Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
Your right, I don't give a s**t if they played in a bandbox, as long as it was legal. Voters have long held it against those guys anyways when it comes to all star votes, MVP, etc.
Your right, Bonds doesnt give a s**t so why should I?
And I can appreciate how special Bonds was....I didnt need him to be extra-special. And don't believe for a minute he only rubbed the cream on his bi-Ceps. Lol
I admired Bonds as a player and still appreciate his greatness. But the fact is this... Bonds would not be the All Time or Single Season Homerun leader without PEDS. He never came close to 50 during his pre-roid years. Steroids helped put him at the top and this taints his records.
As for Bonds being the All time HR leader if he played his entire career in Colorado... pure speculation obviously and you could say the same for many players. Willie Mays could have 800 if he didnt play in the toughest park ever for a RH hitter to hit homeruns and miss seasons for the military. Imagine him if he played his career there. Bonds wouldnt have come close to Mays in my opinion. But, unless MLB makes every single park the same dimensions and at the same alttitude ( which is of course impossible) there will always be some advantage.
I have said many times that Bonds lost my respect for his use of roids just like Mac, Sosa, Aroid, Braun, Palmeiro, and the other users have. It doesnt mean I dont think he was an amazing player - perhaps the best of his generation ( although Griffey Jr might still get my vote) because I do. I just will never put him on some pedestal like many still do.
Thats my point though John. Baseball isnt fair in any aspect, so when someone uses PED's, why is that advantage viewed differently to a guy who played at Coors? Both gave extreme advantages. If you look purely at numbers and results, not morality, theyre both providing a major boost.
It all comes down to morals here. Bonds lied to the fans. He gave off the impression that he was doing it naturally, and he wasnt. He never did anything illegal by the terms of the MLB law, and the advantages he gained from steroids was just one of MANY different things a baseball player could, and has benefited from.
You're right, Bonds would not have broken Hank Aaron's record of 755 without PED's. But, excluding the morals of the situation, you could just as easily say that Hank Aaron wouldnt have broken Babe Ruth's record of 714 if he wasnt playing his home games in one of the biggest bandboxes of all time. They both received a boost from something other than their own pure abilities. One was lying to the fans about his advantage, and one was playing with that advantage clear as day. At the end of the day, both were advantages.
I dont think of my opinions as putting Bonds on a pedestal, rather trying to balance all the hate against him towards a level he deserves. He doesnt deserve to have his statistics and impact on the game get erased from the history books. If the consensus opinion on him was fair, with people saying "he was one of the best ever, but also a liar, and came across like such a jerk.", I wouldnt feel any need to defend him. I think people take the hate too far because of the way he came across as a person.
Sure the stats can be inflated by where one plays. The players cannot do anything about where they play and how far the fences are. What they can do, however, is play the game without any performance enhancing drugs. That is their choice. Bonds made a choice to cheat. Regardless of his motivation, he mad that decision and now has to live with the ramifications.
I think a fair statement on Barry Bonds..... He was one, if not the best, players of his era whose numbers in the last 90s and 2000s have to be considered inflated due to his decision to take performance enhancing drugs. He lied, he took PEDS and because of it will most likely never be a Hall of Famer
I think if Barry Bonds cheated, then so did Gaylord Perry and every other pitcher who doctored the ball regularly. Since Bonds used unbanned substances, it kind of has to go under the same category as spitballs and stealing signs. Frowned upon, but part of the game, and usually hard to prove. Like I said, if he was the only one using itd be different, but people cant pretend that the majority of the players in that era werent also using.
Bonds will get into the HOF, it will just take a while for the bitterness to fade for the voting parties. The farther away from the era we get, the clearer the big picture will become, and it will be accepted as a unique period of baseball history. Besides, a Hall of Fame without the all-time hits leader, the all time HR leader, and the only 7 time CY winner seems like a joke. Its a museum of baseball history, not baseball writer politics.
LOL at you trying to compare taking PEDS to stealing signs. I wish you would just say that Bonds would not have been nearly as great without PEDS, that they gave him a huge advantage, and that his numbers are totally inflated. No excuses, no comparisions to guys who played in smaller parks or guys who stole signs.
Do you feel the same way about Roger Clemens, Aroid, and Ryan Braun that you do Barry Bonds? Because, they should all be considered the same. They are all players whose performance would never have been the same without performance enhancing drugs. Sure, Bonds was great before roids but his career and numbers will always be tainted.
