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2013 San Francisco Giants Thread

Originally posted by Niners99:
Ill give Sabean credit for the Melky and Pagan trades, but he doesnt get credit for the others.

He traded for Marco Scutaro to add MIF depth, not because he knew Scutaro would get white hot and carry the team to the WS. He reaped the benefit of a well timed hot streak, but nobody couldve predicted that run.

Blanco was just a filler guy they signed for ST with a bunch of others like him, and he played his way onto the team. Bochy is the one who decided Blanco should be part of the team.

The Pence trade was pretty obvious. It didnt take a baseball genius to figure out that the Giants needed a bat, and that Hunter Pence made a ton of sense at the time. He got it done, but the market for Pence made the deal fairly easy.

KC gave us Mijares for free. A no brainer. quality young lefty under team control for a while, and for whatever reason they said "its on the house".

Theriot and Arias were both also Bochy calls. Like Blanco, both were basically added to fill roles, and they both won jobs out of ST. Bochy made the call of Theriot over Fontenot.

Even in 2010, Sabean was up to his old, stubborn ways of sitting on his hands in the winter, and then scrounging towards the end for old vets for cheap. He got Huff from the bargain bin, not because he saw a career year and a title run, but because of his Steve Finley signing type habits. Alot of things that year fell into place. Sabean built the teams, so he gets his due, but that doesnt mean hes a great GM. It means hes knows how to field a solid team, and the scouting dept. did a phenomenal job giving him a bunch of aces in the rotation to put them over the top.

I give most all the credit to Bruce Bochy and his staff, the scouting dept., and the players. Right smack dab in the middle of our title seasons, theres Sabean making one of his most colossal bonehead moves of all time. Keith Law still uses that trade as an example of why you can never discount a GM making a stupid move.

I've been away for two days trying to catch up and just started reading but couldn't pass by this one. Really? Teams just come to Sabean (nobody else) and give players away. Scutaro...all luck. Blanco...WTF, just another lucky signing. 2010? Goddam, we were just lucky to win a WS in spite of Sabean. Just like this year.

So Sabean makes colossal bonehead moves of all times and the Giants still win two out of the last three. Stop embarrassing yourself. It's laughable.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by Garcia:
^^^^ this is comical.

exactly

It really is. I am not Sabean's biggest fan but to say he doesnt get credit for picking up Scutaro, Mijares, Blanco, etc.. is silly. Scutaro was a wise pick up regardless of whether anyone thought he would be awesome for them. Really, Sabean has made 1 horrible move but other than that he has done a good job the past 3 years. Other than Beltran-Wheeler (which I am still upset about) his trades have been good.

I dont think I will ever be one of Sabean's biggest fans but 2 titles in 3 years has to give him props. I just hope he doesnt mess up in free agency. That has always been his biggest weakenss.

Thanks john, 99 is being ridiculous. I agree, not all moves have worked but the post 99 made was unbelievably laughable.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Well that is a different story of course. 99 wasnt talking about contract. He was talking about the players ability. Sure, I wouldnt trade Belt for a player who would be a FA in a year.

Agree with this. As much as I've had issues with Belt, he did a good job down the stretch. He needs to work on being more aggressive in the strike zone, but I think he can do that. I don't believe he will ever be a big power hitter, but in our park that doesn't matter as much if you can hit to gaps. I think Belt will figure that out once he realizes that he is not going to be a 30+ HR guy.
Originally posted by dcsham:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Well that is a different story of course. 99 wasnt talking about contract. He was talking about the players ability. Sure, I wouldnt trade Belt for a player who would be a FA in a year.

Agree with this. As much as I've had issues with Belt, he did a good job down the stretch. He needs to work on being more aggressive in the strike zone, but I think he can do that. I don't believe he will ever be a big power hitter, but in our park that doesn't matter as much if you can hit to gaps. I think Belt will figure that out once he realizes that he is not going to be a 30+ HR guy.

I agree. Belt should improve and hit with more power next year. I just would trade him in a hearbeat for Jacoby Ellsbury if Ellsbury had 3-4 yrs still on his contact. Pretty sure most people (other than 99 of course) would. I would make that deal, put Ellsbury in CF, move Panda to first, and get a 3B.

Since that wont happen though, I am happy with Belt at 1B and his future with the Giants.
Originally posted by dcsham:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Ill give Sabean credit for the Melky and Pagan trades, but he doesnt get credit for the others.

He traded for Marco Scutaro to add MIF depth, not because he knew Scutaro would get white hot and carry the team to the WS. He reaped the benefit of a well timed hot streak, but nobody couldve predicted that run.

Blanco was just a filler guy they signed for ST with a bunch of others like him, and he played his way onto the team. Bochy is the one who decided Blanco should be part of the team.

The Pence trade was pretty obvious. It didnt take a baseball genius to figure out that the Giants needed a bat, and that Hunter Pence made a ton of sense at the time. He got it done, but the market for Pence made the deal fairly easy.

KC gave us Mijares for free. A no brainer. quality young lefty under team control for a while, and for whatever reason they said "its on the house".

Theriot and Arias were both also Bochy calls. Like Blanco, both were basically added to fill roles, and they both won jobs out of ST. Bochy made the call of Theriot over Fontenot.

Even in 2010, Sabean was up to his old, stubborn ways of sitting on his hands in the winter, and then scrounging towards the end for old vets for cheap. He got Huff from the bargain bin, not because he saw a career year and a title run, but because of his Steve Finley signing type habits. Alot of things that year fell into place. Sabean built the teams, so he gets his due, but that doesnt mean hes a great GM. It means hes knows how to field a solid team, and the scouting dept. did a phenomenal job giving him a bunch of aces in the rotation to put them over the top.

I give most all the credit to Bruce Bochy and his staff, the scouting dept., and the players. Right smack dab in the middle of our title seasons, theres Sabean making one of his most colossal bonehead moves of all time. Keith Law still uses that trade as an example of why you can never discount a GM making a stupid move.

I've been away for two days trying to catch up and just started reading but couldn't pass by this one. Really? Teams just come to Sabean (nobody else) and give players away. Scutaro...all luck. Blanco...WTF, just another lucky signing. 2010? Goddam, we were just lucky to win a WS in spite of Sabean. Just like this year.

So Sabean makes colossal bonehead moves of all times and the Giants still win two out of the last three. Stop embarrassing yourself. It's laughable.

Alright, alright, calm down. I never said Sabean didnt deserve any credit. But if you dont admit things went right that were beyond his control, youre kidding yourself.

He did a great job in finding Marco Scutaro. At the time, we needed MIF help, and he traded a mediocre prospect to get a solid veteran. I give him credit for making that trade, but not for the way Scutaro would basically became Pete Rose and marched the team to a WS victory. Sabean, and everyone else on the planet, thought he was a veteran leader who would provide professional all around skills to the team. Nobody saw him hoisting a NLCS MVP trophy. I guarantee you after seeing it unfold, Sabean thought to himself "holy ****, im so glad O'Dowd went for that offer". He wasnt going "excellent....excellent...all according to plan!"

Sabean makes moves he thinks will get the job done, but he can only try and add parts he thinks will help. If Cody Ross or Scutaro had gone ice cold down the stretch, nobody would be talking about what great moves he made, even though their slumps/hot streaks have nothing to do with him.

He's made some nice moves in the last few years, and things worked out. Some of it was him putting us in a better situation, but some of it was also totally out of his control. We had bounces go our way in both title runs. Brooks Conrad and Scott Rolen alone couldve changed things dramatically.

Sabean makes some nice moves, and he makes some really bone-headed ones. I would prefer a GM with a less old school philosophy, who was willing to break the mold a bit, but you could do worse than Sabean. I just took issue with people giving him all this major credit for the rings the team won.

and BTW dc, we DID get Mijares for free. For whatever reason he fell all the way through waivers, and the Royals said "just take him".

"The Royals continued their early August shakeup Monday afternoon by allowing left-handed reliever José Mijares to depart to San Francisco in a waiver claim for no compensation beyond the $20,000 fee."
[ Edited by Niners99 on Nov 12, 2012 at 1:01 AM ]
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 30,367
Originally posted by Niners99:
Alright, alright, calm down. I never said Sabean didnt deserve any credit. But if you dont admit things went right that were beyond his control, youre kidding yourself.

He did a great job in finding Marco Scutaro. At the time, we needed MIF help, and he traded a mediocre prospect to get a solid veteran. I give him credit for making that trade, but not for the way Scutaro would basically became Pete Rose and marched the team to a WS victory. Sabean, and everyone else on the planet, thought he was a veteran leader who would provide professional all around skills to the team. Nobody saw him hoisting a NLCS MVP trophy. I guarantee you after seeing it unfold, Sabean thought to himself "holy ****, im so glad O'Dowd went for that offer". He wasnt going "excellent....excellent...all according to plan!"

Sabean makes moves he thinks will get the job done, but he can only try and add parts he thinks will help. If Cody Ross or Scutaro had gone ice cold down the stretch, nobody would be talking about what great moves he made, even though their slumps/hot streaks have nothing to do with him.

He's made some nice moves in the last few years, and things worked out. Some of it was him putting us in a better situation, but some of it was also totally out of his control. We had bounces go our way in both title runs. Brooks Conrad and Scott Rolen alone couldve changed things dramatically.

Sabean makes some nice moves, and he makes some really bone-headed ones. I would prefer a GM with a less old school philosophy, who was willing to break the mold a bit, but you could do worse than Sabean. I just took issue with people giving him all this major credit for the rings the team won.

Dude.

All the GM's job is to assemble a team that has the best chance to win. Whether or not they perform is up to the player not the GM, you got to give the GM credit for when moves go wrong..... and when they go right. You can't have it only one way.

The bottom line is with the drafts / prospects we have assembled, free agents, and trades in the last 5 years to aquire a core group of guys to win 2 world series championships in 3 years is down right remarkable.

Of course it takes an entire organization to win a championship. Good ownership, scouting and FO and management and player development. Then the players have to go out and play.

But by no means should you degrade moves that Sabean made because the player "outperformed expectation"... that doesn't make any sense to me. But Sabean definitely has played a vital role in both of our titles. You can't argue with results.
[ Edited by Garcia on Nov 12, 2012 at 1:04 AM ]
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by dcsham:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Well that is a different story of course. 99 wasnt talking about contract. He was talking about the players ability. Sure, I wouldnt trade Belt for a player who would be a FA in a year.

Agree with this. As much as I've had issues with Belt, he did a good job down the stretch. He needs to work on being more aggressive in the strike zone, but I think he can do that. I don't believe he will ever be a big power hitter, but in our park that doesn't matter as much if you can hit to gaps. I think Belt will figure that out once he realizes that he is not going to be a 30+ HR guy.

I agree. Belt should improve and hit with more power next year. I just would trade him in a hearbeat for Jacoby Ellsbury if Ellsbury had 3-4 yrs still on his contact. Pretty sure most people (other than 99 of course) would. I would make that deal, put Ellsbury in CF, move Panda to first, and get a 3B.

Since that wont happen though, I am happy with Belt at 1B and his future with the Giants.

I just dont like Ellsbury. Never have. He clearly has the skills to be a very nice player, but hes hurt WAY too often. I wouldnt trade Belt for him, not because I think Belt is the more talented player, but because Ellsbury gets hurt too darn much.

The power he displayed in 2011 was an anomaly. He had NEVER hit even 10 HR at any level in his 5 years of pro baseball before 2011. Coming from a park like Fenway, to AT&T? As a lefty? Do you really trust that power? You dont just jump from never hitting 10 to hitting 32 HR in one season out of the blue.

He's 29, injury prone, and has been an elite player just once.

Maybe im higher on Belt than some others are, but we have ourselves a very nice 1B of the future. He plays top tier defense, he gets on base, and hes learning to harness the pop in his bat. And in just his 3rd pro season, hes way ahead of schedule. Id rather wait and see what we have in Belt than roll the dice on a speed guy nearing age 30, who cant stay healthy.

Just my opinion though John, although I dont see how its so outrageous.
Originally posted by Garcia:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Alright, alright, calm down. I never said Sabean didnt deserve any credit. But if you dont admit things went right that were beyond his control, youre kidding yourself.

He did a great job in finding Marco Scutaro. At the time, we needed MIF help, and he traded a mediocre prospect to get a solid veteran. I give him credit for making that trade, but not for the way Scutaro would basically became Pete Rose and marched the team to a WS victory. Sabean, and everyone else on the planet, thought he was a veteran leader who would provide professional all around skills to the team. Nobody saw him hoisting a NLCS MVP trophy. I guarantee you after seeing it unfold, Sabean thought to himself "holy ****, im so glad O'Dowd went for that offer". He wasnt going "excellent....excellent...all according to plan!"

Sabean makes moves he thinks will get the job done, but he can only try and add parts he thinks will help. If Cody Ross or Scutaro had gone ice cold down the stretch, nobody would be talking about what great moves he made, even though their slumps/hot streaks have nothing to do with him.

He's made some nice moves in the last few years, and things worked out. Some of it was him putting us in a better situation, but some of it was also totally out of his control. We had bounces go our way in both title runs. Brooks Conrad and Scott Rolen alone couldve changed things dramatically.

Sabean makes some nice moves, and he makes some really bone-headed ones. I would prefer a GM with a less old school philosophy, who was willing to break the mold a bit, but you could do worse than Sabean. I just took issue with people giving him all this major credit for the rings the team won.

Dude.

All the GM's job is to assemble a team that has the best chance to win. Whether or not they perform is up to the player not the GM, you got to give the GM credit for when moves go wrong..... and when they go right. You can't have it only one way.

The bottom line is with the drafts / prospects we have assembled, free agents, and trades in the last 5 years to aquire a core group of guys to win 2 world series championships in 3 years is down right remarkable.

Of course it takes an entire organization to win a championship. Good ownership, scouting and FO and management and player development. Then the players have to go out and play.

But by no means should you degrade moves that Sabean made because the player "outperformed expectation"... that doesn't make any sense to me. But Sabean definitely has played a vital role in both of our titles. You can't argue with results.

Of course Sabean played a role, he put the team together. But he also had 130 mil. to work with, and a borderline HOF manager running the show. Like I said, Sabean DOES deserve credit, I just dont think he deserves the kind of credit hes being given by some people.

We won twice in 3 years. You cant argue with that, but when people say he played a major role in actually winning the rings, I have to disagree. He put the team in a good position to win with the budget he was given, and the team/coaching staff won the title.

Good job for putting a good team together Sabean, but after that, the team won the games. And lets not forget the ball bounced our way plenty. Otherwise another GM wouldve been getting a bunch of credit right now. As a GM with plenty of money to work with, you field the best team you can, and try to make the correct adjustments mid season. Then you sit back and hope for the best, and the team found a way to win. He did the best he could, and it worked out, but lets just not give him credit as if he took a small market payroll and made it happen.
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 30,367
Originally posted by Niners99:
Of course Sabean played a role, he put the team together. But he also had 130 mil. to work with, and a borderline HOF manager running the show. Like I said, Sabean DOES deserve credit, I just dont think he deserves the kind of credit hes being given by some people.

We won twice in 3 years. You cant argue with that, but when people say he played a major role in actually winning the rings, I have to disagree. He put the team in a good position to win with the budget he was given, and the team/coaching staff won the title.

Good job for putting a good team together Sabean, but after that, the team won the games. And lets not forget the ball bounced our way plenty. Otherwise another GM wouldve been getting a bunch of credit right now. As a GM with plenty of money to work with, you field the best team you can, and try to make the correct adjustments mid season. Then you sit back and hope for the best, and the team found a way to win. He did the best he could, and it worked out, but lets just not give him credit as if he took a small market payroll and made it happen.

So by your logic you could apply what your saying to all the GMs in the league?
Not just Sabean. Right?

Small market or not, we aren't the yankees. The core of the team is drafted or signed from south america and developed through the system. That credit goes to the GM and our Scouting staff. Home grown talent. That's the main job of a GM - and then you fill the holes on your team when and where you can with FA/Trades and Brian Sabean has done that and then some. He has assembled a team that is built to win now and in the future.

He hired the manager.
Don't forget that. If it wasn't for him, Boch wouldn't be here.

What else do you want from him? You want the ownership to cut the payroll to 50 million and say? Now show me your a good GM? I don't get it.
Originally posted by Garcia:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Of course Sabean played a role, he put the team together. But he also had 130 mil. to work with, and a borderline HOF manager running the show. Like I said, Sabean DOES deserve credit, I just dont think he deserves the kind of credit hes being given by some people.

We won twice in 3 years. You cant argue with that, but when people say he played a major role in actually winning the rings, I have to disagree. He put the team in a good position to win with the budget he was given, and the team/coaching staff won the title.

Good job for putting a good team together Sabean, but after that, the team won the games. And lets not forget the ball bounced our way plenty. Otherwise another GM wouldve been getting a bunch of credit right now. As a GM with plenty of money to work with, you field the best team you can, and try to make the correct adjustments mid season. Then you sit back and hope for the best, and the team found a way to win. He did the best he could, and it worked out, but lets just not give him credit as if he took a small market payroll and made it happen.

So by your logic you could apply what your saying to all the GMs in the league?
Not just Sabean. Right?

Small market or not, we aren't the yankees. The core of the team is drafted or signed from south america and developed through the system. That credit goes to the GM and our Scouting staff. Home grown talent. That's the main job of a GM - and then you fill the holes on your team when and where you can with FA/Trades and Brian Sabean has done that and then some. He has assembled a team that is built to win now and in the future.

He hired the manager.
Don't forget that. If it wasn't for him, Boch wouldn't be here.

What else do you want from him? You want the ownership to cut the payroll to 50 million and say? Now show me your a good GM? I don't get it.

Youre looking way too into it. Its not that complicated. Sabean put the team in a good spot to win. Thats the credit he deserves. Thats the credit most GM's deserve. When guys like Andrew Friedman take a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in a dominant division with a small payroll, they get more credit than the GM's who have room for error, like Brian Cashman.

Brian Sabean put together a good team, and made some good moves throughout the season. We ended up winning the WS. Thumbs up to Sabean, he made it happen. He traded for Scutaro, but after that point things happened that made the move look very smart. If Scutaro had continued on like the way he was playing with COL this season, the move wouldve looked expectedly minor. Sabean getting extra credit for the way Scutaro was able to play doesnt seem appropriate, considering it was so surprisingly unexpected.
[ Edited by Niners99 on Nov 12, 2012 at 2:07 AM ]
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Frisco69ers:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:
Emmanuel Burriss Opts For Free Agency

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/emmanuel-burriss-opts-for-free-agency.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Dont let the door hit you on the way out Burriss...

Burriss >>> Sanchez

lol so? Theyre both useless.

Sanchez is far from useless when he's on the field.
Originally posted by SFrush:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Frisco69ers:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by jrg:
Emmanuel Burriss Opts For Free Agency

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/11/emmanuel-burriss-opts-for-free-agency.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Dont let the door hit you on the way out Burriss...

Burriss >>> Sanchez

lol so? Theyre both useless.

Sanchez is far from useless when he's on the field.


yeah 25 games a year
Originally posted by Niners99:
Youre looking way too into it. Its not that complicated. Sabean put the team in a good spot to win. Thats the credit he deserves. Thats the credit most GM's deserve. When guys like Andrew Friedman take a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in a dominant division with a small payroll, they get more credit than the GM's who have room for error, like Brian Cashman.

Brian Sabean put together a good team, and made some good moves throughout the season. We ended up winning the WS. Thumbs up to Sabean, he made it happen. He traded for Scutaro, but after that point things happened that made the move look very smart. If Scutaro had continued on like the way he was playing with COL this season, the move wouldve looked expectedly minor. Sabean getting extra credit for the way Scutaro was able to play doesnt seem appropriate, considering it was so surprisingly unexpected.

I think you are trying to hard here bro. The SF Giants had never won a World Series and he put together a team (s) that won 2 out of 3. He gets credit, no matter where it happened.
Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Youre looking way too into it. Its not that complicated. Sabean put the team in a good spot to win. Thats the credit he deserves. Thats the credit most GM's deserve. When guys like Andrew Friedman take a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in a dominant division with a small payroll, they get more credit than the GM's who have room for error, like Brian Cashman.

Brian Sabean put together a good team, and made some good moves throughout the season. We ended up winning the WS. Thumbs up to Sabean, he made it happen. He traded for Scutaro, but after that point things happened that made the move look very smart. If Scutaro had continued on like the way he was playing with COL this season, the move wouldve looked expectedly minor. Sabean getting extra credit for the way Scutaro was able to play doesnt seem appropriate, considering it was so surprisingly unexpected.

I think you are trying to hard here bro. The SF Giants had never won a World Series and he put together a team (s) that won 2 out of 3. He gets credit, no matter where it happened.

I agree. And.. this is coming from Rubber and me who have been very critical of Sabean in ths past. Sure, there were fortunate things that happened. Sure, Scutaro's performance was a surprise. BUT, if Sabean doesnt pull the trigger on him on a great trade the Giants dont win it. II dont think Sabean is a baseball genius by any stretch but he has to get a lot of credit.
Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Youre looking way too into it. Its not that complicated. Sabean put the team in a good spot to win. Thats the credit he deserves. Thats the credit most GM's deserve. When guys like Andrew Friedman take a team from a bottom feeder to a contender in a dominant division with a small payroll, they get more credit than the GM's who have room for error, like Brian Cashman.

Brian Sabean put together a good team, and made some good moves throughout the season. We ended up winning the WS. Thumbs up to Sabean, he made it happen. He traded for Scutaro, but after that point things happened that made the move look very smart. If Scutaro had continued on like the way he was playing with COL this season, the move wouldve looked expectedly minor. Sabean getting extra credit for the way Scutaro was able to play doesnt seem appropriate, considering it was so surprisingly unexpected.

I think you are trying to hard here bro. The SF Giants had never won a World Series and he put together a team (s) that won 2 out of 3. He gets credit, no matter where it happened.

People can and will always find a way to diminish (or not give full praise and credit for) someone's accomplishments that they have a personal bias against, especially if they've publicly criticized that person in the past. That would mean they were flat-out wrong and completely off-base in their critiques...and for some people, that would be damn near impossible to admit. So they parse or hedge, unwilling to just say, "hey, dude made all the right moves, those moves led to a ring and he deserves all the praise he gets, warranted or not. Victori spolia ire!"
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