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2013 San Francisco Giants Thread

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

We're going to be scrambling for a rotation in 2014, that's for damn sure unless the minors are further along than we all anticipate by the end of the season.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

We're going to be scrambling for a rotation in 2014, that's for damn sure unless the minors are further along than we all anticipate by the end of the season.

I guess I look at it a little differently. I'm just not sure how realistic it is to win 2 titles in 3 years, go into the 4th year of chasing a ring with one of the best (and most expensive) starting staffs in the league, have 1-2 viable options waiting in the wings AND have 2-3 legitimate starting options for the future. Building up for and actually having that type of on-the-field success while still being able to plan for every contingency just doesn't seem to be realistic in my mind.

When you start seeing success like the Giants have, you'd be crazy to let some of the key contributors walk so you make investments in them. That's the choice they made...invest in the guys that brought you to the dance as opposed to guys who didn't. And clearly, the Giants have invested heavily in the 5 starters that just brought home a ring last year.

When you do that, you just don't have the resources to have a quality 6th starter/swingman. And yes, we can talk about Wheeler, but that's spilled milk already...he ain't coming back so there's no point in that discussion. It was a bad move, but you can't undo it. Now, they do seem to have at least 3-4 quality young arms that look like long-term viable options, but no real can't miss prospect. Definitely one of the casualties of drafting in the bottom half every year since 2010 because before that, we were drafting pretty high and hitting on some winners (Wheeler, Posey, MadBum, Timmy).

To me it's clear...they made the choice to go with these 5 starters for better or for worse knowing that if things swung their way, they could very easily make a run for a 3rd ring in 4 years with them. If that happens, I honestly don't care too much about 2014 and I suspect the front office feels that way too.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on May 16, 2013 at 2:48 PM ]
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.

Major recognized nicknames are something all baseball fans should know of. A few people on McCovey Chronicles calling him "Fat Ichiro" doesnt count. If you asked someone in New York or Chicago who "Fat Ichiro" was, nobody would know. I just think its a stretch to list those as official nicknames.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.

Major recognized nicknames are something all baseball fans should know of. A few people on McCovey Chronicles calling him "Fat Ichiro" doesnt count. If you asked someone in New York or Chicago who "Fat Ichiro" was, nobody would know. I just think its a stretch to list those as official nicknames.

This on sportscenter you didn't hear them saying and Fat Ichiro hit a 3 run homer in the 4th to give the Giants a 5-2 lead...
Not a widely known or used nickname. Also stupid
I don't get it...all we do is serve HRs
This is turning into a nightmare road trip.
Starting pitching is non-existent.
I can't recall ever seeing so much collective downward spirals from great pitchers. It is almost as if Lincy, Cain and Vogey made a deal with the devil
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

We're going to be scrambling for a rotation in 2014, that's for damn sure unless the minors are further along than we all anticipate by the end of the season.

I guess I look at it a little differently. I'm just not sure how realistic it is to win 2 titles in 3 years, go into the 4th year of chasing a ring with one of the best (and most expensive) starting staffs in the league, have 1-2 viable options waiting in the wings AND have 2-3 legitimate starting options for the future. Building up for and actually having that type of on-the-field success while still being able to plan for every contingency just doesn't seem to be realistic in my mind.

When you start seeing success like the Giants have, you'd be crazy to let some of the key contributors walk so you make investments in them. That's the choice they made...invest in the guys that brought you to the dance as opposed to guys who didn't. And clearly, the Giants have invested heavily in the 5 starters that just brought home a ring last year.

When you do that, you just don't have the resources to have a quality 6th starter/swingman. And yes, we can talk about Wheeler, but that's spilled milk already...he ain't coming back so there's no point in that discussion. It was a bad move, but you can't undo it. Now, they do seem to have at least 3-4 quality young arms that look like long-term viable options, but no real can't miss prospect. Definitely one of the casualties of drafting in the bottom half every year since 2010 because before that, we were drafting pretty high and hitting on some winners (Wheeler, Posey, MadBum, Timmy).

To me it's clear...they made the choice to go with these 5 starters for better or for worse knowing that if things swung their way, they could very easily make a run for a 3rd ring in 4 years with them. If that happens, I honestly don't care too much about 2014 and I suspect the front office feels that way too.

well said. I agree with everything except for the Zack Wheeler part. Gents it is May of 2013 and Wheeler has contributed zero to the New York Mets. Speculation aside, the Giants actually received MLB production from Beltran
Originally posted by danimal:
I can't recall ever seeing so much collective downward spirals from great pitchers. It is almost as if Lincy, Cain and Vogey made a deal with the devil

Plus Zito has only pitched well at home.
Originally posted by AXEGRINDER:
Originally posted by danimal:
I can't recall ever seeing so much collective downward spirals from great pitchers. It is almost as if Lincy, Cain and Vogey made a deal with the devil

Plus Zito has only pitched well at home.

Timmy made his deal well before the others. Zito is just Zito.
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