Take MJ out of the 90's, which star (of Today's game) fits best?

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
LOL. Everything? hmm not sure about that

I recall vividly after the D. Piston's had beaten the Bulls in '90 ECF. MJ thought he should and could will his way to victory. He got his but he took a beating both physically, mentally and emotionally. People started wondering if he could ever lead his teams to a championship. Not the way he conducted up to that moment. ball hogging and not deferring to teammates. always wanting to take the last shot. It was that defeat in '90 when a light bulb went of in MJ's head.

The entire team needed toughening up. During that off-season he enlisted Pip to get in the gym and put on muscle mass. no more purely relying on athleticism to just get by. The minute MJ got Scottie and Horace to buy into his regimen MJ knew the rest of the team would follow. Even got the team to start eating healthy. That whole summer all they did was practice on everything. and the rest is well as they say history. during the ECF of '91 D. Pistons were shell shocked at how well MJ was playing while having the entire team involved. thus leading to Isaiah and the bad boys to walk off the court without shaking hands. MJ returned that favor by freezing IT out of the Olympics of '92. Now that's just a glimpse at what MJ did as the leader of the squad to get his teammates better.

Am not sure if Kobe did things like that to improve his surroundings. I could be wrong and perhaps one of the Laker fans can direct me to where Kobe perhaps did do such things. but then if he did it surely never materialized on the court.

HOF player. no doubt. but that's where his greatness ends.

Man you shed some light on some stuff I had forgotten. And I challenge 4ML to really look at the 90s Bulls team and tell me where there is a more fit team in todays game. Those guys were ripped mean and intense both on defense and offense! And they were grown men! Part of the reason MIA beat OKC in 2012 was because it was men vs boys but last year it was men vs men but MIA won because they had enough home grown talent and experience to edge out all the foreign bodies SAS had compiled about their roster! That crap where they laid off Wade and LBJ and dared them to shoot would have led to a 5-1 defeat at the hands of CHI with MJ! Wade and LBJ didn't take their shots until late in the series and hit just enough of them to eke out a chip and Wade is my favorite player this generation but I know kobe and LBJ are better than him and he is no match for MJ! I do think Wade was the bomb the season after the Olympics though and in 2005 and 2006!

Originally posted by 4ML:
He lost in the playoffs just like everyone else. Had he never lost in the playoffs - then your argument is legit. He also lost in the playoffs in 94-95. I'm not sure why his fans forget that

what you're fogetting is that MJ lost in playoffs way before that. And he sure did lose to Penny, Shaq, D. Scott and the rest of Orlando Magic that year you're oh so kind to point out.

was it rust from being on a hiatus for two years. perhaps. but he lost. big deal. but when it mattered most the man simply refused to lose. and there wasn't any bickering going on during the years he lost. it was simply we're good enough to beat such teams as Celtics, Piston, Magic and whomever else he lost to in the playoffs. it was always we need to get together and work on our game to get better.

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
LOL. Everything? hmm not sure about that

I recall vividly after the D. Piston's had beaten the Bulls in '90 ECF. MJ thought he should and could will his way to victory. He got his but he took a beating both physically, mentally and emotionally. People started wondering if he could ever lead his teams to a championship. Not the way he conducted up to that moment. ball hogging and not deferring to teammates. always wanting to take the last shot. It was that defeat in '90 when a light bulb went of in MJ's head.

The entire team needed toughening up. During that off-season he enlisted Pip to get in the gym and put on muscle mass. no more purely relying on athleticism to just get by. The minute MJ got Scottie and Horace to buy into his regimen MJ knew the rest of the team would follow. Even got the team to start eating healthy. That whole summer all they did was practice on everything. and the rest is well as they say history. during the ECF of '91 D. Pistons were shell shocked at how well MJ was playing while having the entire team involved. thus leading to Isaiah and the bad boys to walk off the court without shaking hands. MJ returned that favor by freezing IT out of the Olympics of '92. Now that's just a glimpse at what MJ did as the leader of the squad to get his teammates better.

Am not sure if Kobe did things like that to improve his surroundings. I could be wrong and perhaps one of the Laker fans can direct me to where Kobe perhaps did do such things. but then if he did it surely never materialized on the court.

HOF player. no doubt. but that's where his greatness ends.

It's well known fact that Kobe stood up Shaq.

...and when I said everything - I was talking about on the basketball floor. Obviously, Kobe didn't do everything Jordan did off the court because Jordan wasn't careless with the b***hes he was banging.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Man you can't offend me with Skip Bayless talk because Skip ain't lived the life I've lived. He doesn't know what he is talking about because he hasn't been around roundball like I have. I know my experience and I know what I know whether you want to believe it or not! I ain't offended because I refrain from judging you guys because I don't know what you've seen but I know what I have and I am fully secure within myself and I know I don't know everything but I know what I know!

I believe you. I have no reason not to. I just disagree with you on your opinion about Jordan and the 90s. The talent pool is a lot bigger today than it ever was and therefore there is more talent in the NBA from around the World. The teams are deeper, the teams are smarter, and coaches use advanced metrics to specifically target weaknesses of players. Players from previous generations never went through that. IMO - the game is only going to get better 10 years from now.

Not to mention - franchise players have a LOT more responsibilities off the court than they ever did and still perform at their peak.

I won't argue the talent today. I do question how tough some of these guys are compared to then and whether they can play the way the game was then. I won't argue the science today compared to then or the international talent pool but I always say if we give A the science medicine and film of B can he perform as good as B or vice versa. When I look at MJ I can clearly see the polish, the stamina, the explosiveness, the 4.3 speed, the 48" vertical, the power, the college fundamentals and the competitiveness. There is no guard in the history of the game I want other than Magic Johnson as my draft pick! MJ was a stud then and he would be a stud now even more so with these rules. Penny Hardaway would clown now as well

Originally posted by 4ML:
It's well known fact that Kobe stood up Shaq.

...and when I said everything - I was talking about on the basketball floor. Obviously, Kobe didn't do everything Jordan did off the court because Jordan wasn't careless with the b***hes he was banging.

Off the court MJ didn't have the internet to deal with either. Kobe was a loner early on so he didn't know how the game was played off the court over here where as if he weren't a loner Shaq could have taught him how to play these h***! I think Kobe has grown from that time to where he is now

Kobe tried to push Shaq but he was Italian and Ivy League so he didn't know how to reach these dudes early on. I think he grew and the 2008 Olympics helped him grow towards the American players. Kobe formed bonds with LBJ Wade and Melo during that summer

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
what you're fogetting is that MJ lost in playoffs way before that. And he sure did lose to Penny, Shaq, D. Scott and the rest of Orlando Magic that year you're oh so kind to point out.

was it rust from being on a hiatus for two years. perhaps. but he lost. big deal. but when it mattered most the man simply refused to lose. and there wasn't any bickering going on during the years he lost. it was simply we're good enough to beat such teams as Celtics, Piston, Magic and whomever else he lost to in the playoffs. it was always we need to get together and work on our game to get better.

I'm not forgetting that Jordan lost plenty of times before. Like I said, he couldn't get out of 1st round without Pippen. Without Jordan, Bulls lost only 2 more games and took the mighty NYK to 7 games in the 2nd round. Had the refs not f**k up - Bulls would have won that game 7...just like Pacers would have won game 7 in 1998.

I don't understand the "mattered most" point. It only matters most when you reach the Finals? It doesn't matter most when you've never been out of the 1st round of the playoffs?

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by 4ML:
I wonder how much street ball Gregg Popovich has played.

I don't know but I do know that his Spurs champions would have no chance vs 90s Bulls or Rockets. Hakeem would cream Tim Duncan

Totally missed my point. Pop has always over-achieved with his teams. He is one of the greatest coaches of all time, if not the greatest and he didn't play street-ball basketball. You don't need to be a player - to analyze the game or coach the game.

As far as Hakeem creaming Tim Duncan - I highly doubt that. Both were great players and it would be fun to see them go at each other. I'm sure some days Hakeem would have gotten the better of Duncan and some days Duncan have Hakeem's number.

How close did you watch Hakeem? Dream had more speed power stamina and skill than Tim Duncan. He was both the offensive and defensive fulcrum for his club. Tim Duncan would have looked like a roaming klutz matched up vs Hakeem. Tim Duncan would have been owned by Dream, Ewing and Shaq and he was owned by Shaq now that I am thinking about it when Shaq was in shape. Dream would have crushed TD. Swimming is good for stamina but soccer is chief! Dream didn't have to sit out half the season to rest for the playoffs! Duncan had played the 94 NYK he would have gotten punked!

not only Hakeem play soccer while growing up but field hockey and volleyball. the man was a monster growing up in Lagos Nigeria.

Originally posted by 4ML:
I'm not forgetting that Jordan lost plenty of times before. Like I said, he couldn't get out of 1st round without Pippen. Without Jordan, Bulls lost only 2 more games and took the mighty NYK to 7 games in the 2nd round. Had the refs not f**k up - Bulls would have won that game 7...just like Pacers would have won game 7 in 1998.

I don't understand the "mattered most" point. It only matters most when you reach the Finals? It doesn't matter most when you've never been out of the 1st round of the playoffs?

But without MJ, Hakeem and the Rockets would have killed the Bulls in 94! The best team always wins a 7 game series! I didn't like the call on Pip either on that foul to Hubert Brown. The game was over but the series was much more of a struggle with MJ not there. They had Kukoc taking game winners that series!

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
not only Hakeem play soccer while growing up but field hockey and volleyball. the man was a monster growing up in Lagos Nigeria.

This! Tim Duncan would get clowned worse than Dream clowned David Robinson and Ewing put together in those playoff series!

lol at JRG.

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
I won't argue the talent today. I do question how tough some of these guys are compared to then and whether they can play the way the game was then. I won't argue the science today compared to then or the international talent pool but I always say if we give A the science medicine and film of B can he perform as good as B or vice versa. When I look at MJ I can clearly see the polish, the stamina, the explosiveness, the 4.3 speed, the 48" vertical, the power, the college fundamentals and the competitiveness. There is no guard in the history of the game I want other than Magic Johnson as my draft pick! MJ was a stud then and he would be a stud now even more so with these rules. Penny Hardaway would clown now as well

Players adapt to the era they're playing in. They don't make the rules. I think it's kind of silly to question their toughness.

See...I can make silly arguments too:

How come defenders hardly ever used to take charges? Taking a charge is definitely more physically demanding than just hacking. Must be fukin' pussies playing in the earlier eras - scared to take a knee in the balls or the gut.

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
lol at JRG.

?

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
not only Hakeem play soccer while growing up but field hockey and volleyball. the man was a monster growing up in Lagos Nigeria.

This! Tim Duncan would get clowned worse than Dream clowned David Robinson and Ewing put together in those playoff series!

I love TD's game and have the utmost respect for one of the most genuine men in the leagues and society. he is the greatest PF to ever play the game. with that said Hakeem would have ran laps around TD and defecated all over him. If big men like D Robinson, P chEwing, Charles Barkley, D Mutombo, C Malone, R. Seikaly, A Mourning, and all those others couldn't stop Hakeem then what say you that TD could. slow HO down a bit. certainly but out match him. in only the dreams of those whom daydream.

Originally posted by jrg:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:
lol at JRG.

?

made me chuckle as you come through breaking up the monotony of this MJ vs Kobe beef.