Originally posted by SF69ers:
you're not gonna get anywhere with Phoenix when it comes to debating on a player. he keeps bringing up inconsistencies and Hunt disappearing and looking lost, as if he's watched EVERY single game he's played. all the d-linemen that should be available at 31 has inconsistencies.
All the people here trashing the idea of selecting him is expecting a perfect player at #31
Yea he picks apart prospects he doesnt like and praises the ones he like despite then having just as many inconsistencies. Its a very subjective way of analyzing a prospect. Hunt disappeared at times like every other prospect were looking at a 31 yet hes awful and the others are not. Hunt is physically better jn every way yet thats not improtant. Makes sense.
Originally posted by 9erred:
Pick 31- Jesse Williams Alabama. whoo hoo.
Trade up in round 2 for Margus Hunt -SMU.
Cowboy will train Margus Hunt to be his second coming. I was watching his interview and he is critical of himself and wants to get better.
Running a 4.6 40, the interviewers where gushing over, but he quickly pointed out for DL the 3 cone drill is more accruate and he dominated that.
I may be wrong, but I doubt he makes it into the 2nd round. (unless we happen to have the Chiefs 2nd round pick, which is essentially a 1st round pick)
He said trade up for him in the second. If he makes it passed carolina we could easily reach for him
but i think hes a 1st rounder. Just a hunch.
Vacarro won't be around either and if he is we have pick him. Hes a good tackler but his coverage is top notch. We need a guy like him. Plus both our safeties could be gone. We would have to the market and the.draft is way cheaper. Definitely the ideal scenario.
Originally posted by SF69ers:
you're not gonna get anywhere with Phoenix when it comes to debating on a player. he keeps bringing up inconsistencies and Hunt disappearing and looking lost, as if he's watched EVERY single game he's played. all the d-linemen that should be available at 31 has inconsistencies.
All the people here trashing the idea of selecting him is expecting a perfect player at #31
Yea he picks apart prospects he doesnt like and praises the ones he like despite then having just as many inconsistencies. Its a very subjective way of analyzing a prospect. Hunt disappeared at times like every other prospect were looking at a 31 yet hes awful and the others are not. Hunt is physically better jn every way yet thats not improtant. Makes sense.
He is way too black and white and authoritative sometimes with his analysis, but I'll give Phoenix a break, though; he's obviously passionate about college football and the draft. That said, he did drive me nuts last year with his insistence that Tommy Streeter was the second coming and everyone else sucked because they weren't 6'5" or didn't run a 4.4.
Bottom line, though: everybody who follows the draft tends to form over-the-top opinions about things they can't possibly know for certain.
[ Edited by JamesGatz83 on Feb 26, 2013 at 6:09 PM ]
Originally posted by eonblue:
Yea he picks apart prospects he doesnt like and praises the ones he like despite then having just as many inconsistencies. Its a very subjective way of analyzing a prospect. Hunt disappeared at times like every other prospect were looking at a 31 yet hes awful and the others are not. Hunt is physically better jn every way yet thats not improtant. Makes sense.
You know who was better physically in every single way...Vernon Gholston. My problem with Hunt is that I find people doing the exact thing I'm being accused of, talking up all his physical potential and completely understating just how raw he is, how lost he looked in several games this year, how lost he looked at the Pro-Bowl, he's a workout warrior that may develop into a good player....."might" being the operative word. At age 26, that's a hell of a risk to take for a guy who started playing football a little over 3 years ago.
People are taking his physical abilities and just automatically assuming that he'll learn to play football as a professional. He's currently one of the least skilled defensive lineman in the draft, raw in every way. I find that draft picks based solely on hopes and dreams because the guy is an athlete....don't usually work out so well.
So yeah, all the people criticizing me, are doing the exact same crap, you have a guy that you haven't watched extensively, but you LOVE his physical abilities and extrapolate that into him somehow obtaining GOAT status simply because he runs and jumps well. As good as Hunt looks wearing shorts and sneakers, he doesn't look remotely near as athletic when you watch him on tape, out on the playing field. Am I the only one saying this? Hell no, but people will think whatever they want, after all this place was all over Adam Carriker and Taylor Mays at one point too.
If the point of the draft was to build a team of Olympians to go out and compete with other nations, he'd near the top of the board, but since the point is to draft actual football players, having stellar athletic ability isn't enough by itself. After this past's draft experience, it should be clear that you don't drop a 1st rounder on a project, based on hopes and wishes.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Feb 26, 2013 at 7:07 PM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
You know who was better physically in every single way...Vernon Gholston. My problem with Hunt is that I find people doing the exact thing I'm being accused of, talking up all his physical potential and completely understating just how raw he is, how lost he looked in several games this year, how lost he looked at the Pro-Bowl, he's a workout warrior that may develop into a good player....."might" being the operative word. At age 26, that's a hell of a risk to take for a guy who started playing football a little over 3 years ago.
People are taking his physical abilities and just automatically assuming that he'll learn to play football as a professional. He's currently one of the least skilled defensive lineman in the draft, raw in every way. I find that draft picks based solely on hopes and dreams because the guy is an athlete....don't usually work out so well.
So yeah, all the people criticizing me, are doing the exact same crap, you have a guy that you haven't watched extensively, but you LOVE his physical abilities and extrapolate that into him somehow obtaining GOAT status simply because he runs and jumps well. As good as Hunt looks wearing shorts and sneakers, he doesn't look remotely near as athletic when you watch him on tape, out on the playing field. Am I the only one saying this? Hell no, but people will think whatever they want, after all this place was all over Adam Carriker and Taylor Mays at one point too.
If the point of the draft was to build a team of Olympians to go out and compete with other nations, he'd near the top of the board, but since the point is to draft actual football players, having stellar athletic ability isn't enough by itself.
Thats my point. Your not the only one saying this about him. People want to criticize Hunt and says he awful player but somehow Jesse Williams, Johnathan Hankins, John Jenkins are flawless prospects. Hunt definitely has a stigma attached to him.
I dare anyone to watch this video and tell me this guy can't dominate. Please show me a video on a DE/NT that will make it to 31 that is more dominating than this. All this guy needs is someone to take him under their wing and emphasize the tricks of the trade. I hear we got this Justin Smith thats pretty good at 3/4 DE. I mean he even moves like Justin.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Thats my point. Your not the only one saying this about him. People want to criticize Hunt and says he awful player but somehow Jesse Williams, Johnathan Hankins, John Jenkins are flawless prospects. Hunt definitely has a stigma attached to him.
I dare anyone to watch this video and tell me this guy can't dominate. Please show me a video on a DE/NT that will make it to 31 that is more dominating than this. All this guy needs is someone to take him under their wing and emphasize the tricks of the trade. I hear we got this Justin Smith thats pretty good at 3/4 DE. I mean he even moves like Justin.
Oh look, its a replay of the same game that people continually post, against a Fresno State team whose offensive line arguably had about 2 solid starters with one of them out against SMU, leading Hunt to be matched up with a guy who is the Bulldogs equivalent of Chilo Rachal but ignore the majority of games where he simply disappeared and was non-existent. The reason why so many people are critical of Hunt is because he doesn't "play to his speed", watch him in an average game situation and he doesn't look like a guy that runs a 4.6, his motor simply disappears as well.
Physically he was superior to anyone else that stepped out on the field, he was stronger, he was faster, he played against a low level of competition for the most part, so talking about this guy like a first rounder, where was the dominance???? Where was the ability to consistently destroy offensive linemen, where was the motor and the explosiveness, game in and game out?
Why people push players like Jesse Williams, Hankins and so on, is not because those guys don't have their flaws as well,its because those guys got it done against higher levels of competition and were simply much more consistent.
With Hunt, you've got arguably the biggest boom/bust factor in the draft, you're basically swinging for the fences and hoping that it'll be a homerun when you can easily strike out. I'm far more confident of someone like Jesse Williams being a consistent, maybe not spectacular player, but a consistent and steady player who is ready to contribute starting next year, exactly what you want from your 1st round pick. If you take Hunt and he fails to make an impact next year, along with Jenkins, that's back to back first rounders who should be at least somewhat regular contributors who simply leave this team with big holes.
As far as being a 3-4 DE, having a guy who if anything was consistent at being unable to hold the edge, isn't necessarily the best proposition. Yes, he's great on special teams, but you don't draft a guy in the 1st round because he's tall and can block kicks. I see him as a long-term project that will need 2-3 seasons to develop when the 49ers need someone who can contribute on a rotational basis starting next year. One of the biggest problems that this team had was that they didn't have quality backups to give Justin Smith and Ray McDonald a breather, you don't go out and get a guy that is raw as hell and think that will alleviate that situation.
What I can say safely is that someone like Jesse Williams, Datone Jones, Jonathan Jenkins, are all guys who can contribute starting next year and become a regular part of the DL rotation. I can't and won't say the same about Hunt. The last thing IMO the 49ers need is another 1st round draft pick to redshirt.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Feb 26, 2013 at 7:34 PM ]
Hunt is still a 43 exclusive player right now. Simply not stout enough at the point of attack to play the 34 DE role, and not fleet enough to play the 34 OLB. I know that some feel he is a sexy pick, but he would be a bad fit on this team, in this system.
Anyone who watched him during Senior Bowl week saw a really raw guy who is not going to contribute for a couple of years, if at all.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Hunt is still a 43 exclusive player right now. Simply not stout enough at the point of attack to play the 34 DE role, and not fleet enough to play the 34 OLB. I know that some feel he is a sexy pick, but he would be a bad fit on this team, in this system.
Anyone who watched him during Senior Bowl week saw a really raw guy who is not going to contribute for a couple of years, if at all.
But he runs like a 4.2 40 and can jump 25 feet in the air and he can block kicks....pretty sure you can teach him to fetch and roll over too.
Wow. He blew up TRIPLE teams a couple of times there, but I can see where some of the draft guys question his motor. I think his "loaf plays" are actually more a result of him not knowing what to do. Is the play over, can I still hit that guy, do I stay outside or chase the ball here? Lots of thinking slows down your play. When his movement seemed to indicate that he knew what to do, and he kept his pads down, he looked impressive.
The question for me is, how long until he plays instinctively 100% of the time?
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Oh look, its a replay of the same game that people continually post, against a Fresno State team whose offensive line arguably had about 2 solid starters and was porous at times.....but ignore the majority of games where he simply disappeared and was non-existent. The reason why so many people are critical of Hunt is because he doesn't "play to his speed", watch him in an average game situation and he doesn't look like a guy that runs a 4.6, his motor simply disappears as well.
Why people push players like Jesse Williams, Hankins and so on, is not because those guys don't have their flaws as well,its because those guys got it done against higher levels of competition and were simply much more consistent.
With Hunt, you've got arguably the biggest boom/bust factor in the draft, you're basically swinging for the fences and hoping that it'll be a homerun when you can easily strike out. I'm far more confident of someone like Jesse Williams being a consistent, maybe not spectacular player, but a consistent and steady player who is ready to contribute starting next year, exactly what you want from your 1st round pick. If you take Hunt and he fails to make an impact next year, along with Jenkins, that's back to back first rounders who should be at least somewhat regular contributors who simply leave this team with big holes.
As far as being a 3-4 DE, having a guy who if anything was consistent at being unable to hold the edge, isn't necessarily the best proposition. Yes, he's great on special teams, but you don't draft a guy in the 1st round because he's tall and can block kicks. I see him as a long-term project that will need 2-3 seasons to develop when the 49ers need someone who can contribute on a rotational basis starting next year. One of the biggest problems that this team had was that they didn't have quality backups to give Justin Smith and Ray McDonald a breather, you don't go out and get a guy that is raw as hell and think that will alleviate that situation.
What I can say safely is that someone like Jesse Williams, Datone Jones, Jonathan Jenkins, are all guys who can contribute starting next year and become a regular part of the DL rotation. I can't and won't say the same about Hunt. The last thing IMO the 49ers need is another 1st round draft pick to redshirt.
Jesse Williams? You mean the guy that was injured most of the NCS and SECC?
And Jenkins? The guy that got ran at for 300 yards in the SECC? The guy that couldn't play his bowl game because he couldn't make it to class?
CONSISTENT!
I'm not trying to compare prospects either. That's not the point. The point is people look at prospects with their own prejudice. You watch that dominating display and automatically you call it that "same old video" where he played against an Oline in shambles. Why can't the video just speak for itself? No one talks about the Bama/Georgia game where Jenkins watched player run by him and was ready for a nap by the 2nd half. Or Hankins vs Michigan where the center dealt with him easily and the C/G was no contest. I've watch bad video on Margus too. And just like Hankins, Jenkins, and Williams I see redeemable qualities. Why can't you see redeemable qualities in Hunt when I show them to you? I knew you would call out that video because clearly you have no answer to it. It contradicts everything you have to say. The guy finished with 8 sacks 28 tackles 1 int 2 pd. Is that inconsistent? You have no idea what this guy could do in his first year. He could easily rush the passer on passing downs while he learns gap management. I mean this guy is what you want really. I mean didn't the team decline after Smiths injury? Aren't people calling for his eventual replacement? Whats wrong with Hunt who clearly fits the bill despite his rawness?
Originally posted by eonblue:
Jesse Williams? You mean the guy that was injured most of the NCS and SECC?
And Jenkins? The guy that got ran at for 300 yards in the SECC? The guy that couldn't play his bowl game because he couldn't make it to class?
CONSISTENT!
I'm not trying to compare prospects either. That's not the point. The point is people look at prospects with their own prejudice. You watch that dominating display and automatically you call it that "same old video" where he played against an Oline in shambles. Why can't the video just speak for itself? No one talks about the Bama/Georgia game where Jenkins watched player run by him and was ready for a nap by the 2nd half. Or Hankins vs Michigan where the center dealt with him easily and the C/G was no contest. I've watch bad video on Margus too. And just like Hankins, Jenkins, and Williams I see redeemable qualities. Why can't you see redeemable qualities in Hunt when I show them to you? I knew you would call out that video because clearly you have no answer to it. It contradicts everything you have to say. The guy finished with 8 sacks 28 tackles 1 int 2 pd. Is that inconsistent? You have no idea what this guy could do in his first year. He could easily rush the passer on passing downs while he learns gap management. I mean this guy is what you want really. I mean didn't the team decline after Smiths injury? Aren't people calling for his eventual replacement? Whats wrong with Hunt who clearly fits the bill despite his rawness?
I'm not going to argue back and forth with you. I'm also not sure how Jesse Williams being injured somehow reflects poorly on the rest of his body of work.
Bottomline, I can find far more good tape on Jesse Williams and other similar players than Hunt who played at a lower level and should have utterly dominated players who were inferior physically in every way. But dominate he did not and instead was known more for his special teams exploits than anything else. Yep, he's got freakish athleticism....and yet it doesn't translate readily to the playing field. That everyone resorts to the same exact game to praise a certain prospect is pretty telling, that generally says the guy hasn't been all too stellar in many games, which is why in spite of all his physical gifts, he's got an amazing trick of pulling the disappearing man act and simply being invisible in a lot of games. You don't see many guys turning into great defensive linemen when they have as iffy a motor as this guy does. Do you think there were people questioning Justin Smith's motor coming out of college? As I've said before, he's a great athlete, not a great football player and that athleticism, more often than not, isn't readily evident out on the football field.
The reality of the situation is that this team needs someone that can be a steady contributor, not another redshirt project that could blow up in their faces.
Also keep in mind who started this thread to begin with. I was and have been totally on board with Hunt as a 3rd rounder, but considering the plethora of talent that will be around in the 1st and 2nd rounds at a variety of positions, I think it would be quite foolish to opt for a project that early, no matter how high his athletic potential might be. This team is knocking on the door of a championship, blowing draft pick's on projects doesn't mesh with the need for players that can be regular and ready contributors right off the bat.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Feb 26, 2013 at 8:12 PM ]
