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2012-2013 NBA Playoffs Discussion Thread

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
...and that's too few touches in the post for Dwight and Howard. If Kobe was playing on the perimeter - that can be excused...but he's out and by far the best two players on the court are Gasol and Dwight. I'm not even putting the full blame on the players, it's the offense. Even when they get the ball in the post, the spacing is so poor...it's easy to double or get help.

Also, when Dwight and Gasol haven't been gettin' enough quality touches in the post all year, it's hard to ask them to be efficient all of a sudden. I thought the ball was moving well at times in the first half, but once Lakers got behind...guys started chucking ball from outside.

Dwight and Gasol have been much better in the post in previous years. This offense is set up for perimeter players, and hurts the Centers and PFs who are primarily paint players. I feel that's one of the reasons why Gasol and Dwight don't demand the ball OR are as aggressive with it...as they once did, because they just don't feel comfortable in this offense.









I lol'd at Dwight and Howard

[ Edited by marshniners24 on Apr 21, 2013 at 9:35 PM ]
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Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
...and that's too few touches in the post for Dwight and Howard. If Kobe was playing on the perimeter - that can be excused...but he's out and by far the best two players on the court are Gasol and Dwight. I'm not even putting the full blame on the players, it's the offense. Even when they get the ball in the post, the spacing is so poor...it's easy to double or get help.

Also, when Dwight and Gasol haven't been gettin' enough quality touches in the post all year, it's hard to ask them to be efficient all of a sudden. I thought the ball was moving well at times in the first half, but once Lakers got behind...guys started chucking ball from outside.

Dwight and Gasol have been much better in the post in previous years. This offense is set up for perimeter players, and hurts the Centers and PFs who are primarily paint players. I feel that's one of the reasons why Gasol and Dwight don't demand the ball OR are as aggressive with it...as they once did, because they just don't feel comfortable in this offense.

Maybe Dwight is not a very skilled post player. Lakers post offense needs to run through Gasol. Dwight needs to heavily focus on rebounds, blocks, and cleanup points.

He seemed more skilled in Orlando last couple years than he does now...and he is just entering his prime.
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Originally posted by marshniners24:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
...and that's too few touches in the post for Dwight and Howard. If Kobe was playing on the perimeter - that can be excused...but he's out and by far the best two players on the court are Gasol and Dwight. I'm not even putting the full blame on the players, it's the offense. Even when they get the ball in the post, the spacing is so poor...it's easy to double or get help.

Also, when Dwight and Gasol haven't been gettin' enough quality touches in the post all year, it's hard to ask them to be efficient all of a sudden. I thought the ball was moving well at times in the first half, but once Lakers got behind...guys started chucking ball from outside.

Dwight and Gasol have been much better in the post in previous years. This offense is set up for perimeter players, and hurts the Centers and PFs who are primarily paint players. I feel that's one of the reasons why Gasol and Dwight don't demand the ball OR are as aggressive with it...as they once did, because they just don't feel comfortable in this offense.









I lol'd at Dwight and Howard


lol...it's hot here today, it's frying my brain
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
...and that's too few touches in the post for Dwight and Howard. If Kobe was playing on the perimeter - that can be excused...but he's out and by far the best two players on the court are Gasol and Dwight. I'm not even putting the full blame on the players, it's the offense. Even when they get the ball in the post, the spacing is so poor...it's easy to double or get help.

Also, when Dwight and Gasol haven't been gettin' enough quality touches in the post all year, it's hard to ask them to be efficient all of a sudden. I thought the ball was moving well at times in the first half, but once Lakers got behind...guys started chucking ball from outside.

Dwight and Gasol have been much better in the post in previous years. This offense is set up for perimeter players, and hurts the Centers and PFs who are primarily paint players. I feel that's one of the reasons why Gasol and Dwight don't demand the ball OR are as aggressive with it...as they once did, because they just don't feel comfortable in this offense.

4ML...there is so much objective evidence to dispute this that it's not even funny. The 2nd least efficient play for the Lakers this year was the post up. We don't score when Pau & Dwight get post touches. This is over the course of thousands of possessions. It's as simple as that. Pau was a stud in the post in the championship years, but hasn't been in quite some time. Dwight was no more efficient in the post in previous years than he was this year.

Look at Memphis...two of the best post up players in the league with Randolph & Gasol, and an offense that's built around them. Only team in the league that posts up more than the Lakers do. Bottom 10 offense in the league,

Look at San Antonio...one of the best post players in NBA history who has had a tremendous season. They post up half as often as the Lakers do. The Spurs have cut back significantly on their post ups over the years. They're very efficient with it, and that's because they rarely do it. It's not the offense. The Laker's spacing is excellent. The rest of the league has copied D'Antoni's 4-out, 1-in sets with an emphasis on the deep corners because of it. Posting up...both the Lakers and leaguewide...is one of the most inefficient plays in the sport in 2013. "Pound the post" is one of those dogmas that are simply antiquated.

Too few post touches for Pau & Dwight? We generated 0.54 PPP out of post possessions. That's AWFUL. Over the course of 48 minute game, that's about 60 points. Our non-post plays generated far more points. Steve Nash ran 16 pick & rolls today, looked rusty as hell, missed a ton of open shots (as did Pau off of the PnR), and he STILL generated 16 points off of it. 1 point per possession, which is almost twice what the post touches got. But we should post them up more?!?
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Coach Vino's tweets during the game:

Gotta get to the block. See wat spurs r gonna do with pau and d12


What I would say if I was there right now? "Pau get ur ass on the block and don't move till u get it"

Post. Post. Post.

Gotta milk pau in the post right now and d12. Will get good looks from it
The playoffs are looking boring as hell it sucks so much that all the star players are bunched up in a couple of teams.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Coach Vino's tweets during the game:

Gotta get to the block. See wat spurs r gonna do with pau and d12


What I would say if I was there right now? "Pau get ur ass on the block and don't move till u get it"

Post. Post. Post.

Gotta milk pau in the post right now and d12. Will get good looks from it

Yep. And when Coach Vino is actually playing it's all high pick & roll, Horns action (bigs on both elbows), and lots of points. Player Vino doesn't pound the ball into the post, post, post. These are longstanding dogmas that don't reflect reality.

Again...21 points generated in 39 post possessions today. Kobe got hurt, the bigs are getting all the post touches that they want, and the Lakers can't score. And that's despite having Pau Gasol & Dwight Howard. It doesn't work.
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Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Coach Vino's tweets during the game:

Gotta get to the block. See wat spurs r gonna do with pau and d12


What I would say if I was there right now? "Pau get ur ass on the block and don't move till u get it"

Post. Post. Post.

Gotta milk pau in the post right now and d12. Will get good looks from it

Yep. And when Coach Vino is actually playing it's all high pick & roll, Horns action (bigs on both elbows), and lots of points. Player Vino doesn't pound the ball into the post, post, post. These are longstanding dogmas that don't reflect reality.

Again...21 points generated in 39 post possessions today. Kobe got hurt, the bigs are getting all the post touches that they want, and the Lakers can't score. And that's despite having Pau Gasol & Dwight Howard. It doesn't work.

lol that's true
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
...and that's too few touches in the post for Dwight and Howard. If Kobe was playing on the perimeter - that can be excused...but he's out and by far the best two players on the court are Gasol and Dwight. I'm not even putting the full blame on the players, it's the offense. Even when they get the ball in the post, the spacing is so poor...it's easy to double or get help.

Also, when Dwight and Gasol haven't been gettin' enough quality touches in the post all year, it's hard to ask them to be efficient all of a sudden. I thought the ball was moving well at times in the first half, but once Lakers got behind...guys started chucking ball from outside.

Dwight and Gasol have been much better in the post in previous years. This offense is set up for perimeter players, and hurts the Centers and PFs who are primarily paint players. I feel that's one of the reasons why Gasol and Dwight don't demand the ball OR are as aggressive with it...as they once did, because they just don't feel comfortable in this offense.

4ML...there is so much objective evidence to dispute this that it's not even funny. The 2nd least efficient play for the Lakers this year was the post up. We don't score when Pau & Dwight get post touches. This is over the course of thousands of possessions. It's as simple as that. Pau was a stud in the post in the championship years, but hasn't been in quite some time. Dwight was no more efficient in the post in previous years than he was this year.

Look at Memphis...two of the best post up players in the league with Randolph & Gasol, and an offense that's built around them. Only team in the league that posts up more than the Lakers do. Bottom 10 offense in the league,

Look at San Antonio...one of the best post players in NBA history who has had a tremendous season. They post up half as often as the Lakers do. The Spurs have cut back significantly on their post ups over the years. They're very efficient with it, and that's because they rarely do it. It's not the offense. The Laker's spacing is excellent. The rest of the league has copied D'Antoni's 4-out, 1-in sets with an emphasis on the deep corners because of it. Posting up...both the Lakers and leaguewide...is one of the most inefficient plays in the sport in 2013. "Pound the post" is one of those dogmas that are simply antiquated.

Too few post touches for Pau & Dwight? We generated 0.54 PPP out of post possessions. That's AWFUL. Over the course of 48 minute game, that's about 60 points. Our non-post plays generated far more points. Steve Nash ran 16 pick & rolls today, looked rusty as hell, missed a ton of open shots (as did Pau off of the PnR), and he STILL generated 16 points off of it. 1 point per possession, which is almost twice what the post touches got. But we should post them up more?!?

So why the hell don't they run more pick and rolls or pick and pops with Gasol? Talent not being used right at all. Nash is most comfortable with the high post screen. You have Gasol run that and be sort of a threat at hitting the jumper with Howard sneaking in on the baseline waiting for cleanup duty or a nice pass from Gasol high at the elbow or from a probing Nash. This would also force opponents to pick their poison with focusing on Howard or giving up the corner three.

I have a feeling SA will see it a lot more during this series and wins will be a little more difficult...maybe.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I re-watched the game and charted the every half court, offensive possession. Any transition, semi-transition, in bound play, or scramble play is not included. They were charted by the event that led to the shot, and in two ways...low post touches and perimeter events (drives, pick & rolls, isos, etc.), along with the result.

Therefore, if Howard got a low post touch and he kicked it out to MWP and MWP made a 3 (this happened) this is credited to the "low post touch" category. If Nash & Gasol run a pick and roll and Nash lobs it to Howard for a dunk, that's credited as a "perimeter" event. Here were the results. If anyone has any question about the methodology, I'm happy to answer it.

[b]Overall Low Post Plays[/b]

Number of Touches......35
Post Entry Turnovers.....4
Points Generated.........21
Points Per Possession...0.54

[b]Overall Perimeter Plays[/b]

Number of Touches........52
Points Generated...........44
Points Per Possession...0.85

[b]Dwight Howard[/b]

Amount of Touches…20 (17 eligible for PPP)
PPP…………………………0.53

[b]Pau Gasol[/b]

Amount of Touches…..9 (8 eligible for PPP)
PPP…………………………0.75

[b]MWP[/b]

Amount of Touches…..3 (3 eligible for PPP)
PPP………………………….1.33

[b]Antawn Jamison[/b]

Amount of Touches…..3 (3 eligible for PPP)
PPP………………………….0.67




[b]Game Log[/b]

1st Quarter

1) Nash/Howard PnR (Nash makes 2 point jumper) +2
2) Post entry (turnover) 0
1) Nash/ Gasol Pnr (Nash misses 2 point jumper) 0
2) Howard post touch (MWP misses 2 point jumper)
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Gasol misses 2 point jumper) 0
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol misses 2 point jumper) 0
2) Howard post touch (Howard misses jump hook) 0
2) Howard post touch (Howard misses jumper) 0
3) In bound play (Gasol makes 2 point jumper) +2
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Nash makes layup) +2
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Nash misses 2 point jumper) +0
1) Blake drive (Blake turnover) 0
1) Blake drive (Howard makes 2 point jumper) +2
1) MWP drive (Gasol makes 2 point jumper) +2
*2) Howard post touch (Howard gets fouled) N/A
1) Blake/Jamison PnR (Blake turnover)
2) Howard post touch (Howard turnover)
2) Howard post touch (Howard misses jump hook)
1) Blake/Jamison PnR (Blake misses 2 point jumper)
1) Meeks/Jamison PnR (Meeks misses 3 pointer)
1) Meeks drive (Gasol makes layup) +2
1) Blake/Gasol PnR (Gasol misses 2 point jumper)
1) Nash Iso (Nash misses jumper)
2) Jamison post touch (Jamison makes ½ FTs) +1
2) Gasol post touch (Jamison makes layup) +2

2nd Quarter

2) Jamison post touch (Jamison makes 1/2 FTs) +1
2) Jamison post touch (Jamison turnover)
2) Howard post touch (Howard turnover)
1) Nash drive (Meeks missed 3)
1) MWP iso (Meeks makes layup) +2
*2) Howard post touch (Howard draws foul) N/A
2) Howard post touch (Howard makes layup) +2
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol misses jumper)
1) Nash drive (Nash layup) +2
1) Nash/Howard PnR (Gasol misses jumper)
1) Nash/Howard/Gasol PnR (Nash misses 2 point jumper)
2) MWP post touch (Howard makes layup)
1) Gasol/Howard PnR (Gasol misses 2 point jumper)
1) Gasol iso (Howard dunk) +2
2) MWP post entry (MWP turnover)
1) Blake/Howard PnR (Blake makes runner in lane) +2
2) Howard post touch (Howard layup) +2
2) Howard post touch (Howard turnover)
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol turnover)
2) Howard post touch (24 second violation)

3rd Quarter

1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Nash misses 2 point shot)
2) Howard post touch (Howard turnover)
1) Nash drive (Nash turnover)
1) Gasol/Howard PnR (Gasol misses 2 point shot)
1) Blake/Gasol PnR (Blake misses 3 point shot)
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Nash makes 2 point jumper) +2
2) Howard post touch (Nash misses 3 point shot)
2) MWP post touch (MWP layup) +2
2) MWP post touch (MWP misses jumper)
1) Blake drive (Nash makes 3 pointer) +3
2) Howard post touch (MWP makes 3 pointer) +3
1) Blake drive (Blake makes 2 point jumper) +2
*2) Howard post touch (Howard draws foul)
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol makes jumper in lane) +2
1) Blake drive (Blake misses 2 point jumper)
2) Post entry (Meeks turnover)
2) Howard post touch (Howard turnover)
1) Blake/Howard PnR (Blake makes 2 point jumper) +2
1) Blake/Howard PnR (Jamison misses 3 pointer)
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol makes ½ FTs) +1
1) Blake iso (Jamison makes 2/2 FTs) +2
1) Blake/Gasol PnR (Blake misses runner)
1) Meeks Iso (Meeks makes 2/2 FTs) +2
1) Blake/Gasol PnR (Blake misses layup)

4th quarter

2) Howard post touch (Howard makes jump hook) +2
2) Post entry (Nash turnover)
1) Gasol iso (Gasol makes layup) +2
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Gasol makes 2 point jumper) +2
*2) Gasol post touch (MWP draws foul)
1) Nash/Howard PnR (Nash misses 2 point jumper)
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Howard misses layup)
2) Howard post touch (MWP misses 3 pointer)
1) Nash drives (Nash makes 2/2 FTs) +2
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol makes ½ FTs) +1
2) Gasol post touch (Gasol misses jump hook)
1) Gasol iso (Jamison misses 2 point jumper)
1) Gasol iso (Gasol misses 2 point jumper)
1) Nash/Howard PnR (Howard makes layup) +2
2) Howard post touch (Howard makes 0/2 FTs)
1) Nash/Howard PnR (Nash makes layup) +2
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Nash makes 2/2 FTs) +2
1) Nash/Gasol PnR (Gasol turnover)
2) Howard post touch (Howard makes ½ FTs) +1
3) Hack-a-Howard (Howard makes ½ FTs) +1
1) MWP iso (MWP misses 3 pointer)
1) Blake iso (Blake misses 2 point jumper)
1) Blake iso (Blake makes 3 pointer) +3
1) Blake/Howard PnR (Blake misses 3 pointer)
1) Blake drive (Gasol makes layup) +2

Yeah, but still.
Besides the GSW/Denver game one and series, this first round is blah.
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http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/4/22/4250380/lakers-vs-spurs-dwight-howard-pau-gasol-play-below-potential-in-game-1

That's kinda what I said about Lakers yesterday.

Both Howard and Gasol committed several offensive fouls jockeying for position, and there were turnovers on entry passes as well. And when they got the ball, double teams came. Howard would have four turnovers, Gasol six. And that wasn't all when it came to bad decisions. Gasol would have Matt Bonner on him as the Spurs played with smaller lineups, and he often opted not to go to work on the three-point specialist not noted for his defense. Both settled for jump shots. Pau missed a lot, and the fact Dwight was taking any in the first place is somewhat mind-boggling


There should be hope here. There were a few moments of brilliance between the pair, with several of Gasol's six assists going to Howard, one a humongous alley-oop. And when Gasol actually squared up to the hoop, he often got buckets. If those flashes of ideal play turn into more than flashes, the Lakers have a shot.



It's not just getting no. of touches - it's about getting quality possessions in the post and lakers didn't do that.
[ Edited by 49ersMyLife on Apr 22, 2013 at 10:23 AM ]
Cant really see the Bulls winning this series without Rose. think the Nets win again tonight and go up 2-0
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Last year - Howard was taking 7 shots a game at the rim and 5.7 shots 3-9 ft. from the basket.
This year - Howard is taking 6.5 shots a game at the rim and ONLY 2.7 shots 3-9 ft. from the basket.


Lakers are no.3 in 3pt attempts and no. 15 in FGs attempted at the rim. Not suggesting they should stop shooting the 3, but - you're the ONLY team who has two all-star caliber 7-footers on the roster. You gotta get those guys closer to the rim.
Way too much analysis going on for a series that might last 5 games. Simply put, the Lakers don't have what it takes to beat the Spurs in a 7 game series. That went out the window when no. 24 went down.