Denzel Ward

Thoughts? I would like to know opinions between Ward and Jackson.

Lacks the height, length and size they'll look for at outside corner.

Originally posted by Heroism:

Lacks the height, length and size they'll look for at outside corner.

Yeah but this guy is really freakin good.

Originally posted by Hysterikal:
Yeah but this guy is really freakin good.

I'm only relaying what the team wants.

Likely CB1 or 2, but excells in areas that aren't asked of our corners. Value is better spent elsewhere

Slot corner

He's overrated imo. I watched a bunch of big ten games and he doesn't stand out. He got fried by Simmie Cobbs at the beginning of the season. I just don't see him being a #1 but he will be oversrafted because of Marshon Lattimore's success.

The obsession with size in Carroll's iteration of the Cover 3 scheme that we're running is wildly overrated.

What happened is that taller and bigger CBs who lacked the lateral agility to play well in man-based schemes (think guys like Browner and Sherman) were comparatively undervalued in the draft and FA, but were good fits in a press cover 3 which masked those deficiencies, and made them good value propositions in the scheme in the draft and FA.

But then as Cover 3 diffused across the league (along with zone coverage more generally -- I don't think there's a single team that spent more than 50% of their snaps in man, and the Seahawks oddly spend as much time in man as anyone these days) and the NFL cracked down on the five yard window in press coverage, taller CBs started to be overvalued and it's now the CBs at 5-11 and 5-10 who have become undervalued.

I guess someone could argue that you want taller outside CBs if you're playing deep thirds and trying to not give up the long ball, but guys like Dontae Johnson and Cary Williams make it incredibly clear that being 6'1"+ isn't the key to success in the scheme.

Carroll is very clearly stuck in his ways (his overvaluing of size at outside CB is like Baalke's overly-obsessive orientation to arm length), but hopefully Saleh is young enough and enough iterations away from Carroll's quirks to not replicate this.

To be clear, none of this means that the 9ers should draft Denzel Ward, but writing him off because he's 5'10" is absolutely foolish, IMO. It's the type of mistake that Carroll and the Seahawks would definitely make, but I'd really hope it's not a mistake we'd replicate.

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

The obsession with size in Carroll's iteration of the Cover 3 scheme that we're running is wildly overrated.

What happened is that taller and bigger CBs who lacked the lateral agility to play well in man-based schemes (think guys like Browner and Sherman) were comparatively undervalued in the draft and FA, but were good fits in a press cover 3 which masked those deficiencies, and made them good value propositions in the scheme in the draft and FA.

But then as Cover 3 diffused across the league (along with zone coverage more generally -- I don't think there's a single team that spent more than 50% of their snaps in man, and the Seahawks oddly spend as much time in man as anyone these days) and the NFL cracked down on the five yard window in press coverage, taller CBs started to be overvalued and it's now the CBs at 5-11 and 5-10 who have become undervalued.

I guess someone could argue that you want taller outside CBs if you're playing deep thirds and trying to not give up the long ball, but guys like Dontae Johnson and Cary Williams make it incredibly clear that being 6'1"+ isn't the key to success in the scheme.

Carroll is very clearly stuck in his ways (his overvaluing of size at outside CB is like Baalke's overly-obsessive orientation to arm length), but hopefully Saleh is young enough and enough iterations away from Carroll's quirks to not replicate this.

To be clear, none of this means that the 9ers should draft Denzel Ward, but writing him off because he's 5'10" is absolutely foolish, IMO. It's the type of mistake that Carroll and the Seahawks would definitely make, but I'd really hope it's not a mistake we'd replicate.

Very well put. Made a similar argument about how big corners are the reason shorter receivers have exploded on the scene. From AB and OBJ to just the shorter quick slot guys. Guys like Jason Verrett, Ronald Darby, Tavon Young and many others were passed over for big tall corners. While Marcus Peters, Lattimore and PP21 are the unicorns that have size and the ability to hang in Man coverage they are also very obvious from the get go.

I'm a huge fan of Jaire Alexander and think he's hands down the best DB in this draft he will probably go in the 2nd round due to injury and size.

I understand their reasoning. Corners only play on the redline(vertical axis) in this scheme. Thus, they need them to be in-phase(top leverage) at all times. Whether that's in press and bail or off with shuffle technique, they want guys to be able to use their body and length to dominate the vertical axis and use the boundary to squeeze WRs.

I like that Ahkello is a tremendous athlete in addition to being tall and long. He's also incredibly intelligent, which is necessary to play in a zone scheme where CBs are cross reading multiple WRs. Those are the type of guys I presume they're aiming for.

Originally posted by Heroism:

I understand their reasoning. Corners only play on the redline(vertical axis) in this scheme. Thus, they need them to be in-phase(top leverage) at all times. Whether that's in press and bail or off with shuffle technique, they want guys to be able to use their body and length to dominate the vertical axis and use the boundary to squeeze WRs.

I like that Ahkello is a tremendous athlete in addition to being tall and long. He's also incredibly intelligent, which is necessary to play in a zone scheme where CBs are crossing-reading multiple WRs. Those are the type of guys I presume they're aiming for.

Yeah I get the reasoning behind it. But I always seem to find a short Corner that I crush hard on... it's a problem

Reports are teams are in love with this kid (CB1)

Scouts are saying he's gonna run in the 4.2s and even Marshon Lattimore said he's more athletic then him.

I think he will go 1st, Jackson has the best size but his speed is debated, Alexander is my favorite CB.

Edit that Fitzpatrick will go 1st but as FS

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
The obsession with size in Carroll's iteration of the Cover 3 scheme that we're running is wildly overrated.

What happened is that taller and bigger CBs who lacked the lateral agility to play well in man-based schemes (think guys like Browner and Sherman) were comparatively undervalued in the draft and FA, but were good fits in a press cover 3 which masked those deficiencies, and made them good value propositions in the scheme in the draft and FA.

But then as Cover 3 diffused across the league (along with zone coverage more generally -- I don't think there's a single team that spent more than 50% of their snaps in man, and the Seahawks oddly spend as much time in man as anyone these days) and the NFL cracked down on the five yard window in press coverage, taller CBs started to be overvalued and it's now the CBs at 5-11 and 5-10 who have become undervalued.

I guess someone could argue that you want taller outside CBs if you're playing deep thirds and trying to not give up the long ball, but guys like Dontae Johnson and Cary Williams make it incredibly clear that being 6'1"+ isn't the key to success in the scheme.

Carroll is very clearly stuck in his ways (his overvaluing of size at outside CB is like Baalke's overly-obsessive orientation to arm length), but hopefully Saleh is young enough and enough iterations away from Carroll's quirks to not replicate this.

To be clear, none of this means that the 9ers should draft Denzel Ward, but writing him off because he's 5'10" is absolutely foolish, IMO. It's the type of mistake that Carroll and the Seahawks would definitely make, but I'd really hope it's not a mistake we'd replicate.

Amen to this

Originally posted by Dillesq:
He's overrated imo. I watched a bunch of big ten games and he doesn't stand out. He got fried by Simmie Cobbs at the beginning of the season. I just don't see him being a #1 but he will be oversrafted because of Marshon Lattimore's success.

I watched a lot of big 10 ball and dude was pretty dam good. I dont recall Cobbs killing him in the game. That was another CB. Not gonna win every match up every week. Lattimore had weeks where he was torched in college.