CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Wait a second, the Packers have below average talent in the secondary? Seriously. Woodson is older but he's still a badass and Williams had one of the best seasons of any CB. Not to mention their safeties are pretty good. Same thing with the Steelers, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good and then Polamolu and Clark are 2 of the best safeties in the NFL.

I was referring to CBs, and yes Woodson is a great player, but he's not the same guy he was even a year ago. Yes, Tramon Williams is having a great season, but he was an udrafted free agent, which means the Pack didn't have to spend ANY draft pick on him, much less a top pick...same goes with Sam Shields.

I agree, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good CBs, but again, neither are considered great (which was my point). And the Ravens pieced together a collection of CBs who were castoffs (Chris Carr, Josh Wilson and Fabian Washington)...all pretty decent defenders with speed and ball skills (a recurring theme), but made to look much better because of what's going on in front of them.

You still have to have talent at the cornerback spot, no doubt about it. My point was, it doesn't have to be GREAT talent, if you have pass rushers (and great schemes) like those teams do.

Yeah but Baltimore didn't have a great pass rush this year, they only had 27 sacks. The main thing they had going for them on D was an amazing defensive line and amazing run defense and Ed Reed roaming around in the secondary.

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.

if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.

what about a 2nd-rounder?

Maybe, my fear is that because we pick "later" in the 2nd due of placement flip, we could lose out on the fringe 1st-2nd round CB's. If the better guys are gone the value at CB might not be great so we either have to reach or bypass till later. I'm assuming we go after a QB in the 3rd, so it does worry me. If we don't get a CB early then we can pretty much write off a new starter. Both CB and OLB should be targets in rounds 1 and 2, but priority and value is up to Trent.

I think the Niners take best player available at CB or OLB at number 7 and if there is a QB they really like in the second round they grab him then....rather than wait until the third when the likelihood of that guy being available becomes much less.

In the third they go CB or OLB, whichever position they don't cover in the first round. IMHO, they will go after the best pass rusher at OLB or DE they can at number 7.

Cameron Jordan was unstoppable at the Senior Bowl and he would look real nice opposite Justin Smith at LDE in the Niners' 3-4. Good DLmen are really hard to find (as hard as good pass rushers) and I think Cameron is going to be another Richard Seymour. Interesting dilemma.......If it came down to Quinn or Jordan, which one would you all take?

I think Dareus is a better prospect than Jordan. Like Jordan, he is a load to block, but he is bigger and stronger. I think a better question would be Quinn or Dareus. I would still pick Quinn with Dareus not too far behind.

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Wait a second, the Packers have below average talent in the secondary? Seriously. Woodson is older but he's still a badass and Williams had one of the best seasons of any CB. Not to mention their safeties are pretty good. Same thing with the Steelers, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good and then Polamolu and Clark are 2 of the best safeties in the NFL.

I was referring to CBs, and yes Woodson is a great player, but he's not the same guy he was even a year ago. Yes, Tramon Williams is having a great season, but he was an udrafted free agent, which means the Pack didn't have to spend ANY draft pick on him, much less a top pick...same goes with Sam Shields.

I agree, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good CBs, but again, neither are considered great (which was my point). And the Ravens pieced together a collection of CBs who were castoffs (Chris Carr, Josh Wilson and Fabian Washington)...all pretty decent defenders with speed and ball skills (a recurring theme), but made to look much better because of what's going on in front of them.

You still have to have talent at the cornerback spot, no doubt about it. My point was, it doesn't have to be GREAT talent, if you have pass rushers (and great schemes) like those teams do.

Yeah but Baltimore didn't have a great pass rush this year, they only had 27 sacks. The main thing they had going for them on D was an amazing defensive line and amazing run defense and Ed Reed roaming around in the secondary.

They didn't have a big sack total this year, but if you watch their games, they put a lot of heat on the QB...that's almost as good as a sack in terms of how it positively impacts the play of your CBs.

How about we sign Ray Edwards from the Vikes. He can go to 3-4 and olb. He drops into coverage a lot anyways and He's a good Pass Rusher. With Franklin and Justin Smith and Isaac that would be awesome. Brooks or LaBoy on the other side. Once you get a guy consistently rush ing the passer. That reduces the need for another corner. It doesn't negate it but it helps in pass defense. Manny isn't good enough. PERIOD! Manny is a good athlete but not strong enough and ferocious enough to get the job done. We want a Julius Peppers or James Harrison type and Manny isn't even in the same stratosphere as those guys.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by tohara3:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

this

thread can be closed.

Wait a second, the Packers have below average talent in the secondary? Seriously. Woodson is older but he's still a badass and Williams had one of the best seasons of any CB. Not to mention their safeties are pretty good. Same thing with the Steelers, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good and then Polamolu and Clark are 2 of the best safeties in the NFL.

I was referring to CBs, and yes Woodson is a great player, but he's not the same guy he was even a year ago. Yes, Tramon Williams is having a great season, but he was an udrafted free agent, which means the Pack didn't have to spend ANY draft pick on him, much less a top pick...same goes with Sam Shields.

I agree, McFadden and Taylor are pretty good CBs, but again, neither are considered great (which was my point). And the Ravens pieced together a collection of CBs who were castoffs (Chris Carr, Josh Wilson and Fabian Washington)...all pretty decent defenders with speed and ball skills (a recurring theme), but made to look much better because of what's going on in front of them.

You still have to have talent at the cornerback spot, no doubt about it. My point was, it doesn't have to be GREAT talent, if you have pass rushers (and great schemes) like those teams do.

Yeah but Baltimore didn't have a great pass rush this year, they only had 27 sacks. The main thing they had going for them on D was an amazing defensive line and amazing run defense and Ed Reed roaming around in the secondary.

They didn't have a big sack total this year, but if you watch their games, they put a lot of heat on the QB...that's almost as good as a sack in terms of how it positively impacts the play of your CBs.

That's true. To be honest with you though man, I don't think it really matters whether you have a strong secondary or linebacking corp or whatever. The bottom line is you need multiple playmakers at each spot(DL, LB, DB) and a good DC/scheme to attack an offense with. I mean, I can't imagine that a duo of Peterson/Willis would not make a great tandem for the next 10 years. Same with Willis/Miller or Willis/Quinn or even maybe Willis/Amukamara. But I would personally love to add Dareus or Jordan, since we'd possibly have the best DL in the league after that. If you look at the Jets, they had a really good secondary with Cromartie and Wilson and Revis. If you look at the Ravens, their main strength was the DL with Ngata/Gregg/Redding/Cody. Yeah Lewis/Reed/Suggs are really good as well, but IMO their strength was their DL and it had a lot to do with them being able to shut down the run. GB also had a real strong DL. So you just need good players period IMO.

QB is our biggest need probably, so if Gabbert is there you kind of have to take him unless Harbaugh really doesn't want him. But he probably won't be there IMO, so then it comes down to the defensive players. I'd be happy with 1 of Peterson/Miller/Quinn/Jordan/Dareus/Prince. You just have to see who looks like the best prospect that'll be available to us after the combine.

Originally posted by gavindirishmen:
How about we sign Ray Edwards from the Vikes. He can go to 3-4 and olb. He drops into coverage a lot anyways and He's a good Pass Rusher. With Franklin and Justin Smith and Isaac that would be awesome. Brooks or LaBoy on the other side. Once you get a guy consistently rush ing the passer. That reduces the need for another corner. It doesn't negate it but it helps in pass defense. Manny isn't good enough. PERIOD! Manny is a good athlete but not strong enough and ferocious enough to get the job done. We want a Julius Peppers or James Harrison type and Manny isn't even in the same stratosphere as those guys.

2 things.

1. Ray Edwards? Are you serious? Talk about a guy who benefits from the guys playing next to him and still doesn't put up huge numbers. If he comes cheap it's one thing but there's nothing about him that indicates he'd make a good conversion to OLB in a 3-4 D

2. Julius Peppers and James Harrison couldn't be more different from each other.

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by communist:

Originally posted by jreff22:

How would you classify us at CB? Nate could be gone, so we have Spencer and nobody....that looks less then mediocre to me , even if we kept Nate.

if our qbs are so damn bad, dont you think that even a mid-rounder will upgrade them?

Nope, Brown was a mid rounder and he should be better then any mid round CB project. Expecting a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounder to take the place of a #1 CB is ridiculous.

what about a 2nd-rounder?

Maybe, my fear is that because we pick "later" in the 2nd due of placement flip, we could lose out on the fringe 1st-2nd round CB's. If the better guys are gone the value at CB might not be great so we either have to reach or bypass till later. I'm assuming we go after a QB in the 3rd, so it does worry me. If we don't get a CB early then we can pretty much write off a new starter. Both CB and OLB should be targets in rounds 1 and 2, but priority and value is up to Trent.

I think the Niners take best player available at CB or OLB at number 7 and if there is a QB they really like in the second round they grab him then....rather than wait until the third when the likelihood of that guy being available becomes much less.

In the third they go CB or OLB, whichever position they don't cover in the first round. IMHO, they will go after the best pass rusher at OLB or DE they can at number 7.

Cameron Jordan was unstoppable at the Senior Bowl and he would look real nice opposite Justin Smith at LDE in the Niners' 3-4. Good DLmen are really hard to find (as hard as good pass rushers) and I think Cameron is going to be another Richard Seymour. Interesting dilemma.......If it came down to Quinn or Jordan, which one would you all take?

Really like what I've read about him:

"I evaluated he was a dominant, impact player who was constantly in the opponent's backfield making/disrupting plays." and "shocking quickness."
From Sporting News.

He may be the impact player the 9ers need to add, especially across from J Smith, who is also amazing.

The 9ers use to rotate players to keep them fresh and adding Jordan may allow them to do this again.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 3, 2011 at 07:44:02 ]