Jerry Rice Ran a 4.71 40 and Rocket Ismail Ran a 4.28

Excellent post. There's a huge difference once the pads are on.

Originally posted by Raul98:
Your right he never had a serious injury until his 13th year in the league that's pretty amazing now a days players cant go 13 games without suffering a injury. And Rice came back in the same season from his injury which was also amazing.

This is a bit off topic but, you know what baffles me the most? Some of the older fans on this site may remember this too....Jerry had a lot of ankle sprains during his career but it never seemed to slow him down at all. I can recall him showing up on the injury list almost every week with an ankle sprain during the 1988-1991 seasons LOL. I wish I had PVR back then of a sports news clip showing just how nasty his lower leg looked the week leading up to Super Bowl XXIII.
He was truly a machine.

Originally posted by JimHarbaugh:
Just goes to show you how important good route running is.

this right here..i think good route running develops separation..even if you aren't very fast if you have a cb on his heals playing a guessing game then you create separation..of course speed helps but a lot of speedsters are 1 pony tricks..unless you come across a freak like Calvin Johnson or AJ Green..like look at Boldin or Colston for instance..they arent slow but not a speedster but there route running is what creates there separation..compared to umm say Troy Williamson or Jon Baldwin who are fast as hell but cant and couldn't run a route..

Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Yeah, I don't think a fast 40 guarantees success, however it should get some guys a second look. Paul Richardson, for example, is a 3rd/4th rd prospect. He looks fast on the field, but how fast is hard to tell. If he runs a 4.48, it means he's fast, and has game speed, and enough to play in the NFL, and will remain in that range. If, however, he runs a 4.33 then it becomes apparent that his speed is special, and is a strong indicator that it will translate well to the NFL. He'll skyrocket into the 2nd round. 2 others to watch out for are Martavius Bryant and Kelvin Benjamin. With their size, if they truly light up the 40, that's some scare athleticism and speed to put out on the field on Sundays. If KB runs a sub 4.4, he'll be a top 10 pick. Simply too much upside. If, however, a guy who simply sucks comes out and runs a 4.3, he'll get drafted, but only as a project. Someone will see the raw speed and see if they can coach that into a football player. But agreed, by no means does it guarantee success.

I think you're getting at the key point of the thread: guys (especially receivers) are routinely over-hyped and even over-drafted based on their 40 times. Darrius Heyward-Bey and A.J. Jenkins come to mind immediately.

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Dang doesn't Joe Staley run 4.7. Hey looks like we already got the next jerry rice but this dude is 300lb maybe we should give him a chance.

Haha, maybe that's why Roman drew up that play where we sent Staley out on that wheel route and threw it to him.

Originally posted by JamesGatz83:

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Dang doesn't Joe Staley run 4.7. Hey looks like we already got the next jerry rice but this dude is 300lb maybe we should give him a chance.

Haha, maybe that's why Roman drew up that play where we sent Staley out on that wheel route and threw it to him.

staley went to college as a tight end, he had 11 catches for 130 yards and a td as a freshman

Originally posted by crabman82:
staley went to college as a tight end, he had 11 catches for 130 yards and a td as a freshman

Yep, still a pretty damn good athlete.

Originally posted by JamesGatz83:

Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
Yeah, I don't think a fast 40 guarantees success, however it should get some guys a second look. Paul Richardson, for example, is a 3rd/4th rd prospect. He looks fast on the field, but how fast is hard to tell. If he runs a 4.48, it means he's fast, and has game speed, and enough to play in the NFL, and will remain in that range. If, however, he runs a 4.33 then it becomes apparent that his speed is special, and is a strong indicator that it will translate well to the NFL. He'll skyrocket into the 2nd round. 2 others to watch out for are Martavius Bryant and Kelvin Benjamin. With their size, if they truly light up the 40, that's some scare athleticism and speed to put out on the field on Sundays. If KB runs a sub 4.4, he'll be a top 10 pick. Simply too much upside. If, however, a guy who simply sucks comes out and runs a 4.3, he'll get drafted, but only as a project. Someone will see the raw speed and see if they can coach that into a football player. But agreed, by no means does it guarantee success.

I think you're getting at the key point of the thread: guys (especially receivers) are routinely over-hyped and even over-drafted based on their 40 times. Darrius Heyward-Bey and A.J. Jenkins come to mind immediately.

What I really like about guys like Robert Herron and Donte Moncrief in particular, is they PLAY fast on the field. Herron is fast in general, but it also translates to playing fast with the ball in his hands. That's not always the case for smaller/faster WRs. Moncrief may not blow anyone away with his 40 time, but he just has a knack for gaining separation on defenders. He almost glides by corners/safeties in a way that reminds me of John Taylor.

Jerry Rice did NOT run a 4.71. People really need to stop making up 40 times for guys...I don't know what it is with football fans and the 40 times they literally pull out of their rear end because they just like to hear themselves talk (or see it, in the case of message boards).

Gil Brandt had Rice at 4.4 Another scout says he had him at 4.55. What he ran just depends on what scout you asked, but there has never in history been a scout who claimed he ran a "4.7." The idea is just absurd. Rice did NOT run slower than freak'n linemen, Jesus Christ.

By the way, there is no such thing as "game speed." Anyone who has ever coached football will tell you that all the guys who run the fastest without pads are the guys who run the fastest with them, and vice-versa. Speed is speed. There are two core problems here:

1. People confuse speed and quickness. Speed is how fast you cover ground. Quickness is how nimble and sudden you are in short areas. A lot of people who have no idea how to gauge speed judge it by how fast a player's legs move, when in actuality what you should be looking at is how fast they are covering round. This is why there are so many idiots out there who think Darren Sproles was among the fastest players in the league, or Dante Hall.

2. Different players have different rates of acceleration and on the field, those can often affect who has the edge in the open field. Some guys are extremely fast in later splits in the 40 yard dash, but they struggle so much in the earlier part of the run that their 40 times are slower than a guy they would outrun most of the time on the football field should they get just a step or two of a head start.

Just as an example, Player A may run a 4.4, and Player B a 4.55. However, Player B's pedestrian 4.55 time may be the result of a slower first 10 yards, let's say 1.65. That means after the first 10 yards, he runs the next 30 in 2.9. Player A may run a very fast first 10, let's say 1.4. However, he only runs the next 30 in 3.0.

If Player B is spotted a step or two on Player A (this may be nothing more than Player A being a corner who had to turn his hips and lost speed in transition) and is even or in front of Player A after 10 yards, he can run away from Player A because he is faster over the next 30.

It ain't the freak'n pads and it sure as hell ain't the freak'n "routes." Route running is the most overrated and excessively talked about attribute for a receiver outside of hands/drops (every receiver drops passes). You could count on one hand the list of players over the past 30 years who were such good route runners that they could actually get corners off balance by making sharp cuts and exploding out of their breaks.

Jerry Rice was NOT one of them.

Isaac Bruce would be the primary example of that rare ability.

40 times are a bit misleading , that time is great if you're returning a punt or a kickoff or going on a fly pattern but what good is that speed if you can't run routes. If you can't separate you're not a good receiver there are a lot more receivers that have slower 40 times who are open way more than the fast 40's. Knowledge of the game is better than 40 times
I will take a 6'4 or taller guy with a 4.57 sp. over speed guys
I would move up and select Mike Evans no. 1

40 time is not the end all, be all... but I shalt not allow you to urinate on our draft knee-jerk excitement!

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

If you watch guys play enough, it becomes obvious who is truly fast out on the field and who isn't. Every year some guy comes out of nowhere, runs like a 4.35 and people lose their minds but when you go back and look at his performances, he doesn't play nearly close to that speed. I guess, beware the allure of experienced track athletes who have an edge in these drills and people who have been coached up for the Combine events but their athletic performance isn't reflected in the quality of their performance out on the football field.

This.

Imho, all of the combine is overrated just because, like Phoenix said, you can coach these things.

Scouts and personnel people have a whole variety of tools that they employ in the evaluation of players. The combine is only one of those tools.

The most important benefit of the combine is that every team receives extensive, uniform medical exams for each player.

At the combine, scouts can see how players at a position group perform in the position drills and in the events. Even though the events and the drills might not be directly and immediately related to a player's ability, the combine does provide scouts with a common comparative view of the athletic ability and techniques of the attendees.

The combine gives players from the small schools an opportunity, and they do not have many, to compete side by side with the players from the big schools. This direct competition helps the teams evaluate these players. If nothing else the combine can tell the team, "go back and watch that guy's film again."

The combine is a like a job interview. Some players have clearly spent their time getting ready for this interview, and that says something about their work ethic.

In short, even though the combine is flawed, it has its utility. And I enjoy watching it.

Not sure that is accurate for Rice, but Boldin did run a 4.71 at the combine. That's a fact.

I guess there is no accurate metric for being a bad ass.

Originally posted by UghNotAgain49:
Jerry Rice did NOT run a 4.71. People really need to stop making up 40 times for guys...I don't know what it is with football fans and the 40 times they literally pull out of their rear end because they just like to hear themselves talk (or see it, in the case of message boards).
Gil Brandt had Rice at 4.4 Another scout says he had him at 4.55. What he ran just depends on what scout you asked, but there has never in history been a scout who claimed he ran a "4.7." The idea is just absurd. Rice did NOT run slower than freak'n linemen, Jesus Christ.

By the way, there is no such thing as "game speed." Anyone who has ever coached football will tell you that all the guys who run the fastest without pads are the guys who run the fastest with them, and vice-versa. Speed is speed. There are two core problems here:

1. People confuse speed and quickness. Speed is how fast you cover ground. Quickness is how nimble and sudden you are in short areas. A lot of people who have no idea how to gauge speed judge it by how fast a player's legs move, when in actuality what you should be looking at is how fast they are covering round. This is why there are so many idiots out there who think Darren Sproles was among the fastest players in the league, or Dante Hall.

2. Different players have different rates of acceleration and on the field, those can often affect who has the edge in the open field. Some guys are extremely fast in later splits in the 40 yard dash, but they struggle so much in the earlier part of the run that their 40 times are slower than a guy they would outrun most of the time on the football field should they get just a step or two of a head start.

Just as an example, Player A may run a 4.4, and Player B a 4.55. However, Player B's pedestrian 4.55 time may be the result of a slower first 10 yards, let's say 1.65. That means after the first 10 yards, he runs the next 30 in 2.9. Player A may run a very fast first 10, let's say 1.4. However, he only runs the next 30 in 3.0.

If Player B is spotted a step or two on Player A (this may be nothing more than Player A being a corner who had to turn his hips and lost speed in transition) and is even or in front of Player A after 10 yards, he can run away from Player A because he is faster over the next 30.

It ain't the freak'n pads and it sure as hell ain't the freak'n "routes." Route running is the most overrated and excessively talked about attribute for a receiver outside of hands/drops (every receiver drops passes). You could count on one hand the list of players over the past 30 years who were such good route runners that they could actually get corners off balance by making sharp cuts and exploding out of their breaks.

Jerry Rice was NOT one of them.

Isaac Bruce would be the primary example of that rare ability.

You could also make a list of all the players who are no longer in the league beyond 2 seasons because they lack these skills (which IMO is a critical trait for a WR).

Besides Jerry Rice (who wasn't incredibly fast even if you clock him at 4.55), there's:
Marvin Harrison
Isaac Bruce
Herman Moore
Cris Carter
Reggie Wayne
Hines Ward
Anquan Boldin
Larry Fitzgerald
Jimmy Smith
Antonio Freeman
Wes Welker
Wayne Chrebet
Keyshawn Johnson

These guys all lasted long in the NFL not because of their elite speed, but their ability to run precise routes and make hands catches. Players who lack this talent don't typically last very long.....Terrell Owens and Randy Moss being the exceptions.

Originally posted by DarkKnight1680:

I can't for the life of me figure out why the NFL insists on only doing the track-style 40. How hard would it be to add position-specific speed-timing drills, IN PADS?

WRs start standing up, go on the whistle and run a 40 yard fly route, and they have to look over their shoulder for the last 10 yards. CBs start in normal defensive stance, and at the whistle they open hips and run that same 40 yard fly route. Defensive linemen start in stance and run 10-15 yards in a curve around a barrier. Etc.

Wouldn't this give teams a much better idea of true speed, in pads, in a game situation? Why does it matter if one WR is better at getting in and out of a track stance? It doesn't!

True enough, and while your at it, have 'em put on cleats and run on real grass.....oh yea and soak their uniforms with sweat also....