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Alabama vs Notre Dame: BCS Championship

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Probably true, but since this hypothetical would only ever be an exhibition game, I'm not sure you could ever get an NFL team to really play up to its fullest potential. So yes, that's an important dynamic.

Fair enough. I thought the spirit of the question was whether or not a team like Alabama could beat an NFL team in a competitive environment, with the implication being that they're SO good that they're practically a pro team themselves.

In an exhibition game that no one cared about...sure, they could beat an NFL squad.

Yep. That is why the College All Stars actually beat NFL teams a few times a few decades ago. The game was a complete exhibition. Make the game really count with the NFL team playing 100% on every play with all their starters and I just dont see Alabama able to win.

I was going to say the same thing. In a KC vs. Alabama game, the KC players wouldn't care and 'Bama would be playing like its their Super Bowl. Could you imagine being on 'Bama and beating an NFL team? What better way to move up the draft board.

And that's definitely a key factor, no doubt about it. All things being equal and each team playing balls out like they would during a regular season game, I don't see an NFL team losing to a college squad....any college squad. Possible, but not likely...I'll concede that. But as I said earlier, I don't think the gap between the absolute worst NFL team and the clear-cut best college team is as huge as some make it out to be.

GoFD, some other key factors to think about:

-Not every rookie has a good first year. So even if Alabama has 10 draft picks on their roster, those 10 might not really make it in the NFL for another 2-3 years. Now down the road after a few seasons, those rookies might be significantly better then thier opposing player on KC, but we are talking about essentially where a rookie is at day 1 of training camp against a seasoned vet. Out of 10 draft picks, I'd say MAYBE 3-4 could outplay their opponent

-NFL schemes are far superior in depth and detail then college game. College QBs have improved significantly, but still at the college level players are not asked to really do much work analyzing a team. Week in and week out, they spend very little time doing film study and breakdown of opponent compared to NFL players. These are skills that take years to develop. What an NFL player reads in a game is 10x more complex and advanced then what a college player reads. College players are usually taught to read 2-3 keys and thats it.

-I think you are over looking the depth problem for a team like Alabama. Think of the very worst 49er team and how awful it was to watch some of those guys play, the guys we just picked up off the street. Those guys are BETTER then some of the players that will star for Alabama who will end up competing for a job in Arena Football.

I think Alabama could win against KC only because of the huge difference in motivation for the teams. KC would feel embarassed, defeated to even be in it and would have a "who gives a f**k attitude." Alabama would be motivated to play the game of thier life because its their dream and there is direct monetary compensation if they do well.
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
Valdosta St could indeed beat Bama, because Billy Jean King beat Riggs in a tennis match. Therefore anything in this world is possible.

Don't forget about the dog that can play basketball
Originally posted by sacniner:
The fringe NFL guys are the best of the best in college though. And, if a college team played an NFL team in a real game there wouldn't be a bunch of "fringe" rookie players playing. It would be NFL starters playing.

In regards to the rarity of NFL size and speed, I disagree. The elite skill sets are rare. And the skills are FAR superior now. The gimmick offense stuff works in the highest levels of college ranks, but has not consistently worked in the NFL. There is a reason for that: the players are too good.

Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard
[ Edited by Dshearn on Jan 8, 2013 at 11:33 AM ]
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:


I think Alabama could win against KC only because of the huge difference in motivation for the teams. KC would feel embarassed, defeated to even be in it and would have a "who gives a f**k attitude." Alabama would be motivated to play the game of thier life because its their dream and there is direct monetary compensation if they do well.

i think KC would have more pride than that.
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard

Jesus, all those guys were on the same college team?
^^ Essentially agree SD, but here are some counters:

- Rookies are impacted greatly by having to learn new schemes, being in a totally new environment with new coaches, new players, new concepts and almost always new techniques, typically a new town and away from all that is familiar. So that plays a big part in their slow transition as well. If you're still on your college squad and playing an NFL team, everything is the same (system, coaches, most teammates, playbook, techniques, overall surroundings, etc.) except the opponent. Not sure how much of a factor that is, but it's still a factor.

- Absolutely agree about the complexity and depth of the schemes/systems and the attention to detail required at the NFL level (and the time allowed to practice/study your profession). IMO, this is the biggest factor in why an NFL team would beat college teams, even more so than sheer size, talent, experience and speed. However, with Saban being an ex-NFL coach, he runs his program (schematically and operationally) as close to an NFL program as any college team in the league. So even though it's clearly not at the level of the NFL, a lot of what Alabama does and how they go about doing it is taken from the NFL. So there is at least an exposure....enough so to make a difference though, probably not.

- Not entirely sure that Alabama has as much of a depth problem as you state. Their depth is young and haven't had their chance to shine on the FBS stage, no doubt about it...but in terms of sheer talent, I'm not so sure our 2004, 2005 street free agents would compare favorably to most of Saban's recruits (and probably many of their walk-ons for that matter). Many of our 2004/2005 street free agents (and those in the NFL in general) come from the Valdosta Sts., Northwest Eastern Southern Central College, Holy Sisters of Grace University and goofy places like that. Some came from bigger schools, but weren't stars by any means. So yes, Bama's depth is young and in that sense, would get crushed by even the worst NFL teams (especially on the line of scrimmage). But in terms of raw talent (skill positions in particular), not exactly sure those old street free agents are "better."
Good example, but obviously those guys were not nearly as good as they were at their peak when they came in the league. But, that very, very rare example is good. Nice research man.
Originally posted by sacniner:
Good example, but obviously those guys were not nearly as good as they were at their peak when they came in the league. But, that very, very rare example is good. Nice research man.


Exactly, they had to grow in to a being a HOF Safties ect ect.

Its no Slam Dunk, and its one historical example. Its NOT every decade or so you can find a team like that

But what if the NEXT team like that trades one of the insane RBs for the next Dan Marino or Peyton Manning.

If you find the right college team, and a really bad NFL team anything is possible

Here is the roster

Bolded had NFL careers over 3 years
[ Edited by Dshearn on Jan 8, 2013 at 12:03 PM ]
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Exactly, they had to grow in to a being a HOF Safties ect ect.

Its no Slam Dunk, and its one historical example. Every Decade or so you can find a team like that

But what if the NEXT team like that trades one of the insane RBs for the next Dan Marino or Peyton Manning.

If you find the right college team, and a really bad NFL team anything is possible


Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
i think KC would have more pride than that.


A Few years back Brett Farve and his Pro Bowl WRs showed up for a flag football game with the attitude that it would be a joke and would destroy the best of the flagfootball world....

They underestimated how bad the other guys wanted it..got embarrissed, flustered... then got serious......and still LOST.

This was a HOF QB with elite WRs that has played together for YEARS.

I bet you money there are slack asses on the Chiefs that would NOT take the game serious.....

It only takes one dumb ass kick returner or CB to loose a ball game you should win with ease.
Originally posted by sacniner:
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard

Jesus, all those guys were on the same college team?

Yes. And they couldn't even beat Ohio State in 2002.

Even that team would have no chance against a bad NFL team.
[ Edited by TheRambler on Jan 8, 2013 at 12:24 PM ]
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by sacniner:
The fringe NFL guys are the best of the best in college though. And, if a college team played an NFL team in a real game there wouldn't be a bunch of "fringe" rookie players playing. It would be NFL starters playing.

In regards to the rarity of NFL size and speed, I disagree. The elite skill sets are rare. And the skills are FAR superior now. The gimmick offense stuff works in the highest levels of college ranks, but has not consistently worked in the NFL. There is a reason for that: the players are too good.

Not really..... fringe NFL guys might be starter level college guys....but the BEST of the BEST in college, normally end up a HIGHLY HYPED NFL prospects..and quite often hit the NFL as productive players. The MAJORITY of the best of the best in college end up as the BEST of the BEST in the NFL.

We are not talking about a college team of FRINGE NFL guys... We are saying its possible a HISTORICALLY GREAT college team could play on the same field as a bad NFL TEAM.

Lets Give an example....... ( apologize for the formatting doing this on a cellphone at lunch)

A Few facts we need to agree on.

You lowered the bar for me, We went from Maybe possibly....to NOT get KILLED by an NFL team.

This has the key componet of horrible Coaching and horrible QB play

Possible does not equal likely

ANY given sunday anything can happen.

I give you Players on the 1997 Miami hurricane Roster VS 2004 Week 3 49ers roster. This team lost 34-0 VS the Seahawks.


the 1997 Miami Team had MANY players that where ABOVE Fringe Level, 36 of them ended up with NFL careers. Including over a half dozzen offensive Linemen.

This team had NFL quality linemen on the Offense ( we are talking Tackles like Vernon Carey and Brynt McKinnie) and Defense.

Miami

QB Ken Dorsey
RBs- Willis McGahee/ Clinton Portis/ Frank Gore

WR Roscoe Parrish/ Andrea Johnson

TE Jerome Shockey/ Kellen Winslow

DEs Jerome McDougal/ Orien Harris

DTs Vince Wilfork J Williams

Lbers Jonathan Vilma-DJ Williams- Roger McIntosh

CBs Phillip Buchannon- Antrel Rolle- Brian Jennings

Safteys Ed Reed Sean Taylor

VS

Week 3 2004 49ers

QB Ken Dorsey

RB Barlow/ Robinson

WR Cedrick Wilison/ Curtis Conway

TE Johnson

DE John engleburger/ Andra Carter

DT Anthony Adams BY ( this was bad bad BY year)

LBers Ulbric/ Smith/ Winborn

CBs Williams/ Spencer

Safteys Parrish Heard

Wait, are you trying to say all those Hurricane players you listed were on their 1997 roster?
Originally posted by DaManRathman:
Wait, are you trying to say all those Hurricane players you listed were on their 1997 roster?



no screwed that up

they where on the 2001 roster
Originally posted by Dshearn:
Originally posted by DaManRathman:
Wait, are you trying to say all those Hurricane players you listed were on their 1997 roster?



no screwed that up

they where on the 2001 roster

Ahh OK, yes.

I knew Gore wasn't there in 1997, he would have only been about 14 years old in 1997 lol.

That 2001 team was insane.
Originally posted by DaManRathman:
Wait, are you trying to say all those Hurricane players you listed were on their 1997 roster?

LOL If he was he is VERY wrong.
Originally posted by TheRambler:
Yes. And they couldn't even beat Ohio State in 2002.

Even that team would have no chance against a bad NFL team.


we would have to assume Miami is healthy.

the great part is doresy can screw up both teams in my example