2013 NBA Finals thread: San Antonio Spurs vs. Miami Heat

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
They've been outscored by the Spurs with him on the court in 4 of the 6 games. I don't see how this is an advanced metric, it's the score.

Regarding Wade, no, it's not a hex. It's that simple dribble penetration opportunities that are available in the regular season are not available to the same degree in the playoffs. Miami has the regular season benefit of being an unusual team in that their offense is centered around a single player. Come playoff time, that can be prepared for in a way that you can't do in the regular season. LeBron's teams have almost always been significantly better in the regular season than the postseason, even when accounting for the increased level of competition. Wade's not getting the same quality of looks he got in the regular season.

Bosh played plenty of center in Toronto. It certainly wasn't Andrea Bargnani. His sweet spot was in the high post, facing up on guys that were bigger than him. He could knock down that jumper if they played off of him, and he could drive by them if they played up on him. How often do you see Bosh get a high post touch these days?

I'm not really sure if you are actually looking at +/- and using that to imply that the Heat are better without Lebron...I hope not, because that's just silly.

Really this talk of Lebron diminishing Wade (which I totally disagree with ) and Bosh (partly disagree with) is such a moot point because the Heat have gone to 3 straight finals since Lebron got there.

Originally posted by Sims84:
Lebron averages over 31 PPG in elimination games ...With his back against the wall and everything on the line, he has performed better than anyone in the history of the NBA yet he isn't clutch.... lol yeah ok clutch is not always the last couple of minutes or the last shot, look at the entire picture and for the record, in game winning shot attempts since 2000, Kobe is shooting 30% with Lebron shooting 31% albeit Kobe takes WAAAAAYY more shot attempts (101 to Lebron's 68 I believe) yet Kobe is considered an assassin and Lebron is considered a choke artist? haters gonna hate

The mistake is equating a player's value so completely with PPG and FG%. For the life of me, I don't understand why people are so prone to doing this. LeBron shot the ball 26 times tonight, along with 12 FTs, which is a pretty high amount. This game probably had around 220 possessions in it, meaning that LeBron's high volume shooting still only amounted to about 15% of his possessions on the court, but for some strange reason we treat that 15% like it's 99%.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
No, it really doesn't. It's this weird statistic that people obsess over. The Lakers as a team shot 32.5% in that game. But they played tremendous defense, destroyed Boston on the boards, and got to the line far more than the Celtics did, all of which were areas that Kobe contributed to in large quantities.

"I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, [Boston] was badly outrebounded, and he didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game." - Tom Thibodeau, who was Boston's Assistant Coach at the time.

Yea...that's a fine statement. But, saying Kobe played poorly because he shot 0-3 in the last 4 minutes and they still won the game because Ron Artest made the game winning 3pt shot seems pretty accurate too.

Why on Earth are people debating Kobe vs. Lebron here? Kobe is way more skilled offensively, but Lebron is just a better all-around player. I'm a huge Kobe fan and like him a lot more than Lebron, but ehhh, you'd have to be insane to pick the Kobester over Lebron. Not to mention, Kobe is a pretty selfish player and that can get in the way.

Look at that team in Cleveland that Lebron took to the finals, I don't know any other star that could do that...let's at least be a little bit realistic here. Lebron is an entirely different player, he just doesn't have the consistent jumper to help him in the final possessions.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Leathaface:
Right, 25% shooting doesn't matter in G7 of the finals. Point is, he was totally bailed out by lesser players in that game.

No, it really doesn't. It's this weird statistic that people obsess over. The Lakers as a team shot 32.5% in that game. But they played tremendous defense, destroyed Boston on the boards, and got to the line far more than the Celtics did, all of which were areas that Kobe contributed to in large quantities.

"I thought in Game 7 [of the 2010 NBA Finals], what gets lost on people, [Boston] was badly outrebounded, and he didn't have a particularly good shooting night, but he had a great rebounding night and that probably was the difference of the game." - Tom Thibodeau, who was Boston's Assistant Coach at the time.

If you wanna play that game then Lebron should NEVER be criticized for his offensive numbers (which of course is all that people look at) because he's clearly the best defender on the court at all times. He's also a tremendous rebounder and sets up quite a few of his teammates.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Yea...that's a fine statement. But, saying Kobe played poorly because he shot 0-3 in the last 4 minutes and they still won the game because Ron Artest made the game winning 3pt shot seems pretty accurate too.

You sir don't understand GREATNESS!!!

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Kobe in game 7...last 4 minutes:

Missed a 19 footer
Missed a FT
MIssed a 3pt shot
Made 2 FTs after game was over

Kobe in game 7...last quarter with team down by 2

1 for 3 from the field
6 of 7 from the FT line
Made 2 FTs after game was over
1 Turnover


lol

Making two free throws when your team is up by 3 with 25 seconds left is "after the game was over?" Does someone wanna tell that to Kawhi Leonard? (Boston immediately hit a 3 pointer to cut it to 2 after that)

And when I see 1-3 FG and 6-7 FT with 1 turnover, I see 8 points on 7 possessions, which is a fantastic yield. He also created 6 FT attempts for Gasol in that 4th quarter, as well as making the post entry pass to Pau, which gave him an excellent look and a made basket. (but no assist)

Why does EVERY f**kING THREAD have to be LeBron/Bryant/Jordan

f**k.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
If you wanna play that game then Lebron should NEVER be criticized for his offensive numbers (which of course is all that people look at) because he's clearly the best defender on the court at all times. He's also a tremendous rebounder and sets up quite a few of his teammates.

I don't criticize him for his offensive numbers, I criticize him for the looks that he gives his team while being the sun that they orbit around.

He's not the best defender on the court at all times. All in all, he's an excellent defender, but he's been fairly average in this series. He's repeatedly been the culprit in a lot of Danny Green's open looks due to slow/incorrect rotations. He also got back cut quite a bit early in the series.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Sims84:
Lebron averages over 31 PPG in elimination games ...With his back against the wall and everything on the line, he has performed better than anyone in the history of the NBA yet he isn't clutch.... lol yeah ok clutch is not always the last couple of minutes or the last shot, look at the entire picture and for the record, in game winning shot attempts since 2000, Kobe is shooting 30% with Lebron shooting 31% albeit Kobe takes WAAAAAYY more shot attempts (101 to Lebron's 68 I believe) yet Kobe is considered an assassin and Lebron is considered a choke artist? haters gonna hate

The mistake is equating a player's value so completely with PPG and FG%. For the life of me, I don't understand why people are so prone to doing this. LeBron shot the ball 26 times tonight, along with 12 FTs, which is a pretty high amount. This game probably had around 220 possessions in it, meaning that LeBron's high volume shooting still only amounted to about 15% of his possessions on the court, but for some strange reason we treat that 15% like it's 99%.

Lebron shoots less than most of the top scorers which is why he is so good since he can average enough points to be in the top 5 every year, on less attempts (48% in the playoffs which is tops among "scorers" and 56% in the regular season, again, tops amongst "scorers"). He is FAR more efficient than Kobe, Anthony, and Durant which are arguabley the best scorers in the game at the moment but if he took as many shots as them, he would probably average 30 a game for the year. lets be real...

Hell, even Russell Westbrook puts up more shot attempts than Lebron

Originally posted by jrg:
Why does EVERY f**kING THREAD have to be LeBron/Bryant/Jordan

f**k.

Dunno. I don't bring it up.

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Sims84:
Lebron averages over 31 PPG in elimination games ...With his back against the wall and everything on the line, he has performed better than anyone in the history of the NBA yet he isn't clutch.... lol yeah ok clutch is not always the last couple of minutes or the last shot, look at the entire picture and for the record, in game winning shot attempts since 2000, Kobe is shooting 30% with Lebron shooting 31% albeit Kobe takes WAAAAAYY more shot attempts (101 to Lebron's 68 I believe) yet Kobe is considered an assassin and Lebron is considered a choke artist? haters gonna hate

The mistake is equating a player's value so completely with PPG and FG%. For the life of me, I don't understand why people are so prone to doing this. LeBron shot the ball 26 times tonight, along with 12 FTs, which is a pretty high amount. This game probably had around 220 possessions in it, meaning that LeBron's high volume shooting still only amounted to about 15% of his possessions on the court, but for some strange reason we treat that 15% like it's 99%.

Lebron shoots less than most of the top scorers which is why he is so good since he can average enough points to be in the top 5 every year, on less attempts (48% in the playoffs which is tops among "scorers" and 56% in the regular season, again, tops amongst "scorers"). He is FAR more efficient than Kobe, Anthony, and Durant which are arguable the best scorers in the game at the moment but if he took as many shots as them, he would probably average 30 a game for the year. lets be real

Did you even read my post?

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Yea...that's a fine statement. But, saying Kobe played poorly because he shot 0-3 in the last 4 minutes and they still won the game because Ron Artest made the game winning 3pt shot seems pretty accurate too.

You guys have the strangest memory.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
I'm not really sure if you are actually looking at +/- and using that to imply that the Heat are better without Lebron...I hope not, because that's just silly.

Really this talk of Lebron diminishing Wade (which I totally disagree with ) and Bosh (partly disagree with) is such a moot point because the Heat have gone to 3 straight finals since Lebron got there.

Of course Miami's made three consecutive Finals. They have an absurd amount of talent and they play in a conference that hasn't had a particularly good #2 team in those 3 years.

Not saying that the Heat are better without LeBron. But they haven't been better with him in this series either. They've performed similarly with him on the court or without him on the court.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Kobe in game 7...last 4 minutes:

Missed a 19 footer
Missed a FT
MIssed a 3pt shot
Made 2 FTs after game was over

Kobe in game 7...last quarter with team down by 2

1 for 3 from the field
6 of 7 from the FT line
Made 2 FTs after game was over
1 Turnover


lol

Making two free throws when your team is up by 3 with 25 seconds left is "after the game was over?" Does someone wanna tell that to Kawhi Leonard? (Boston immediately hit a 3 pointer to cut it to 2 after that)

And when I see 1-3 FG and 6-7 FT with 1 turnover, I see 8 points on 7 possessions, which is a fantastic yield. He also created 6 FT attempts for Gasol in that 4th quarter, as well as making the post entry pass to Pau, which gave him an excellent look and a made basket. (but no assist)

Leonard choked. Leonard had a lot more pressure on him...he needed to make both to make it a 2 possession game.

That was a terrible game 7 by Kobe...and that's ok. Players have bad games. If Lebron went 1-3 in the 4th quarter, people would be screaming that he's scared of the big moments. I just find that debate stupid. Great players have bad games...bad series...and sometimes even bad playoffs. You measure greatness by how they respond, and Lebron responded today.