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2013 San Francisco Giants Thread

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by vrabbit:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by VaBeachNiner:
Originally posted by pdizo916:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
How long are they going to keep pretending Vogelsuck is going to turn things around? At least with Lincecum last year, he'd still show flashes that made you think he can maybe fix this, then of course there's the whole back-to-back Cy Young thing. Vogelsong doesn't have that pedigree, and certainly never had that kind of stuff. He should not start another game...whether that means going to the pen, sending him down, or outright release, I don't know, but he's just not even close to getting it done..

Take that back. Without him and his performance in game 6, we wouldn't be champs. I know that he's struggling and he's the odd man out if the G's acquire a pitcher, but show the man some respect, please.

Word has it that Bochy hasnt decided if Vogey will pitch on Monday.

I still dont know who the alternative would be. They do not have a pitcher in the minors that is close to being ready. Their AAA sps suck and their good prospects are in lower levels and 2 years away at best.


They don't have an arm in the minors capable of posting maybe just a 5.00 or even 6.00 ERA? If an organization can't replace a guy who has been throwing puss up to the plate and getting rocked almost every time he takes the hill, then I guess there is a problem. Your alternative then is to just pencil in an L every fifth day.

Maybe you would prefer these guys who are their AAA starters:
Boof Bonser 5.31 era and 1.82 whip
Yusmero Petit 6.69 era and 1.54 whip
Chris Heston 6.18 era and 1.76 whip

pretty attractive isnt it?

Vogelsong is a concern obviously but it is not time to completely give up on him when there is NO better alternative in the organization right now. He was good enough several months ago to be a stud for this team in the playoffs and good enough to pitch for team USA in the WBC. Good try on the alternative being just to pencil in a L every day though.

Shane Loux might actually be worth considering if Vogey had to miss a few starts due to a "tired arm." He's got the best ERA among all the Fresno starters (4.40) and the best WHIP (1.43). I definitely think Vogey will be fine, but it might be time for him to skip a few starts to get his mind/arm right. And right now, you really couldn't do much worse than what he's done the last month.

no thanks, rather throw Vogey out there every 5th day

Agreed. Shane Loux is garbage.

He's throwing better than Vogey right now. I think that's the point.

Is he? 14 walks and just 11 Ks in 30 innings. Striking out just 11 guys in 30 innings in the minors is prettt funny. Not sure he is facing too many Edwin Encarnacions, Jose Bautistas, or Melky Cabreras there.

I think the Giants best course of action is to stick with Vogelsong for now. If there is a trade out there that makes sense and Sabean doesnt give up a top prospect then go for it. But, short of that I still believe he has better stuff than a Shane Loux or a Yusmero Petit.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by vrabbit:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by VaBeachNiner:
Originally posted by pdizo916:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
How long are they going to keep pretending Vogelsuck is going to turn things around? At least with Lincecum last year, he'd still show flashes that made you think he can maybe fix this, then of course there's the whole back-to-back Cy Young thing. Vogelsong doesn't have that pedigree, and certainly never had that kind of stuff. He should not start another game...whether that means going to the pen, sending him down, or outright release, I don't know, but he's just not even close to getting it done..

Take that back. Without him and his performance in game 6, we wouldn't be champs. I know that he's struggling and he's the odd man out if the G's acquire a pitcher, but show the man some respect, please.

Word has it that Bochy hasnt decided if Vogey will pitch on Monday.

I still dont know who the alternative would be. They do not have a pitcher in the minors that is close to being ready. Their AAA sps suck and their good prospects are in lower levels and 2 years away at best.


They don't have an arm in the minors capable of posting maybe just a 5.00 or even 6.00 ERA? If an organization can't replace a guy who has been throwing puss up to the plate and getting rocked almost every time he takes the hill, then I guess there is a problem. Your alternative then is to just pencil in an L every fifth day.

Maybe you would prefer these guys who are their AAA starters:
Boof Bonser 5.31 era and 1.82 whip
Yusmero Petit 6.69 era and 1.54 whip
Chris Heston 6.18 era and 1.76 whip

pretty attractive isnt it?

Vogelsong is a concern obviously but it is not time to completely give up on him when there is NO better alternative in the organization right now. He was good enough several months ago to be a stud for this team in the playoffs and good enough to pitch for team USA in the WBC. Good try on the alternative being just to pencil in a L every day though.

Shane Loux might actually be worth considering if Vogey had to miss a few starts due to a "tired arm." He's got the best ERA among all the Fresno starters (4.40) and the best WHIP (1.43). I definitely think Vogey will be fine, but it might be time for him to skip a few starts to get his mind/arm right. And right now, you really couldn't do much worse than what he's done the last month.

no thanks, rather throw Vogey out there every 5th day

Agreed. Shane Loux is garbage.

He's throwing better than Vogey right now. I think that's the point.

Is he? 14 walks and just 11 Ks in 30 innings. Striking out just 11 guys in 30 innings in the minors is prettt funny. Not sure he is facing too many Edwin Encarnacions, Jose Bautistas, or Melky Cabreras there.

I think the Giants best course of action is to stick with Vogelsong for now. If there is a trade out there that makes sense and Sabean doesnt give up a top prospect then go for it. But, short of that I still believe he has better stuff than a Shane Loux or a Yusmero Petit.

I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).

I really don't think it's worth bringing anyone up over just yet. They should skip at least one of his starts and have a bullpen game and go from there. He looks like he is laboring only a few pitches into his outings and starts to lose location on his pitches almost immediately. I have faith he'll get right, you don't go from a pretty f**king good pitcher and probably one of our best if not the best in the playoffs last year to a failure in 6 months.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).

I really don't think it's worth bringing anyone up over just yet. They should skip at least one of his starts and have a bullpen game and go from there. He looks like he is laboring only a few pitches into his outings and starts to lose location on his pitches almost immediately. I have faith he'll get right, you don't go from a pretty f**king good pitcher and probably one of our best if not the best in the playoffs last year to a failure in 6 months.

Agreed, even skipping one start makes sense. I just don't think you keep throwing the guy out there when he's obviously not effective and hasn't been for a month.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.
Jeremy Affeldt Returned $500,000 The Giants Paid Him By Mistake
Regarding Vogelsong, another idea is to find a way to get him on the 15 DL, have Chad Gaudin start 2 or 3 games and then bring up Machi as a middle reliever. Hopefully in a couple weeks time Vogelsong would start pitching better. I'm with Ninerjohn regarding Fresno starters, they all suck and I would continue throw Vogelsong out their every 5th day for better or worse than bring up a Fresno starter. Their are promising arms at Augusta and San Jose but as Ninerjohn already stated they are 2-3 years away.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).

My point about Loux was that he has only 11 Ks in 30 innings facing minor league hitters. Plus, we have seen his stuff before. He is garbage. No way you sit Vogey for "a few weeks".

I think you have to trust that a good pitcher will turn it around and that May 15th is too early to panic. Look at Jonathon Niese. ERA of 5.93, whip of 1.75 and 50 hits in 31 ips. Yet, he has gone in today in STL against a very good hitting team and given up 1 run (in the 7th now).

I just dont think there are ANY good alternatives. I would give him through the end of this month as a minimum to get it straightened out. At most I would rest him for 1 start assuming he might have a bit of a dead arm.
So the Giants don't like Canada it seems
Originally posted by JerryRice1848:
So the Giants don't like Canada it seems

Nope. Talk about a stupid schedule too. They fly all the way to Toronto for 2 games and then back to Colorado. MLB couldnt have had them fit Toronto in when the Giants flew in to play the Mets?
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).

My point about Loux was that he has only 11 Ks in 30 innings facing minor league hitters. Plus, we have seen his stuff before. He is garbage. No way you sit Vogey for "a few weeks".

I think you have to trust that a good pitcher will turn it around and that May 15th is too early to panic. Look at Jonathon Niese. ERA of 5.93, whip of 1.75 and 50 hits in 31 ips. Yet, he has gone in today in STL against a very good hitting team and given up 1 run (in the 7th now).

I just dont think there are ANY good alternatives. I would give him through the end of this month as a minimum to get it straightened out. At most I would rest him for 1 start assuming he might have a bit of a dead arm.

I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Vogey is a soon-to-be 36 year-old former journeyman pitcher who was a literal nobody until very recently. Apples and oranges, IMO.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options; I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch. I have no particular fondness for Loux nor do I see him as an effective MLB pitcher anytime soon...again, sort of like how Vogey was before we signed him 2011.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on May 16, 2013 at 1:27 PM ]
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.
Originally posted by Muggins:
Jeremy Affeldt Returned $500,000 The Giants Paid Him By Mistake

amazing story that never gets any pub. When players do something like this, it almost goes un noticed.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say a few starts (and more specifically, 2). Not sure why I originally wrote weeks when I mean to say 2 starts (which was in my head but didn't come out in my post....brain fart on my part).
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on May 16, 2013 at 1:33 PM ]
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