Mac Jones-QB-Patriots

Originally posted by frenchmov:
Lol absolutely ridiculous. "QBs can't be taught progressions, how to read defenses quicker' f**king lol

I Did not say you can't teach just that it is not a given and as easy as people seem to think. There have been a ton of Qbs who have had all the physical traits in the world that failed in the NFL because they couldn't get where they needed to be from a mental standpoint. The thing I was talking about specifically is Processing info fast and the various things it affects in football. Processing info fast is not something you necessarily get better at with experience or being coached. Why do you think so many drivers are so young right now over guys who are so much older with more knowledge and experience. It is Because they can process info faster. There is an inherent aspect to it, not just something that can always be taught.

Originally posted by frenchmov:
Theres no guarantee ANY of that keeps up in the nfl. Teams get footage on you, you aren't playing college defenses. If you don't have an upper/elite arm then you aren't going to be elite. That's the bottom line. Can Jones be a good QB? Absolutely. You don't take "good enough arm, good enough athlete" at #3

I disagree that you need an elite arm to be an elite QB. Plenty of Qbs who had Hall of fame careers without having elite arm talent. You need to have a certain level of arm talent and I believe Mac does have enough arm talent. I think Mac is worthy to be #3 because he does have elite traits. They might not be arm talent and speed. But they are elite traits that are very important for the QB position. Like Processing info fast, Pocket awareness, Pocket manipulation, Footwork, reading a defense, getting the ball out of your hands quickly, Decision making, ball security, Accuracy on short, medium, and long passes. Mac being so far along at this point in his career in these aspects of the game makes him worthy of the #3 pick.

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
It's making less and less sense to me that Mac is the guy.

Beck is well connected with Fields and Lance, not Mac. Based on Graziano's report an hour ago, we're relying heavily on Beck.

Scangerello went to Fields' Pro Day and will go to Lance's Pro Day. He apparently didn't go to Mac's second Pro Day (not sure if he went to the first?)

Kyle essentially ran Fields' second Pro Day and will essentially run Lance's tomorrow. He didn't do this with Mac as far as I'm concerned.

Saban says we didn't even talk to him about Mac. We clearly talked to Day about Fields.

It's just not adding up to me that it's Mac. If we're trying to smokescreen... okay I guess? There's a negative percentage chance the Jags take Mac and zero chance the Jets take Mac, and they sure as heck wouldn't decide based on how interested we seem to be.

I keep flip-flopping everyday (who isn't?) but at this moment, it doesn't make sense to me that it could be Mac. We'll see I guess, but if it were him we really don't seem to be doing as much homework on him.

I agree. Are you really going to spend 3 first round picks on someone you've only been able to interact with over a few hour long zoom calls? Are you really going to tie your career to that? I don't buy it. It feels like Kyle is using Beck as a proxy of the 49ers to help get an understanding of these guys since he can't spend a ton of time with them due to the COVID restrictions. Mac has enough character questions that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking him unless I was able to spend significant time with people that knew him well and that I felt would tell me the truth.

Originally posted by JTB1974:

Originally posted by krizay:
Yea it's not even close. Anyone that says differently is fooling themselves.

But will he still be the best at that in 2 years? I thought this was about getting the best QB for the next decade. The weaknesses Jones has in his game he is not going to get better at because he just doesn't have the Athletic ability. The Weaknesses Fields has in his game he could learn with experience and coaching. The Elite traits Fields possesses, you can't teach.

This is the million dollar question...i see a pretty constant stream of reasoning tying Jones to SF is that he is "pro-ready" but not so much that he's actually the better player when you look at the ceilings. I'd guess no to answer your questions and I think Fields and Lance have the prime opportunity to be coached up in these areas...Mac can get in better shape but he's never gonna be an elite athlete. Fields/Lance have the time to make a leap in these traits Mac is supposedly better at, Mac does not.

I, for one, don't think he's enough better at "processing" and accuracy etc than Fields to justify being picked over him.

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by JTB1974:

Originally posted by krizay:
Yea it's not even close. Anyone that says differently is fooling themselves.

But will he still be the best at that in 2 years? I thought this was about getting the best QB for the next decade. The weaknesses Jones has in his game he is not going to get better at because he just doesn't have the Athletic ability. The Weaknesses Fields has in his game he could learn with experience and coaching. The Elite traits Fields possesses, you can't teach.

I just think that's wrong. The quick mind Jones has demonstrated can't be taught, and not one percent of quarterbacks can learn. What Jones doesn't have physically, compared to Fields and Lance, ok. Compared to the Super Bowl winners this century, as I've shown line by line, he's more athletic than 76 percent of them. This whole narrative of him being physically inadequate is just not reality.

It all comes down to weather you think the greats at the position were great because they were Mr. Atlas, or they had very quick minds. I'll take on that debate any day. It's primarily a mental position.

The bottom line is that Jones doesn't need much more than what he has, and Fields and Lance do. If Erickson or NoWin or SingleCell or Tomsula or Harbaugh or Kelly was our coach, I'd be with you. We'd need someone to bail them out. With Shanahan, Fields and Lance are exceedingly low percentage bets to be able to maximize Kyle's Genius. I say let's ride this Shanahan horse until the wheels fall off, give him what he needs, and not take the ball out of his hands with an "athletic" quarterback.

Forgive me if this is a post I've missed in this massive thread...but how many of those 76% are Brady? And more athletic by which measure?

Originally posted by jobiwon:
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/greg-cosell-discusses-49ers-2021-nfl-draft-qb-options-no-3-pick

Cosell says most coaches don't want their QB to go off schedule. I see Fields going somewhere like Denver with a defense coach where you need him to be the offense and win MVP. With Mac, Shanny is the star and if the offense is executed precisely each play, then you're talking SB.
Shanny would love to have a QB that could run also. I think he'd design a few specific plays to run at times to pressure the D. He's said an offense like he had for RG III is not what he wants to run though.
I still believe he'd place a premium on a QB with high level pocket skills over one that can run. He's just want them to be athletic enough to execute some boots which Mac showed at the pro day. The pick is still likely Mac.

If Jones had a strong arm I wouldn't have much of an issue that he is not a great runner. My concern with Jimmy G(other than his durability) is safeties were able to cheat because they had no fear of the deep ball. It will be the same with Jones. I was looking forward to being able to use Aiyuk to his full potential, Having him be able to stretch the field. But so much for that if Kyle drafts Jones. Stafford is not the most mobile but he has a cannon for an arm.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
I agree. Are you really going to spend 3 first round picks on someone you've only been able to interact with over a few hour long zoom calls? Are you really going to tie your career to that? I don't buy it. It feels like Kyle is using Beck as a proxy of the 49ers to help get an understanding of these guys since he can't spend a ton of time with them due to the COVID restrictions. Mac has enough character questions that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking him unless I was able to spend significant time with people that knew him well and that I felt would tell me the truth.

You don't think he that he couldn't just talk to Steve Sarkisian? Sarkisian was on the Falcons staff with Raheem Morris and a few other guys that Shanahan has close connections to and now he's out of Bama's orbit altogether so there's no reason for him to not be straight up about Jones, especially since he's raved about how he opened the playbook up more for Mac than any other QB he's coached in college. He also was running numerous concepts straight out of Kyle's playbook. Hell he called using Kyle's playbook in Atlanta. If you really want to know about Mac Jones, I think what Sark can say regarding a few years worth of interactions with him is going to have considerable value if Shanahan is seeking that input.

Originally posted by 1swift:
This is the million dollar question...i see a pretty constant stream of reasoning tying Jones to SF is that he is "pro-ready" but not so much that he's actually the better player when you look at the ceilings. I'd guess no to answer your questions and I think Fields and Lance have the prime opportunity to be coached up in these areas...Mac can get in better shape but he's never gonna be an elite athlete. Fields/Lance have the time to make a leap in these traits Mac is supposedly better at, Mac does not.

I, for one, don't think he's enough better at "processing" and accuracy etc than Fields to justify being picked over him.

And the thing is from what we hear is if they draft Jones they don't even plan on starting him in year 1 which takes away the only plus there is in drafting him over Fields and Lance. The only reason you would even consider drafting Jones over Fields and Lance is he is suppose to be pro-ready now. So why are they keeping Jimmy G?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
I agree. Are you really going to spend 3 first round picks on someone you've only been able to interact with over a few hour long zoom calls? Are you really going to tie your career to that? I don't buy it. It feels like Kyle is using Beck as a proxy of the 49ers to help get an understanding of these guys since he can't spend a ton of time with them due to the COVID restrictions. Mac has enough character questions that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking him unless I was able to spend significant time with people that knew him well and that I felt would tell me the truth.

You don't think he that he couldn't just talk to Steve Sarkisian? Sarkisian was on the Falcons staff with Raheem Morris and a few other guys that Shanahan has close connections to and now he's out of Bama's orbit altogether so there's no reason for him to not be straight up about Jones, especially since he's raved about how he opened the playbook up more for Mac than any other QB he's coached in college. He also was running numerous concepts straight out of Kyle's playbook. Hell he called using Kyle's playbook in Atlanta. If you really want to know about Mac Jones, I think what Sark can say regarding a few years worth of interactions with him is going to have considerable value if Shanahan is seeking that input.

No, I don't. There's no established relationship between the two. It's not the same and it won't carry the same weight. Do you think Shanahan is willing to bet his career on the word of Steve Sarkisian, the guy who tried to run his offense in Atlanta and failed?

Originally posted by Bloodless:

Originally posted by frenchmov:
Lol absolutely ridiculous. "QBs can't be taught progressions, how to read defenses quicker' f**king lol

I Did not say you can't teach just that it is not a given and as easy as people seem to think. There have been a ton of Qbs who have had all the physical traits in the world that failed in the NFL because they couldn't get where they needed to be from a mental standpoint. The thing I was talking about specifically is Processing info fast and the various things it affects in football. Processing info fast is not something you necessarily get better at with experience or being coached. Why do you think so many drivers are so young right now over guys who are so much older with more knowledge and experience. It is Because they can process info faster. There is an inherent aspect to it, not just something that can always be taught.

Originally posted by frenchmov:
Theres no guarantee ANY of that keeps up in the nfl. Teams get footage on you, you aren't playing college defenses. If you don't have an upper/elite arm then you aren't going to be elite. That's the bottom line. Can Jones be a good QB? Absolutely. You don't take "good enough arm, good enough athlete" at #3

I disagree that you need an elite arm to be an elite QB. Plenty of Qbs who had Hall of fame careers without having elite arm talent. You need to have a certain level of arm talent and I believe Mac does have enough arm talent. I think Mac is worthy to be #3 because he does have elite traits. They might not be arm talent and speed. But they are elite traits that are very important for the QB position. Like Processing info fast, Pocket awareness, Pocket manipulation, Footwork, reading a defense, getting the ball out of your hands quickly, Decision making, ball security, Accuracy on short, medium, and long passes. Mac being so far along at this point in his career in these aspects of the game makes him worthy of the #3 pick.

These traits you have given only to Mac as elite I've seen several analysts also show Fields doing as well...in addition to being a plus athlete with a plus arm. The mental side of the game is the hardest to see on film because we don't know the true progressions, we dont know the coaching telling them to do something different than what we may think would be ideal in the given situation but there's been nothing concrete that says Fields isn't also mentally capable in addition to having physical attributes that Mac just doesn't have.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
No, I don't. There's no established relationship between the two. It's not the same and it won't carry the same weight. Do you think Shanahan is willing to bet his career on the word of Steve Sarkisian, the guy who tried to run his offense in Atlanta and failed?

Their offense was doing well with Sarkisian, where is the support for this notion that he failed rather than the Falcons were just being ineptly run?

Think about this for a second: In Shanahan's last year, the Atlanta Falcons were No. 4 in the NFL in Football Outsider's DVOA offensive efficiency ratings.

In the two years under Sarkisian (with unfortunate injuries, especially on the offensive line by the way): They were No. 9 (2017) and No. 8 (2018).

Do you know where the Falcons have ranked in the past two seasons? No. 15 in 2019 and No. 21 in 2020.

There may have been a drop from Shanahan to Sarkisian, but there has been an even bigger drop from Sarkisian to Dirk Koetter.

Originally posted by Fanaticofnfl:
It's making less and less sense to me that Mac is the guy.

Beck is well connected with Fields and Lance, not Mac. Based on Graziano's report an hour ago, we're relying heavily on Beck.

Scangerello went to Fields' Pro Day and will go to Lance's Pro Day. He apparently didn't go to Mac's second Pro Day (not sure if he went to the first?)

Kyle essentially ran Fields' second Pro Day and will essentially run Lance's tomorrow. He didn't do this with Mac as far as I'm concerned.

Saban says we didn't even talk to him about Mac. We clearly talked to Day about Fields.

It's just not adding up to me that it's Mac. If we're trying to smokescreen... okay I guess? There's a negative percentage chance the Jags take Mac and zero chance the Jets take Mac, and they sure as heck wouldn't decide based on how interested we seem to be.

I keep flip-flopping everyday (who isn't?) but at this moment, it doesn't make sense to me that it could be Mac. We'll see I guess, but if it were him we really don't seem to be doing as much homework on him.

Could be because Jones has been the guy all along

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
No, I don't. There's no established relationship between the two. It's not the same and it won't carry the same weight. Do you think Shanahan is willing to bet his career on the word of Steve Sarkisian, the guy who tried to run his offense in Atlanta and failed?

Their offense was doing well with Sarkisian, where is the support for this notion that he failed rather than the Falcons were just being ineptly run?

Think about this for a second: In Shanahan's last year, the Atlanta Falcons were No. 4 in the NFL in Football Outsider's DVOA offensive efficiency ratings.

In the two years under Sarkisian (with unfortunate injuries, especially on the offensive line by the way): They were No. 9 (2017) and No. 8 (2018).

Do you know where the Falcons have ranked in the past two seasons? No. 15 in 2019 and No. 21 in 2020.

There may have been a drop from Shanahan to Sarkisian, but there has been an even bigger drop from Sarkisian to Dirk Koetter.

Wanna see #NFL coaching craziness encapsulated?

-2016 Kyle Shanahan led Matt Ryan to 69%/38TD/7INT & Julio to 83/1400/6TD-Got a 6 year HC job (deserved)

-2018 Steve Sarkisian led Matt Ryan to 69%/35TD/7INT & Julio to 113/1600/8TD and got...fired?!?!🤷🏼‍♂️ #Falcons

— Dan Orlovsky (@danorlovsky7) January 3, 2019

So he got fired by the people that interacted with him on a daily basis despite only a moderate drop off from the offensive performance when Shanahan was there?

Regardless, there's no known established relationship there. He's an acquaintance at best, which is probably true for most people in the league.

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
So he got fired by the people that interacted with him on a daily basis despite only a moderate drop off from the offensive performance when Shanahan was there?

Its always easy to find a scapegoat when you really need one. 2018 Falcons were 10th in points scored in the NFL, 25th in points given up, finished 7-9. 2019 Falcons without Sarkisian were 13th in points scored in the NFL, 23rd in points given up, they finished 7-9.

I don't think he was the problem.

Regardless, there's no known established relationship there. He's an acquaintance at best, which is probably true for most people in the league.

People that Kyle is tight with are in a position to vouch for him and he's in a position to break down stuff to the very nitty gritty level of the offense since he has extensive experience in it. If the 49ers did draft Mac Jones, I can't see how you go about doing that without speaking to Sark and getting his detailed input on Jones.

Originally posted by Bloodless:
I Did not say you can't teach just that it is not a given and as easy as people seem to think. There have been a ton of Qbs who have had all the physical traits in the world that failed in the NFL because they couldn't get where they needed to be from a mental standpoint. The thing I was talking about specifically is Processing info fast and the various things it affects in football. Processing info fast is not something you necessarily get better at with experience or being coached. Why do you think so many drivers are so young right now over guys who are so much older with more knowledge and experience. It is Because they can process info faster. There is an inherent aspect to it, not just something that can always be taught.

I disagree that you need an elite arm to be an elite QB. Plenty of Qbs who had Hall of fame careers without having elite arm talent. You need to have a certain level of arm talent and I believe Mac does have enough arm talent. I think Mac is worthy to be #3 because he does have elite traits. They might not be arm talent and speed. But they are elite traits that are very important for the QB position. Like Processing info fast, Pocket awareness, Pocket manipulation, Footwork, reading a defense, getting the ball out of your hands quickly, Decision making, ball security, Accuracy on short, medium, and long passes. Mac being so far along at this point in his career in these aspects of the game makes him worthy of the #3 pick.

But you are also presenting Mac being elite in this category & the 2 others not.... Which isn't true? So let me humor and say Mac Jones is an elite processor or whatever, 9/10. Justin fields is an 8/10, below Mac. But then arm fields is a 10/10 to Macs 7/10, athleticism fields 9/10 to Macs 5/10.... You begin to see why the choice is clear

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 49ersRing:
So he got fired by the people that interacted with him on a daily basis despite only a moderate drop off from the offensive performance when Shanahan was there?

Its always easy to find a scapegoat when you really need one. 2018 Falcons were 10th in points scored in the NFL, 25th in points given up, finished 7-9. 2019 Falcons without Sarkisian were 13th in points scored in the NFL, 23rd in points given up, they finished 7-9.

I don't think he was the problem.

Regardless, there's no known established relationship there. He's an acquaintance at best, which is probably true for most people in the league.

People that Kyle is tight with are in a position to vouch for him and he's in a position to break down stuff to the very nitty gritty level of the offense since he has extensive experience in it. If the 49ers did draft Mac Jones, I can't see how you go about doing that without speaking to Sark and getting his detailed input on Jones.

I'm sure they would and have talked to him. I just don't see it as being on the same level as their connection to Beck. I also don't think the X and Os are the problem with the limited amount of interaction. They can probably discern how capable Jones is at that stuff in the zoom calls.