How many games will the Chiefs win PYMWYMI

Originally posted by Joecool:
You mean when defenses have a lead and the only routes they allow are the shorter underneath routes? Try again. I am just basing this off of what Dilfer mentioned in that KC needs to get Bowe more touches if they truly want defenses to fear them. Your assessment of Alex is correct, so why the attacks on Bowe if his QB is simply a player who will spread it around (as long as it is a shorter route). So, is Bowe not getting the bigger plays and more opportunities because he is lazy and being double teamed (past stats show different) or is it because his QB prefers to go for the safer more sure completion which isn't a bad thing, but it is not a great thing either.

attacks on Bowe? seriously? Jeeze dude... I didn't realize he was your buddy that needed such strong defense of him. Like I have always said... Bowe is fine. He can be a very good target to look to... and at times, he can drop or piss a play away on lackadaisical efforts. Bowe can be.. all of these things. He is good... just not special, and perhaps not the best fit for an offense/QB that wants more separation. The times where the QB does throw to a tightly covered Bowe? It usually results in a drop/knockaway... not impressive.

Originally posted by Joecool:
So all the other position players are just okay talent except for one? I was mainly discussing the level of Bowes skills and how he compares to other top receivers in that category. Man, teams must have NEVER thought to double him in prior years when he averaged 16 per catch...just this year, for some reason.

He averaged 16.1...ONCE. One year. He's been in the league for seven years. He had one good deep year. That's called an anomaly. He's never come close before or since. His career average is 13.7. This puts him in company with guys like Manningham, McCardell, and Mason - guys who could go deep occasionally but mostly live on the intermediate routes. Don't make him into something he's not.

EDIT: stats for Manningham, McCardell, and Mason were from their first 7 years in the league, so match Bowe's time frame.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by Joecool:
You mean when defenses have a lead and the only routes they allow are the shorter underneath routes? Try again. I am just basing this off of what Dilfer mentioned in that KC needs to get Bowe more touches if they truly want defenses to fear them. Your assessment of Alex is correct, so why the attacks on Bowe if his QB is simply a player who will spread it around (as long as it is a shorter route). So, is Bowe not getting the bigger plays and more opportunities because he is lazy and being double teamed (past stats show different) or is it because his QB prefers to go for the safer more sure completion which isn't a bad thing, but it is not a great thing either.

attacks on Bowe? seriously? Jeeze dude... I didn't realize he was your buddy that needed such strong defense of him. Like I have always said... Bowe is fine. He can be a very good target to look to... and at times, he can drop or piss a play away on lackadaisical efforts. Bowe can be.. all of these things. He is good... just not special, and perhaps not the best fit for an offense/QB that wants more separation. The times where the QB does throw to a tightly covered Bowe? It usually results in a drop/knockaway... not impressive.

Lets not beat up Cool too much Mr. McG, lol. I mean I look at Bowe as I do the star receiver on any other team. They now have a QB who can get him the ball consistently without turning it over. So IMHO, he is one of, if not the main receiving threat, so you double him most of the time, and now the other teams mantra becomes ok, well u may beat us, but it wont be because of Bowe. I agree with Dilfer that you have to give him the ball, but Dilfer also said on NFL network, as well as Phil Simms when being interviewed, that this offense is still getting its feet wet. That when Bowe is covered, he's still open. He and Smith will develop this rapport, but it does take time, and the offense is doing some good things, and showing up when it matters most, in the 4th quarter, when it's clutch time.

The Chiefs are winning, and it's not all because of the defense. I actually called into the Chief's show after the Texans game, and said just this, in which they agreed with me. "The D is playing lights out, but that's the beauty of the Chiefs. They make you play their style of ball. And they have a QB that barring a blowout, will always be able to keep you in games. When he was with the 9ers, he has already proved that you can put the ball in his hands at crunch time, and he can lead you to victory. He's also proved this one thing, that it's not about stats, but about Wins. And over the last 2.5 yrs, thats one stat that there is no way to misread, one you cant belittle, and thats having a winning record over the past few years, both with two different teams. Help lead us to 13-3 first year of offense, then 6-2, the next year, then a new team, and 7-0 thus far. I'll say this but if you would of told me that Alex freakin Smith would of had these wins the last 3 years based on past history, i would of thought u were talking about another QB..... They replied there is one thing you cant take away from Smith and the offense is that in the 4th quarter they are clutch. When a drive needs to be sustained, or we need a first down, they make it happen.

Call it small ball, game manager, or whatever, but one thing Smith has shown since Harbs came with us, that from this point on he will be one of the reasons you win, not the main one that you lose. Every team in the league wish they had that fair balance of offense, special teams, and defense. We continue to knock the Chiefs when the league and even us, won the same way. Just like with us 9ers. We are still a run first team, and had to go back to that, to get our winning formula. Strong defense, special teams contribution, and a Qb, that can help us win.

Marshall Faulk said it best, and this should be the main quote when thinking of Smith from this point on and in the future, and what he said was this, " Listen, lets be real, Alex is never gonna blow us away with his arm, We like the stats with the big yardage and tons of points, but at the end of the day, one thing u cant ever take away, is the man wins games, and thats what the NFL is about." Couldn't of said it better myself...

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Dwayne Bowe doesn't need to be a superstar. However, one thing he IS is a legitimate deep threat, one of the top in the league. His career average prior to this year was 13.7. Take a look at Brandon Marshall who only has a 12.6 career average. If you want to talk about TD's, Calvin Johnson only had 5 last year in 15 games and actually has 3 seasons with 5 or fewer.

Bowe's yards per catch has dropped down to 11.8 this year. His long is only 34 yards which is lower than any other year. Some can say it is because of Andy Reid, but does anyone REALLY believe if a coach has a legitimate top 5 NFL deep threat, that he will not use him? It has more to do with Alex Smith. Alex has a legit history of not throwing to his WR's deeper than 10 yards on a consistent basis. He has a legit history of preferring the shorter targets.

tell us more about Alex, joecool! need more information!

So all the other position players are just okay talent except for one? I was mainly discussing the level of Bowes skills and how he compares to other top receivers in that category. Man, teams must have NEVER thought to double him in prior years when he averaged 16 per catch...just this year, for some reason.

If you watch Bowe high lights, you will notice that he is a big physical WR that other QBs forced up jump balls to Bowe and he brings them down.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by DarkKnight1680:
Bowe is good, but he's not a superstar. He has drop issues, route running issues, and he's not a burner. He's a high-end WR2 or a low end WR1, in reality. One good season of 15 TDs doesn't make a guy a star. The KC receiving corps is poor overall. Avery is a castoff, Bowe is overrated, their TEs have been decimated by injury, McCluster is a change of pace RB who is good for the occasional catch-and-run and nothing more. It's a thin group low on talent. In terms of pass-catchers, they are probably in the bottom 5 in the NFL.

Dwayne Bowe doesn't need to be a superstar. However, one thing he IS is a legitimate deep threat, one of the top in the league. His career average prior to this year was 13.7. Take a look at Brandon Marshall who only has a 12.6 career average. If you want to talk about TD's, Calvin Johnson only had 5 last year in 15 games and actually has 3 seasons with 5 or fewer.

Bowe's yards per catch has dropped down to 11.8 this year. His long is only 34 yards which is lower than any other year. Some can say it is because of Andy Reid, but does anyone REALLY believe if a coach has a legitimate top 5 NFL deep threat, that he will not use him? It has more to do with Alex Smith. Alex has a legit history of not throwing to his WR's deeper than 10 yards on a consistent basis. He has a legit history of preferring the shorter targets.

From the Coach's Film I have seen of the Chiefs, Bowe is almost never on any route over 15 yards.

So you can say it is because Reid "knows Alex can't throw it any farther" but that same route tree existed in Philly. The truth is; Reid's offense has always been a short-passing, ball control offense. Even though he had Desean for a couple of years, the base stayed the same.

Part of the reason for Bowe's higher average in the past was the fact KC rarely had a lead. They were playing catch-up all the time. Quinn and Cassell were boom-or-bust. They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion. Some of them did connect and that helped Bowe's average but too many of them wound up in with the other team.

Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

nice post JC

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

"Bowe's past stats show he is a top 10 receiver" - this is stated like a fact when it is entirely untrue. First, what you were is not what you are. His big 2010 season is a ways behind him. Second, new, talented receivers join the league every year. I'm pretty sure any casual NFL fan can name 10 better receivers without any issues - I did it earlier in the thread and I was only looking at deep threats. And even looking at his past stats, they aren't special - they're just solid. Zero 90+ catch seasons. Zero 1200+ yard seasons. One 8+ TD season.

Over the 7 years he's been in the league, taking the top 100 receivers in yds/game, he's #26 in yards receiving/game. He's #28 in receiving TDs/game. He's #20 in catches/game. I'll repeat: he's a very good #2 or a low-end #1. The stats say it. His play says it. The easily listed group of better receivers says it. It's not hard to see.

And in regards to "comparing him to Manningham" - I was simply pointing out your lies about his yards/catch. They are not elite, they are pedestrian - similar to Manningham or Derrick Mason.

Originally posted by DarkKnight1680:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

"Bowe's past stats show he is a top 10 receiver" - this is stated like a fact when it is entirely untrue. First, what you were is not what you are. His big 2010 season is a ways behind him. Second, new, talented receivers join the league every year. I'm pretty sure any casual NFL fan can name 10 better receivers without any issues - I did it earlier in the thread and I was only looking at deep threats. And even looking at his past stats, they aren't special - they're just solid. Zero 90+ catch seasons. Zero 1200+ yard seasons. One 8+ TD season.

Over the 7 years he's been in the league, taking the top 100 receivers in yds/game, he's #26 in yards receiving/game. He's #28 in receiving TDs/game. He's #20 in catches/game. I'll repeat: he's a very good #2 or a low-end #1. The stats say it. His play says it. The easily listed group of better receivers says it. It's not hard to see.

None of those stats show the most important number. Targeted. I made this case about Crabtree 3 years ago about how effective he is per number of targets. Very few other WR's compared but Bowe was one of them who also was targeted a lower than usual number of times but still put up very respectable numbers.

Let me give you an example, in a season Brandon Marshall racked 1265 yards, he was targeted 183 times. In fact, he has had 3 seasons where he was targeted more than 170.

Bowe's best season of 1162 yards, he was targeted 132 times. His highest number of targets was his second year at 158.


This dude had an awesome season and some very respectable seasons. His last full season, 2011, he was ranked 13th in yards. This while being targeted less than 6 of the receivers ahead of him.

Okay Joe... you win, if it makes you happy. Bowe is amazing, and his QB is failing him horribly!

We all happy now?

In truth though, and if you were really watching these games? You would see that Bowe has not been special.. has not been making the tough catches as much as a #1 should. He is a good WR, but plenty of times, he has given Alex reasons to not make throwing to him such an effort.

So we can really just per usual, agree to disagree and move on.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

Joe, You're making stuff up that nobody has written. That's all OK. I know your stance on Alex, so let's just move on.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Okay Joe... you win, if it makes you happy. Bowe is amazing, and his QB is failing him horribly!

We all happy now?

In truth though, and if you were really watching these games? You would see that Bowe has not been special.. has not been making the tough catches as much as a #1 should. He is a good WR, but plenty of times, he has given Alex reasons to not make throwing to him such an effort.

So we can really just per usual, agree to disagree and move on.

I didn't say he was amazing. I just don't see the reason to downgrade his ability to reason why Alex isn't throwing to him. "He has given Alex reasons..." is another off the wall comment.

Alex is praised for his safe play that helps out the defense and ball control but Bowe is condemned for Alex's same safe play? Pick a side. You can't be proud of a QB for going with shorter targets because they are safer targets and more efficient but then underappreciated a WR who isn't being targeted on the deep ball which is a low percentage plays.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Do you guys realize what you are saying about Bowe?

McG: "Bowe can be all these things, he is good, just not special." Bowe's past stats have shown he is a top 10 NFL WR. He has ALREADY shown he is a legit target.

Dark Night: Mario Manningham? Really, you are comparing Bowe to a guy who has never surpassed 1000 yards and never caught more than 60 balls? I am talking about a receiver who is THE primary focus of a secondary. Mario was never this. He benefitted from Toomer or Nicks.

dj: "They threw it up in the desperate hope of a completion." So, the opponent is in prevent and Bowe is going up against 2 defenders at the minimum and he has still put up top 10 numbers yet Alex isn't throwing to him because he isn't as good as advertised?


You guys have brought up things that actually MAKE Bowe a legit deep target. Let's see, he is accustomed to making catches deep vs double teams per dj. McGibblets said Alex spreads the ball and will throw the higher percentage which directly relates to Bowe not having top numbers yet it is actually because he's not good? And he can be a top receiver but doesn't realize Bowe has already proven he IS a top receiver. Another is a comparison to a complimentary receiver who's stats don't even compare?


Look fellas, it is a good thing for KC that Alex is a QB who prefers the shorter routes. That is a GOOD thing. But it doesn't mean Bowe is lazy or not a top level receiver. Why? Because he has proven he is. Why is it that all other positions are not good enough for why their numbers are not top tier type of numbers? Could it possibly have anything to do with the style of the QB?

nice post JC

Oh, look Joe. You found a friend.

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Okay Joe... you win, if it makes you happy. Bowe is amazing, and his QB is failing him horribly!

We all happy now?

In truth though, and if you were really watching these games? You would see that Bowe has not been special.. has not been making the tough catches as much as a #1 should. He is a good WR, but plenty of times, he has given Alex reasons to not make throwing to him such an effort.

So we can really just per usual, agree to disagree and move on.

Twice in Sunday's game, Bowe did not run through the slant route to make the catch. He is big and strong enough that very few DBs could defend that route, if he ran it with conviction. He CAN run that route and very few can stop him, but he didn't on those two occasions. I don't believe that will prevent Alex from targeting him on the same route in the future but it does show that Bowe is human.