made over the last few weeks. Though I believe that Sheets was not one of those for which he's to blame. That's entirely on McCloughan.
~Ceadder
no, I've switched up for
specific posters.....ones who unfortunately act like "8 year olds" with some of their posts.......which includes you Ceadder.
.I was kool with it for a WHILE, but if the Mods can't do anything about the constant trolling.....because of the forum rules....I'll join in on the fun....
when ever yall are ready to be respectful about our players, I'll join the party, regarding certain posters......till then cry on.
Quote:
It even shows in how you attack the character of those who dare question the moves that Sing has made over the last few weeks.
ummm...want to remind me....the last time I questioned someones character was BackonTop, when he called Shaun Hill a slacker.
we have this thing over there at MMA forum Sherdog regarding "fighter bashing" there is nothing wrong with criticizing someone's play....be it MMA or Football or what ever....but then there is obvious trolling and player bashing that can ruin legit threads..... and since there is no ignore function here....yet.....I believe that type of forum rule would a benefit for NinerTalk part of the Zone.
and believe me Alex,....umm. I mean Ceaderr, if "Alex" is staring in a couple of weeks for what ever reason...you are going to want
this type of Forum rule around....and that is an understatement.
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Afrikan
- Veteran
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- Posts: 21,477
Originally posted by ObePwnD:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Method:
Originally posted by B650:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
For what's it's worth, Singletary said this on KNBR this AM:
"Shaun Hill is Mr.Consistent, he is a winner"
He further added, & no surprise here, that the OLINE needs to give him more time.
I highly doubt if there will be any changes at the QB position after those stmts...at least near term.
He consistently sucks.
Singletary is a good coach, but he's way too hard-willed with the QB. I never see him talk down to Hill like he does to everyone else, guess it's everyone else's fault and never Hills.
its funny you say that Method....
I remember last year after having a good start after taking of the starting QB job...Hill was 3-3 with a couple of close loses...and played through those series of games with some of the best QB this team had seen in a while.....but on his 7th game against the Rams, Singletary was ready Bench him...as well as Choke him (as he said).
what does that tell you.....if Hill is really holding this team back, Singletary will put someone else in there who will perform....
its funny but I believe most of the Singletary hate here at the zone comes from the Pro Alex squad who hate the fact that Sing won't let Alex pway.
Dude don't act like an 8 year old... oh hold up I know 8 year olds that act more mature than that garbage Af. You're better than that so please can we act like it? Thanks.
If you can't see why people are not enamored with Sing at the moment then you need to put down the Kool-Aid. Since when did we have to adhere to your rules of conduct regarding anyone. I sincerely doubt that you even do. Given your immense dislike for both Nolan and Smith. It even shows in how you attack the character of those who dare question the moves that Sing has made over the last few weeks. Though I believe that Sheets was not one of those for which he's to blame. That's entirely on McCloughan.
~Ceadder
no, I've switched up for specific posters.....ones who unfortunately act like "8 year olds" with some of their posts.......which includes you Ceadder.
.I was kool with it for a WHILE, but if the Mods can't do anything about the constant trolling.....because of the forum rules....I'll join in on the fun....
when ever yall are ready to be respectful about our players, I'll join the party, regarding certain posters......till then cry on.
Quote:
It even shows in how you attack the character of those who dare question the moves that Sing has made over the last few weeks.
ummm...want to remind me....the last time I questioned someones character was BackonTop, when he called Shaun Hill a slacker.
we have this thing over there at MMA forum Sherdog regarding "fighter bashing" there is nothing wrong with criticizing someone's play....be it MMA or Football or what ever....but then there is obvious trolling and player bashing that can ruin legit threads..... and since there is no ignore function here....yet.....I believe that type of forum rule would a benefit for NinerTalk part of the Zone.
and believe me Alex,....umm. I mean Ceaderr, if "Alex" is staring in a couple of weeks for what ever reason...you are going to want this type of Forum rule around....and that is an understatement.
There it is right there.
well obviously I'm talking about before that post....
I think there is a difference between "someone questioning Sing's moves" which is fine and dandy....compared to someone who is just trolling throwing out silly names and calling the starting QB who is getting beatup back there a "slacker".