Mac Jones-QB-Patriots

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by 91til:
Jimmy in this offense got us to the super bowl last year. If we're basically in agreement Mac can be that, or better.... why is that not worth the 12th overall pick?

Because people are obsessed with the "elite physical traits"

Correct, but look around the league, these guys are freaks. Don't you want a Mahomes, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert?

To be elite you need everything, so why take someone high who can never have it all?

No doubt I'd take Mahomes, Allen, or Herbert, but at the same time, I'm also not supremely focused on a QB that needs to have all the traits. All in all, I've always valued IQ, accuracy, and good arm strength over the ability to sling it 70 yards plus on a rope or being able to outrun a defender.

Like I've stated a few times on this thread, one game I absolutely loved of Jones was last year vs Michigan, where he was still not as comfortable with the starters. He was under pressure quite a bit but he showed poise and great ability to move around the pocket. During the National Championship game, he did it in the redzone when he scrambled around the pocket and looked from right all the way to the left to find Bolden at the pylon.

For our team specifically, it's a natural fit.

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by 91til:

Jimmy in this offense got us to the super bowl last year. If we're basically in agreement Mac can be that, or better.... why is that not worth the 12th overall pick?

Because people are obsessed with the "elite physical traits"

Correct, but look around the league, these guys are freaks. Don't you want a Mahomes, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert?

To be elite you need everything, so why take someone high who can never have it all?

No doubt I'd take Mahomes, Allen, or Herbert, but at the same time, I'm also not supremely focused on a QB that needs to have all the traits. All in all, I've always valued IQ, accuracy, and good arm strength over the ability to sling it 70 yards plus on a rope or being able to outrun a defender.

Like I've stated a few times on this thread, one game I absolutely loved of Jones was last year vs Michigan, where he was still not as comfortable with the starters. He was under pressure quite a bit but he showed poise and great ability to move around the pocket. During the National Championship game, he did it in the redzone when he scrambled around the pocket and looked from right all the way to the left to find Bolden at the pylon.

For our team specifically, it's a natural fit.

That's a really nice post, and Kyle Shanahan has proven he can get a lot out of that skillset.

Thing is that I can see a lot of these traits you look for (they're most important to me as well) in guys who are also blessed with immense physical gifts. Just too hard for me to ignore.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by KILLAXWHALE:
A good thing i can say is Bama has never won in spite of him. OSU dated them to throw and he touched them, always finding the open guy, stepping up in the pocket, and making all throws look pretty. You never scratched your head watching him play

He was also never really pressured outside of his fumble and Smith was on his way to having like 400 yards because no one could guard him. Wade was getting down right abused...SF better not touch that kid in the 1st 3 rds. OSU couldn't tackle either, they could have just handed the ball off all game and won (4.6 YPC). Bama is jus on another level.

I don't doubt Jones is a super heady QB that knows where to go with the ball, that's half the battle in being a good QB...you put him on a different team with different coaching/talent, is he gonna be talked about like this? It's a reasonable debate.

Is it though? How can you possibly know what he would do on another team?

I understand it's harder to evaluate a guy on how he could fare with lesser talent around him so there is hesitation there but you can't really knock a guy for it either.

Burrow went #1 overall and his #2 WR broke Randy Moss' and Anquan Boldin rookie yardage record for crying out loud. Only Bill Groman had more(honestly had to look that up....that dude was impressive before injuries screwed him up)

I know we've seen guys who put up big numbers in college at big time schools gets into the NFL and look like career backups at best. However the reason I brought up Brady before wasn't to say Jones will be just like Brady. Brady is basically the best example of a guy who looked unathletic as hell putting together arguably the greatest career in the NFL(imo it is).

Some people say the NFL is different now but old man Brady is in the divisional round on a new team. Pocket passers will never die out. It's just becoming harder to find ones good enough to have those long careers because the college ranks aren't producing as many of them.

And while Jones is surrounded by talent and great OL so you can certainly have questions about what happens if our OL struggles in pass pro again and he's getting hit left and right...how will he respond? We've seen greater prospects than Jones get shell shocked in the NFL. I get the hesitancy and uncertainty.

BUT just like people say evaluate the player and not the school with small school guys why doesn't that apply to Jones? He doesn't see pressure often but it happens and he rarely performs poorly. The fumble Monday was his first career fumble and iirc the pressure was on him after he turned around off a PA, he made a move to try to move the ball and it got popped up. Learning experience for him hopefully.

He still has to make the throws, the reads, move in the pocket..etc. Yes some of these things are easier with the talent around him but you literally have people ripping Jimmy apart with film cutups with him missing throws, not making accurate throws or missing reads....despite decent talent around him.

I would LOVE to have a QB who is scheme/talent proof. Someone who would be All Pro stud with Kyle and the talent we have but also play well should anything ever happen with Kyle or injuries/talent fall out.

But those guys are simply not easy to find. Kudos to the teams who did. I hope we find our guy but if we're looking to shed Jimmy's salary and still keep the offense and team playing well, IMO you can do a lot worse than Jones.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by KILLAXWHALE:
A good thing i can say is Bama has never won in spite of him. OSU dated them to throw and he touched them, always finding the open guy, stepping up in the pocket, and making all throws look pretty. You never scratched your head watching him play

He was also never really pressured outside of his fumble and Smith was on his way to having like 400 yards because no one could guard him. Wade was getting down right abused...SF better not touch that kid in the 1st 3 rds. OSU couldn't tackle either, they could have just handed the ball off all game and won (4.6 YPC). Bama is jus on another level.

I don't doubt Jones is a super heady QB that knows where to go with the ball, that's half the battle in being a good QB...you put him on a different team with different coaching/talent, is he gonna be talked about like this? It's a reasonable debate.

Is it though? How can you possibly know what he would do on another team?

I understand it's harder to evaluate a guy on how he could fare with lesser talent around him so there is hesitation there but you can't really knock a guy for it either.

Burrow went #1 overall and his #2 WR broke Randy Moss' and Anquan Boldin rookie yardage record for crying out loud. Only Bill Groman had more(honestly had to look that up....that dude was impressive before injuries screwed him up)

I know we've seen guys who put up big numbers in college at big time schools gets into the NFL and look like career backups at best. However the reason I brought up Brady before wasn't to say Jones will be just like Brady. Brady is basically the best example of a guy who looked unathletic as hell putting together arguably the greatest career in the NFL(imo it is).

Some people say the NFL is different now but old man Brady is in the divisional round on a new team. Pocket passers will never die out. It's just becoming harder to find ones good enough to have those long careers because the college ranks aren't producing as many of them.

And while Jones is surrounded by talent and great OL so you can certainly have questions about what happens if our OL struggles in pass pro again and he's getting hit left and right...how will he respond? We've seen greater prospects than Jones get shell shocked in the NFL. I get the hesitancy and uncertainty.

BUT just like people say evaluate the player and not the school with small school guys why doesn't that apply to Jones? He doesn't see pressure often but it happens and he rarely performs poorly. The fumble Monday was his first career fumble and iirc the pressure was on him after he turned around off a PA, he made a move to try to move the ball and it got popped up. Learning experience for him hopefully.

He still has to make the throws, the reads, move in the pocket..etc. Yes some of these things are easier with the talent around him but you literally have people ripping Jimmy apart with film cutups with him missing throws, not making accurate throws or missing reads....despite decent talent around him.

I would LOVE to have a QB who is scheme/talent proof. Someone who would be All Pro stud with Kyle and the talent we have but also play well should anything ever happen with Kyle or injuries/talent fall out.

But those guys are simply not easy to find. Kudos to the teams who did. I hope we find our guy but if we're looking to shed Jimmy's salary and still keep the offense and team playing well, IMO you can do a lot worse than Jones.

It's simple. If Kyle is winning a lot of games and even going to the SuperBowl with an average QB like Jimmy G, imagine how he could do with a better QB. Mac Jones would not be Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes, but he'd be an upgrade from Jimmy.

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by KILLAXWHALE:

A good thing i can say is Bama has never won in spite of him. OSU dated them to throw and he touched them, always finding the open guy, stepping up in the pocket, and making all throws look pretty. You never scratched your head watching him play

He was also never really pressured outside of his fumble and Smith was on his way to having like 400 yards because no one could guard him. Wade was getting down right abused...SF better not touch that kid in the 1st 3 rds. OSU couldn't tackle either, they could have just handed the ball off all game and won (4.6 YPC). Bama is jus on another level.

I don't doubt Jones is a super heady QB that knows where to go with the ball, that's half the battle in being a good QB...you put him on a different team with different coaching/talent, is he gonna be talked about like this? It's a reasonable debate.

Is it though? How can you possibly know what he would do on another team?

I understand it's harder to evaluate a guy on how he could fare with lesser talent around him so there is hesitation there but you can't really knock a guy for it either.

Burrow went #1 overall and his #2 WR broke Randy Moss' and Anquan Boldin rookie yardage record for crying out loud. Only Bill Groman had more(honestly had to look that up....that dude was impressive before injuries screwed him up)

I know we've seen guys who put up big numbers in college at big time schools gets into the NFL and look like career backups at best. However the reason I brought up Brady before wasn't to say Jones will be just like Brady. Brady is basically the best example of a guy who looked unathletic as hell putting together arguably the greatest career in the NFL(imo it is).

Some people say the NFL is different now but old man Brady is in the divisional round on a new team. Pocket passers will never die out. It's just becoming harder to find ones good enough to have those long careers because the college ranks aren't producing as many of them.

And while Jones is surrounded by talent and great OL so you can certainly have questions about what happens if our OL struggles in pass pro again and he's getting hit left and right...how will he respond? We've seen greater prospects than Jones get shell shocked in the NFL. I get the hesitancy and uncertainty.

BUT just like people say evaluate the player and not the school with small school guys why doesn't that apply to Jones? He doesn't see pressure often but it happens and he rarely performs poorly. The fumble Monday was his first career fumble and iirc the pressure was on him after he turned around off a PA, he made a move to try to move the ball and it got popped up. Learning experience for him hopefully.

He still has to make the throws, the reads, move in the pocket..etc. Yes some of these things are easier with the talent around him but you literally have people ripping Jimmy apart with film cutups with him missing throws, not making accurate throws or missing reads....despite decent talent around him.

I would LOVE to have a QB who is scheme/talent proof. Someone who would be All Pro stud with Kyle and the talent we have but also play well should anything ever happen with Kyle or injuries/talent fall out.

But those guys are simply not easy to find. Kudos to the teams who did. I hope we find our guy but if we're looking to shed Jimmy's salary and still keep the offense and team playing well, IMO you can do a lot worse than Jones.

It's simple. If Kyle is winning a lot of games and even going to the SuperBowl with an average QB like Jimmy G, imagine how he could do with a better QB. Mac Jones would not be Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes, but he'd be an upgrade from Jimmy.

I agree with all of this, but why not aim higher?

Jones would be an upgrade in a year or so over Jimmy. He has a more accurate deep ball and seems to have very good ball placement in the short passing game for our WRs to get a ton of YAC. I'm all for it if he's sitting there at 12.

Originally posted by krizay:

Smith went out and Waddle was a non factor and they scored on all 3 possessions (17 points) that they weren't running the clock out on.

Exactly, if anything he likes even better without Smith. Distributed the ball everywhere. The Bama is soo good excuse is played out. Lawrence and Field had just as much talent around them and nobody hates an eye. Give the guy his credit. In terms of prospects he works the pocket the best, throws with the most anticipation, seems to do the best pre-snap diagnosis, and has the best deep ball in class

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by richterkbelmont:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by KILLAXWHALE:
A good thing i can say is Bama has never won in spite of him. OSU dated them to throw and he touched them, always finding the open guy, stepping up in the pocket, and making all throws look pretty. You never scratched your head watching him play

He was also never really pressured outside of his fumble and Smith was on his way to having like 400 yards because no one could guard him. Wade was getting down right abused...SF better not touch that kid in the 1st 3 rds. OSU couldn't tackle either, they could have just handed the ball off all game and won (4.6 YPC). Bama is jus on another level.

I don't doubt Jones is a super heady QB that knows where to go with the ball, that's half the battle in being a good QB...you put him on a different team with different coaching/talent, is he gonna be talked about like this? It's a reasonable debate.

Is it though? How can you possibly know what he would do on another team?

I understand it's harder to evaluate a guy on how he could fare with lesser talent around him so there is hesitation there but you can't really knock a guy for it either.

Burrow went #1 overall and his #2 WR broke Randy Moss' and Anquan Boldin rookie yardage record for crying out loud. Only Bill Groman had more(honestly had to look that up....that dude was impressive before injuries screwed him up)

I know we've seen guys who put up big numbers in college at big time schools gets into the NFL and look like career backups at best. However the reason I brought up Brady before wasn't to say Jones will be just like Brady. Brady is basically the best example of a guy who looked unathletic as hell putting together arguably the greatest career in the NFL(imo it is).

Some people say the NFL is different now but old man Brady is in the divisional round on a new team. Pocket passers will never die out. It's just becoming harder to find ones good enough to have those long careers because the college ranks aren't producing as many of them.

And while Jones is surrounded by talent and great OL so you can certainly have questions about what happens if our OL struggles in pass pro again and he's getting hit left and right...how will he respond? We've seen greater prospects than Jones get shell shocked in the NFL. I get the hesitancy and uncertainty.

BUT just like people say evaluate the player and not the school with small school guys why doesn't that apply to Jones? He doesn't see pressure often but it happens and he rarely performs poorly. The fumble Monday was his first career fumble and iirc the pressure was on him after he turned around off a PA, he made a move to try to move the ball and it got popped up. Learning experience for him hopefully.

He still has to make the throws, the reads, move in the pocket..etc. Yes some of these things are easier with the talent around him but you literally have people ripping Jimmy apart with film cutups with him missing throws, not making accurate throws or missing reads....despite decent talent around him.

I would LOVE to have a QB who is scheme/talent proof. Someone who would be All Pro stud with Kyle and the talent we have but also play well should anything ever happen with Kyle or injuries/talent fall out.

But those guys are simply not easy to find. Kudos to the teams who did. I hope we find our guy but if we're looking to shed Jimmy's salary and still keep the offense and team playing well, IMO you can do a lot worse than Jones.

It's simple. If Kyle is winning a lot of games and even going to the SuperBowl with an average QB like Jimmy G, imagine how he could do with a better QB. Mac Jones would not be Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes, but he'd be an upgrade from Jimmy.

I agree with all of this, but why not aim higher?

The only higuer you can aim for the time being is trading the farm for Deshaun Watson or a lesser trade for Stafford. That's about it. If you bring a rookie QB you can use the money to pay Trent Williams and perhaps lure more OL talent. Give the rookie an stud OL so he doesn't end like Joe Burrow. And improve the WR depth so you can survive injuries to Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle.

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

No doubt I'd take Mahomes, Allen, or Herbert, but at the same time, I'm also not supremely focused on a QB that needs to have all the traits. All in all, I've always valued IQ, accuracy, and good arm strength over the ability to sling it 70 yards plus on a rope or being able to outrun a defender.

Like I've stated a few times on this thread, one game I absolutely loved of Jones was last year vs Michigan, where he was still not as comfortable with the starters. He was under pressure quite a bit but he showed poise and great ability to move around the pocket. During the National Championship game, he did it in the redzone when he scrambled around the pocket and looked from right all the way to the left to find Bolden at the pylon.

For our team specifically, it's a natural fit.

And SF is gonna have to completely rebuild the OL to be top end pass-protectors. I mean he's got heavy slow feet end of the day. I love the IQ just as much as anyone, gotta need more than that in the NFL.

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:

Originally posted by AsianJeff:

Originally posted by 91til:

Jimmy in this offense got us to the super bowl last year. If we're basically in agreement Mac can be that, or better.... why is that not worth the 12th overall pick?

Because people are obsessed with the "elite physical traits"

Correct, but look around the league, these guys are freaks. Don't you want a Mahomes, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert?

To be elite you need everything, so why take someone high who can never have it all?

Tom Brady is not an athletic freak. If you think he can be Tom or Peyton, you still pick the guy.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Tom Brady is not an athletic freak. If you think he can be Tom or Peyton, you still pick the guy.

Or Drew

Originally posted by genus49:

Is it though? How can you possibly know what he would do on another team?

IMO you can do a lot worse than Jones.

What do you mean? You think if he didn't have the best OL in the country, multiple 1st rd WRs (one who won the Heisman), an absolute unit at the run running back position and coaching that's overall on another level...he'd be doing what he's doing? You don't think Zach Wilson in Bama would play better with all that around him? Really any QB for that matter?

It absolutely is a discussion worth talking about...that's why skill set matters in the evaluation of a player, more than stats. You can teach a player coverages, reads, progressions, protection calls etc...God given ability isn't something you can teach.

As for your last statement, I don't think Jones blows, I do think there's a ceiling there and it's already at its max...when you say we could do worse then him, that's not what I'm looking for at 12th overall and wanting to make him my FQB for the next decade seem like that's been the M.O for QBs in SF for the past 2 decades.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Tom Brady is not an athletic freak. If you think he can be Tom or Peyton, you still pick the guy.

if people think that's who he's gonna be he should be going #1 overall. Period.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by AsianJeff:
No doubt I'd take Mahomes, Allen, or Herbert, but at the same time, I'm also not supremely focused on a QB that needs to have all the traits. All in all, I've always valued IQ, accuracy, and good arm strength over the ability to sling it 70 yards plus on a rope or being able to outrun a defender.

Like I've stated a few times on this thread, one game I absolutely loved of Jones was last year vs Michigan, where he was still not as comfortable with the starters. He was under pressure quite a bit but he showed poise and great ability to move around the pocket. During the National Championship game, he did it in the redzone when he scrambled around the pocket and looked from right all the way to the left to find Bolden at the pylon.

For our team specifically, it's a natural fit.

And SF is gonna have to completely rebuild the OL to be top end pass-protectors. I mean he's got heavy slow feet end of the day. I love the IQ just as much as anyone, gotta need more than that in the NFL.

I agree on upgrading the OL but no need to rebuild, honestly. We need to find a way to resign Trent. Laken has played well. Use a 2nd round pick on someone like Creed Humphreys, and hopefully McG turns things around in the passing game. The OL wasn't as good pass protecting, but were top notch running the ball and gave our guys time when running the playaction. I disagree with Mac having "heavy slow feet". He's shown a real knack at moving around the pocket because of his awareness. He also has shown he can run a bit faster than Eli Manning. I'll take that.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
What do you mean? You think if he didn't have the best OL in the country, multiple 1st rd WRs (one who won the Heisman), an absolute unit at the run running back position and coaching that's overall on another level...he'd be doing what he's doing? You don't think Zach Wilson in Bama would play better with all that around him? Really any QB for that matter?

It absolutely is a discussion worth talking about...that's why skill set matters in the evaluation of a player, more than stats. You can teach a player coverages, reads, progressions, protection calls etc...God given ability isn't something you can teach.

As for your last statement, I don't think Jones blows, I do think there's a ceiling there and it's already at its max...when you say we could do worse then him, that's not what I'm looking for at 12th overall and wanting to make him my FQB for the next decade seem like that's been the M.O for QBs in SF for the past 2 decades.

I agree that Jones may be at his max other than learning the defenses in the NFL and a few little nuances. He's a very bright guy but I think his abilities are comparable to Jimmy. He's not a next level QB and not who I would take if I had the choice. Having said that, if we sign Williams and can't afford Jimmy, he might be the best alternative until they can find someone better. Maybe he can at least stay healthy but you can't tell about that. I don't know if we have enough draft capital to outbid some of the other teams that might want to move up.