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Is D.Jeter the greatest Yankee of all time?

Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

lol at Joe Morgan

Dude was not a HOF type player before he went to the Reds


also he played 1154 Gs for the Reds and 1032 for the Astros
[ Edited by valrod33 on Jul 11, 2011 at 1:49 PM ]
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

LOL. It cracks me up that you DON'T think Delgado is better. You ever look at his stats? And way to back track and try and just say position players when you specifically said before not just hitter, but player...and btw, you ever hear of Frank Thomas? Or Jeff Bagwell (or even Craig Biggio)? Not just Larry Walker, Todd Helton as well...and it won't be long until Tulowitzki passes him. David Wright and Garret Anderson are also probably better. How about Nolan Ryan or Juan Gonzalez or Manny Ramirez? How have you never heard of any of these guys? Oh, and Randy played 8 years with the D'Backs and his '99-'02 is one of the best 4 year stretches ever. And Gwynn is without a doubt better. Except for the Marlins and Rays, who have very short histories, Jeter would not be the best player on ANY team.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

LOL. It cracks me up that you DON'T think Delgado is better. You ever look at his stats? And way to back track and try and just say position players when you specifically said before not just hitter, but player...and btw, you ever hear of Frank Thomas? Or Jeff Bagwell (or even Craig Biggio)? Not just Larry Walker, Todd Helton as well...and it won't be long until Tulowitzki passes him. David Wright and Garret Anderson are also probably better. How about Nolan Ryan or Juan Gonzalez or Manny Ramirez? How have you never heard of any of these guys? Oh, and Randy played 8 years with the D'Backs and his '99-'02 is one of the best 4 year stretches ever. And Gwynn is without a doubt better. Except for the Marlins and Rays, who have very short histories, Jeter would not be the best player on ANY team.

While I think it's asinine to call Jeter better than Gwinn, you are really reaching on some of your players (David Wright, Juan Gonzales, Garrett Anderson (lol), Carlos Delgado). You seem to place a higher value on HR's and not on a player's overall impact over a span of an entire career.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

LOL. It cracks me up that you DON'T think Delgado is better. You ever look at his stats? And way to back track and try and just say position players when you specifically said before not just hitter, but player...and btw, you ever hear of Frank Thomas? Or Jeff Bagwell (or even Craig Biggio)? Not just Larry Walker, Todd Helton as well...and it won't be long until Tulowitzki passes him. David Wright and Garret Anderson are also probably better. How about Nolan Ryan or Juan Gonzalez or Manny Ramirez? How have you never heard of any of these guys? Oh, and Randy played 8 years with the D'Backs and his '99-'02 is one of the best 4 year stretches ever. And Gwynn is without a doubt better. Except for the Marlins and Rays, who have very short histories, Jeter would not be the best player on ANY team.

Anyone who would put Carlos Delgado, David Wright, Juan Gonzalez, Garret Anderson, Larry Walker, or Jeff Bagwell as better players than Derek Jeter knows nothing about baseball. Sorry. . you just dont.

As for Manny.. really? What team would you put him on that he would be the great player over Jeter? Oh ya.. the Red Sox. Notice I didnt include the Sox.
[ Edited by Ninerjohn on Jul 11, 2011 at 2:25 PM ]
Manny on the Indians, pretty identical numbers with them
Originally posted by valrod33:
Manny on the Indians, pretty identical numbers with them

I dont agree that Manny on the Indians was a greater player than Jeter for the Yankees. But, I will give Cleveland as a team where he wouldnt be the best because of Tris Speaker and Bob Feller.
atleast Michael Young is a way better comp then Juan Gonzalez.

Juan Gonzalez haha
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
atleast Michael Young is a way better comp then Juan Gonzalez.

Juan Gonzalez haha

No doubt about that one!
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

LOL. It cracks me up that you DON'T think Delgado is better. You ever look at his stats? And way to back track and try and just say position players when you specifically said before not just hitter, but player...and btw, you ever hear of Frank Thomas? Or Jeff Bagwell (or even Craig Biggio)? Not just Larry Walker, Todd Helton as well...and it won't be long until Tulowitzki passes him. David Wright and Garret Anderson are also probably better. How about Nolan Ryan or Juan Gonzalez or Manny Ramirez? How have you never heard of any of these guys? Oh, and Randy played 8 years with the D'Backs and his '99-'02 is one of the best 4 year stretches ever. And Gwynn is without a doubt better. Except for the Marlins and Rays, who have very short histories, Jeter would not be the best player on ANY team.

Anyone who would put Carlos Delgado, David Wright, Juan Gonzalez, Garret Anderson, Larry Walker, or Jeff Bagwell as better players than Derek Jeter knows nothing about baseball. Sorry. . you just dont.

As for Manny.. really? What did would you put him on that he would be the great player over Jeter? Oh ya.. the Red Sox. Notice I didnt include the Sox.

Sorry but stats tell 99% of the story in baseball...how can ANYONE look at Delgado's stats and not say they are better than Jeter's? How many other guys were better from '96-'04? How many 9 year stretches does Jeter have that at worst are like the 3rd best over that span? Juan Gon is arguably the best player of the 90's and he did it all for Texas and you think Jeter would be the best Ranger of all time? Was Manny on Boston in '98 and '99 and '00 when he was like something out of a video game? From '94-'00 with Cleveland, Manny slugged .521, .558, .582, .538, .599, .663, and .697. Yes Jeter is a shortstop, but considering he's topped .483 just once in his whole career, that discrepancy is far too enormous to be justified by simply pointing out the difference in position. He also twice had an OPS over 1.1...Jeter has never even hit 1 and has only gone higher than .900 once (Manny Was above .950 each of his last SIX years there, you won't find many superior 6 year stretches in baseball history). Look at Walker's and Bagwell's stats, MVP"s etc. How in the hell is Jeter better than them? Do you think he's better than the Big Hurt too? Elaborate how he is better than Helton because there is no way. Anderson is debatable but it doesn't matter- Jeter would not be the best Angel ever.
[ Edited by andes14 on Jul 11, 2011 at 2:50 PM ]
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
atleast Michael Young is a way better comp then Juan Gonzalez.

Juan Gonzalez haha

Uhhhhh.......
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
atleast Michael Young is a way better comp then Juan Gonzalez.

Juan Gonzalez haha

Uhhhhh.......

first off, if ur gonna use stats, atleast use baseball reference.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

LOL. It cracks me up that you DON'T think Delgado is better. You ever look at his stats? And way to back track and try and just say position players when you specifically said before not just hitter, but player...and btw, you ever hear of Frank Thomas? Or Jeff Bagwell (or even Craig Biggio)? Not just Larry Walker, Todd Helton as well...and it won't be long until Tulowitzki passes him. David Wright and Garret Anderson are also probably better. How about Nolan Ryan or Juan Gonzalez or Manny Ramirez? How have you never heard of any of these guys? Oh, and Randy played 8 years with the D'Backs and his '99-'02 is one of the best 4 year stretches ever. And Gwynn is without a doubt better. Except for the Marlins and Rays, who have very short histories, Jeter would not be the best player on ANY team.

Anyone who would put Carlos Delgado, David Wright, Juan Gonzalez, Garret Anderson, Larry Walker, or Jeff Bagwell as better players than Derek Jeter knows nothing about baseball. Sorry. . you just dont.

As for Manny.. really? What did would you put him on that he would be the great player over Jeter? Oh ya.. the Red Sox. Notice I didnt include the Sox.

Sorry but stats tell 99% of the story in baseball...how can ANYONE look at Delgado's stats and not say they are better than Jeter's? How many other guys were better from '96-'04? How many 9 year stretches does Jeter have that at worst are like the 3rd best over that span? Juan Gon is arguably the best player of the 90's and he did it all for Texas and you think Jeter would be the best Ranger of all time? Was Manny on Boston in '98 and '99 and '00 when he was like something out of a video game? From '94-'00 with Cleveland, Manny slugged .521, .558, .582, .538, .599, .663, and .697. Yes Jeter is a shortstop, but considering he's topped .483 just once in his whole career, that discrepancy is far too enormous to be justified by simply pointing out the difference in position. He also twice had an OPS over 1.1...Jeter has never even hit 1 and has only gone higher than .900 once (Manny Was above .950 each of his last SIX years there, you won't find many superior 6 year stretches in baseball history). Look at Walker's and Bagwell's stats, MVP"s etc. How in the hell is Jeter better than them? Do you think he's better than the Big Hurt too? Elaborate how he is better than Helton because there is no way. Anderson is debatable but it doesn't matter- Jeter would not be the best Angel ever.

LOL From now your name is StatMan because that is all you know how to do. Look at stats. You dont consider intangibles, defense, leadership, baserunning, longevity, titles won. NOPE.. Lets just look at OPS and see who was better over a 5 year stretch. Again, even putting Carlos Delgado in the same sentence as Jeter is a joke. One is a first ballot Hall of Famer. The other guy. well lets just say you have the same chance of getting in.